Will a Christian ever go to hell?

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by DHK:
That was an error. We will spend 1000 years on earth reigning with Him in our glorified bodies. I did not mean to put Heaven there. We will spend 7 years in Heaven with our glorified bodies, for we will be raptured before the Tribulation, and then come back with Christ to reign with Him for a thousand years.
DHK

I pretty much agree. (At least 7 years, possibly longer, and that's IF we make the rapture. But that is another thread for sure.)

But what happens after the 1000 years? Does the Bible ever say we all go up to heaven? It really doesn't say anything one way or another. There is a new Heaven and Earth. This one is no more. But where does it say we go to heaven? (I suppose that is not really a relevant question to this thread other than the fact that true Biblical teaching is much more complex than the traditional "Heaven or Hell")

Lacy

 

[James_Newman]

So you planning to be beheaded? I'm going to watch and pray always that I may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass. But the rest of the dead will live not until the 1000 yrs are expired.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Craig,

I have never criticised your beliefs Craig. I just disagree with you.

I called you an ingrate because you hurt my feelings when you made the comment about my gift to you of the books. I'm sorry I reacted in anger. Please forgive me, brother.

Galations 5:13-21; 1 Corinthians 6:1-10; and Ephesians 5:5-7; all specifically and very plainly teach Millennial Exclusion.

The only way to get out of it is to change the phrase, "Shall not inherit the kingdom" to "Shall lose his salvation". Esau, Reuben, and several others lost their inheritance but not their "sonship". There is no OT type for losing salvation. The Jews never lost "salvation", never lost familial ties. Instead they lost their right to enter into Caanan, lost their 1st-born privileges, lost their inheritance, and were severly chastened. Some even lost their very lives.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Lacy

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Lacy,

You say,

Galatinas 5:13-21; 1 Corinthians 6:1-10; and Ephesians 5:5-7; all specifically and very plainly teach Millennial Exclusion

The problem is, there is none of in these passages mentioned, 'a thousand years'. I did read these many times, I have no problem with them, I understand and accept what these are talking about.

First, I would like to discuss on Gal. 5:13-21. Paul says, