Will a Christian ever go to hell?

[av1611jim]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> BTW, just because I never went to seminary, do not assume that all KJVO's have not.

Perhaps one or two went to one of those seminaries that uses a pastor's basement for its campus, and has a smaller library than has my two-year-old grandson.

Nor should you assume that a seminary will ensure you have the proper view of doctrine any more than you should assume a public school education will give you a proper understanding of history. (or reading for that matter)

No, of course not, especially if it is a KJO “seminary” (actually, I believe that they call them Bible Institutes, a “school” where none of the faculty knows so much as what a college is).

And yes, there are some whacked-out seminaries, but there are also some excellent ones. And beside the seminaries, there are some fine universities where both the Old and News Testaments are extensively studied not only in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, but also in ancient translations into Latin, Syriac, Coptic, and Ethiopic. Can you name even one KJO who has even the academic qualifications to be admitted to one of these schools, let alone graduate with a doctorate from one of them?

KJOism is both a spiritual and an intellectual sickness that is so severe as to greatly handicap all those who suffer from it. And this same sickness so severely weakens both the spirit and the mind of those who are afflicted that they are susceptible even to the most foolish and demonic teachings, including those of Joey Faust.

Normal people, without this sickness, and with average intelligence and the determination to do so, can learn very much about the Bible without ever studying it in a seminary or university, and we have many such people on the message board.

</font>[/QUOTE]Craig;
If, as you say, this thread is NOT about levels of intelligence nor whether or not one is "educated" ; why then would you display such arrogance as the above quoted statements?
Whose criteria are you using for "normal people"?
You make sweeping charges that "none of the faculty knows so much as what a college is."; and then say this thread is not about our intelligence? Why then make such condemnatory statements such as you have posted?

Craig, shame on you. You are displaying the VERY SAME attitudes you have sweepingly condemned KJB believers of alledgedly doing. There is a word for this.
Then you accuse ME of being hypocritical?
You are WRONG Craig. This is NOT about purgatory. Should you learn a little something about purgatory you would know this.
In your blanket dismissal of the truth of accountability you are, by implication, saying that we are not accountable to God for our behavior after we are saved. That, my dear brother in Christ, is heresy. Evan Paul testifies against this when he says, "shall we sin all the more that grace may abound? God forbid!" (loosely quoted) Indeed, the WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE proclaims that God demands obedience of His children. Not to MAKE them His children, but BECAUSE they ARE His. Else how will the world know we are His unless we BEHAVE like it?

When you stepped off the subject to attack the training, education and intelligence of KJB believers, you left yourself open for someone to point out the error of your arrogance and uncalled for condemnatory charges.

In His service;
Jim
PS Yes Craig, I CAN name a KJVO who has the qualifications to be admitted to one of "your" schools. In fact he has a doctorate in Jurisprudence.
His name is David Gibb, director and founder of the Christian Law Association.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by DHK:
Jim, that was a quote from William Tyndale. If you were being honest and not hypocritical, you would be using Tyndale's translation, and not the KJV.

You guys kill me. You can't answer the arguments so you shoot subjective KJVO and Purgatory cannons (no-cannonballs) across the bough and I'm sure it makes you feel much better. BOOM!

I could send you a large list of respected scholars who were not KJVO, who went to a "respectable" seminary, and who believe in Millennial exclusion. You could go here and study for yourself.

http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/booksonline.htm

Lacy

[ September 14, 2004, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Lacy Evans ]

 

[av1611jim]

Craig;
Forgive me please, it was not you who accused my of being hypocritical.

DHK; rather than ACCUSE the brethren, perhaps you should be more like the Bereans?
In His service;
Jim

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
This thread is about the doctrine of purgatory. Even the Roman Catholic Church does not twist and distort the Gospels like Joey Faust does to “prove” this doctrine. Catholics simply have too much respect for the word of God to do such a thing. This tread, and the other threads arguing for the doctrine of purgatory, should, in my opinion, be moved to some Other Religions forum. Most certainly the doctrine of purgatory is NOT a Baptist doctrine.

It is ironic that someone with a view on salvation which is practically identical with RC theology (Conditional security) would accuse someone (who teaches the Baptist doctrine of Eternal security) of teaching Catholicism.

You have not proven with even one verse of scripture or one Biblical precedent that the doctrine of Millennial exclusion is similar to RC Purgatory.

For that matter your statement "Catholics simply have too much respect for the word of God to do such a thing." makes me wonder if you could (would) adequately refute the RC doctrine of purgatory.

The similarities are minimal and the differences profound. (Much the same way that Mass and The Lord's table use the same elements but then the similarities break down.)

Until you offer some (loaded) proof, (No more empty BOOMS!) your associating my beliefs with RC Purgatory is nothing more than subjective railing.

Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

double post

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
Craig;
Forgive me please, it was not you who accused my of being hypocritical.

DHK; rather than ACCUSE the brethren, perhaps you should be more like the Bereans?
In His service;
Jim

Jim, All that I am sayin is that you ought to be consistent. If you are going to use a quote from William Tyndale, and then insist on using the KJV, that is inconsistent. Why not use Tyndale's Bible from where you took the quote and be consistent. It was Tyndale who challenged the Anglican Bishop that he would put a Bible (his Bible) in the hand of every ploughman of England. And by his death he had. But it was the Tyndale Bible, not the KJV.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by James Newman:
I suppose I will have to start a new thread to discuss the differences between this doctrine and purgatory. Perhaps we can better understand why purgatory is not biblical if we contrast it with a scriptural view of chastisement. However, as Shakespear said, what's in a name?

DHK, where in the Bible does it say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[DHK]

There is no intermediate state. There is no "purgatory" concept in the Bible. Paul always taught that we would go straight to Heaven when we die. He looked for the imminent return for the Lord. He looked to be immediately with the Lord at death. He says it again in Philippians:

Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

To die is gain; not pain.

He was looking forward to seeing Christ--immediately, after his death. He would wait no longer.

Paul was confident of this thing:
2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

We would prefer to die. The same idea occurs in Php 1:23: "Having a desire to depart and to be with Christ; which is far better." The sense is, that Paul would have preferred to die, and to go to heaven, rather than to remain in a world of sin and trial. (Barnes)
DHK

 

[Lacy Evans]

Keep reading

2 Cor5:9
Wherefore we labour, F11 that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Most of us believe in eternal security. But the question here is not the Lord's presence, it is his acceptance. WE LABOUR! (That means work!), Not to be present, not to recieve the FREE GIFT, but to be accepted.

You have to divide it brother or you end up with Roman Catholic Salvation/assurance by works. They Labour to be saved. They labour for the gift. They labour for assurance. This is the heresy that millions of martyrs died for rejecting.

We labour to be accepted at the JSOC. (Where only Once-Saved-Always-Saved, Eternally secure believers appear and are present.) We labour for reward, for the prize, the crown.

Divide the Gift and the Prize. A little kid knows the difference.

When my Daddy was angry, when I was disobedient, his presence was the last thing I was worried about. He chastened me sore yet he never disowned me. When I was being chastened I was definately IN HIS PRESENCE. (Ouch)

Click Verse for Commentary Notes

Ps 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell,[ouch] behold, thou art there.

 

[av1611jim]

DHK;
First;(in order of importance) the scripture you have posted does NOT say that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. It says AND to be present with the Lord, not IS to be present with the Lord. Do you know the difference between the words, 'and' or 'is'? The two words are not the same. Not in English, nor in Greek, nor in Spanish for that matter. Therefore, your premise is false for it is based on a false reading of the given Scripture. You have commited isegesis, not exegesis. You have put in your doctrine rather than taken it out of Scripture.

Secondly; you are again in error. The quote is NOT from Tyndale's Bible. It is from his MOUTH. My statement had NOTHING to do with a Bible version. In context it was about the arrogance of SOME who think they are superior to others based solely on where they got their education. And YOU KNOW IT.

Thirdly, who says quoting a preacher and then using a different Bible than he is inconsistent? That is ridiculous! If that premise were true then you could NEVER quote Paul!!!! Or Ireneaus or Polycarp!
And no, again you are wrong. By the time Tyndale died, every plowman in England did NOT have the scriptures. That day was a long way off.
C'mon DHK, at least be historically accurate, if not reasonably accurate.
In His service;
Jim

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by DHK:
There is no intermediate state. There is no "purgatory" concept in the Bible. Paul always taught that we would go straight to Heaven when we die.

Re 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Re 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell F32 delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I don't see any verse in the Bible that says we ever "go to Heaven". Paul never mentions us "being in heaven". I'm not saying we don't go there, but this much I know: We don't do anything in heaven during the 1000 year reign of Christ. We'll either be here reigning with him or we're not.

 

[DHK]

Keep reading
quote:2 Cor5:9
Wherefore we labour, F11 that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The judgement seat of Christ is that which is described in 1Cor.3:11-15. It has nothing to do with any kind of "purgatory." It is a judgement of the "works" of the believers. If the works stand they shall gain reward. If the works do not stand the purifyin process they shall suffer a loss of reward. There is nothing of any punishment indicated those verses. We shall all give account, yes. But in 1Cor.3:11-15, the account is of the works that we do and do not do. It has nothing to do with punishment. You take Scripture out of context. My sin has already been paid for at the cross of calvary. I don't have to pay for them agan. You imply that the sufficiency of the blood of Christ was not enough to pay for the penalty of our sins.

Most of us believe in eternal security. But the question here is not the Lord's presence, it is his acceptance. WE LABOUR! (That means work!), Not to be present, not to recieve the FREE GIFT, but to be accepted.

Accepted in the Scripture. What does it mean? "Well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of thy Lord." The acceptance is one of degree, one of reward. It has nothing to do with salvation.
The entire sense of the verse is this:
Whether we labor: (that is labor on this earth with our eyes toward the coming of Christ with our reward in view), or whether we be absent (from this body) we will be accepted by the Lord.

You have to divide it brother or you end up with Roman Catholic Salvation/assurance by works. They Labour to be saved. They labour for the gift. They labour for assurance. This is the heresy that millions of martyrs died for rejecting.

One never labours to be saved. This is the heresy that you are expousing.

We labour to be accepted at the JSOC. (Where only Once-Saved-Always-Saved, Eternally secure believers appear and are present.) We labour for reward, for the prize, the crown.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith. It is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast." Either you believe it or not. Apparently you don't. Salvation is not of works. This is plain and simple. We labour. We will be rewarded for our labour at the judgement seat of Christ.

Divide the Gift and the Prize. A little kid knows the difference.
When my Daddy was angry, when I was disobedient, his presence was the last thing I was worried about. He chastened me sore yet he never disowned me. When I was being chastened I was definately IN HIS PRESENCE. (Ouch)

So God is not present with you now? Has He forsaken you altogether. Do you not believe you have the indwelling of His Spirit? Hebrews 12, speaking of chastening applies only to this earth. When I go to the Lord, I am in His presence. When I became His child He promised never to leave me; He also promised to chastise me. The chasizement is never carried over to Heaven. That is a heresy.

Ps 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell,[ouch] behold, thou art there.

A figurative passage that David uses to describe the omnipresence of the Lord that you have taken out of context. Nice try.

Re 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Re 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell F32 delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I don't see any verse in the Bible that says we ever "go to Heaven". Paul never mentions us "being in heaven". I'm not saying we don't go there, but this much I know: We don't do anything in heaven during the 1000 year reign of Christ. We'll either be here reigning with him or we're not.

Read Revelation 19. We are in Heaven, and will come with Christ at the end of the seven year Tribulation to reign with Christ. Read 1Thes. 4:17-20. The rapture will take place, which is the first resurrection. We will spend 1000 years in Heaven with our glorified bodies.
Rev. 20:5 The dead (spiritually dead—unsaved) lived not again til the thousand years were finished. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the damned, the unsaved will take place after the Millennium.
Rev.20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. That took place 1000 years earlier at the rapture, as the Scripture verifies here. They shall come with Christ (as it describes in Rev.19) with Christ to rule on earth for 1000 years.

Revelation 20:12-15 Refers only to the unsaved. The dead in Christ, the unsaved, the damned, the condemned—those who have rejected Christ will be thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity. This has nothing to do with believers whatsoever.
Nothing you have quoted has anything to do with any such "purgatory" at all. You espouse a heresy.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by av1611jim:

Secondly; you are again in error. The quote is NOT from Tyndale's Bible. It is from his MOUTH.

That is correct. That is what he said.

My statement had NOTHING to do with a Bible version. In context it was about the arrogance of SOME who think they are superior to others based solely on where they got their education. And YOU KNOW IT.

That is not what I was referring to.

Thirdly, who says quoting a preacher and then using a different Bible than he is inconsistent? That is ridiculous! If that premise were true then you could NEVER quote Paul!!!! Or Ireneaus or Polycarp!

That is right. That is the inconsitency of a KJVO.

And no, again you are wrong. By the time Tyndale died, every plowman in England did NOT have the scriptures. That day was a long way off.
C'mon DHK, at least be historically accurate, if not reasonably accurate.
In His service;
Jim

To William Tyndale (born 1494 in Goloucestershire), goes the honor of producing the first printed Scriptures in English, a complete New Testament. Tyndale came to Cambridge after Erasmus left. To one of the religious leaders he met there, Tyndale proclaimed the ambition that drove him: "If God spare my lyfe, ere many yeares I wyl cause a boye that dryveth the plough shall know more of the scripture than thou doest."
In 1525 he at last started printing his completed translation of the New Testament in the quarto edition. Many editions were purchased by the peopele but condemned by the Church authorities. Many copies were actually bought to be burned--that today only a fragment of one quarto copy survives in the British museum.
In 1535 Tyndale was kinapped and taken beyond the safety of Antwerp to be arrested and imprisoned in the Vilvords fortress. On Oct. 6, 1536 he was strangled and burned at the stake. His dying words were: "Lord open the King of England's eyes."
He could not know (so strict was the suveillance over him in prison) that a year earlier in October, 1535, a whole Bible--largely Tyndale's translation insofar as he had completed it, the Bible of Myles Coverdale--was already circulating in England with the approval of King Henry VIII. The martyr's prayer had been heard!

From the History of the Bible--Dixon's Analytical Bible.

Tyndale made the challenge. Tyndale completed the work. Tyndale's Bible was circulated among the English speaking Bible. If you issue a challenge concerning a specific version of the Bible, then you ought to stick to that version. Tyndale's quote that you used was in direct reference to the version that he was about to make. But you would never touch that version.
DHK

 

[Craigbythesea]

Jim wrote:

In your blanket dismissal of the truth of accountability you are, by implication, saying that we are not accountable to God for our behavior after we are saved. That, my dear brother in Christ, is heresy. Evan Paul testifies against this when he says, "shall we sin all the more that grace may abound? God forbid!" (loosely quoted) Indeed, the WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE proclaims that God demands obedience of His children. Not to MAKE them His children, but BECAUSE they ARE His. Else how will the world know we are His unless we BEHAVE like it?

Lacy wrote,

It is ironic that someone with a view on salvation which is practically identical with RC theology (Conditional security) would accuse someone (who teaches the Baptist doctrine of Eternal security) of teaching Catholicism.

I don't believe that Christians are accountable for their sins so if they sin they loose their salvation.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Craig;
Forgive me please, it was not you who accused my of being hypocritical.

Your sin has been remitted.

John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Keep reading


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Cor5:9
Wherefore we labour, F11 that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I kept reading, and reading, and reading, but nowhere did I find any mention of purgatory during the millennium.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by DHK: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />2 Cor5:9
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The judgement seat of Christ is that which is described in 1Cor.3:11-15. It has nothing to do with any kind of "purgatory." </font>[/QUOTE]I agree. Nothing at all to do with Purgatory.

It is a judgement of the "works" of the believers. If the works stand they shall gain reward. If the works do not stand the purifyin process they shall suffer a loss of reward. There is nothing of any punishment indicated those verses. We shall all give account, yes. But in 1Cor.3:11-15, the account is of the works that we do and do not do. It has nothing to do with punishment.

What "reward" will we recieve for the "bad" things we have done in the body? Read it. That is what it says. How can you be rewarded for bad things and it not be considered punishment? The slap on the wrist, take away a cookie doctrine is not in this verse.

You take Scripture out of context.

Do I?

My sin has already been paid for at the cross of calvary. I don't have to pay for them agan. You imply that the sufficiency of the blood of Christ was not enough to pay for the penalty of our sins.

I agree sin has been 100% paid for. That is not the issue at the JSOC. Only saved folks are there in the first place. Your eternal standing in Christ has already been settled before this judgment begins.

Accepted in the Scripture. What does it mean? "Well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of thy Lord." The acceptance is one of degree, one of reward. It has nothing to do with salvation.

AMEN! That is what i keep saying.

The entire sense of the verse is this:
Whether we labor: (that is labor on this earth with our eyes toward the coming of Christ with our reward in view), or whether we be absent (from this body) we will be accepted by the Lord.

AMEN! That is what i keep saying.

One never labours to be saved. This is the heresy that you are expousing.

How can I be "espousing that heresy" when I keep saying the exact opposite? Have you read my posts?

"For by grace are ye saved through faith. It is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast." Either you believe it or not. Apparently you don't. Salvation is not of works. This is plain and simple. We labour. We will be rewarded for our labour at the judgement seat of Christ.

Apparantly? Apparant means obvious, visible, or easily seen. If you would read, you would see that I said the exact same thing you did. "We will be rewarded for our labour at the judgement seat of Christ."

Do you not believe you have the indwelling of His Spirit? Hebrews 12, speaking of chastening applies only to this earth.

There is not one verse to support this statement.

When I go to the Lord, I am in His presence. When I became His child He promised never to leave me; He also promised to chastise me. The chasizement is never carried over to Heaven. That is a heresy.

Perhaps you are correct. I have been wrong many times. But verses to prove it so would be better than just words and opinions.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Ps 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell,[ouch] behold, thou art there.

A figurative passage that David uses to describe the omnipresence of the Lord that you have taken out of context. Nice try. </font>[/QUOTE]A verse that proves the omnipresence of God AND the presence of God in Hell. If hell is used as chastisement, God is there. Absent from the body, present with the Lord has no relevance.

We will spend 1000 years in Heaven with our glorified bodies.

Without scripture, that is just a tradition. The verse says we reign with him on earth!

Lacy

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
We will spend 1000 years in Heaven with our glorified bodies.

Without scripture, that is just a tradition. The verse says we reign with him on earth!

Lacy </font>[/QUOTE]That was an error. We will spend 1000 years on earth reigning with Him in our glorified bodies. I did not mean to put Heaven there. We will spend 7 years in Heaven with our glorified bodies, for we will be raptured before the Tribulation, and then come back with Christ to reign with Him for a thousand years.
DHK

 

[Lacy Evans]

Craig said:
I don't believe that Christians are accountable for their sins so if they sin they loose their salvation.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Jim said:
Craig;
Forgive me please, it was not you who accused my of being hypocritical.

Your sin has been remitted.</font>[/QUOTE]Does he get his salvation back?

Lacy

 

[Craigbythesea]

Without scripture, that is just a tradition.

Without Scripture, Kingdom Exclusion Theology is heresy. There is not even one verse in the entire Bible in which either chastisement or punishment of the Christian is mentioned in reference to any millennial period.

You can call me an “ingrate” and criticize my beliefs all that you want to, but you can not post even one verse from the Bible that specifically supports the heresy for which you are arguing in a Baptist forum to the peril of young and weak believers. Don’t change the subject. Simply admit that you have no scriptural support for the heresy that you are espousing.

Enough of the lie, here is the truth:

1. Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3. and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
7. Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8. and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10. And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:1-10, NKJV)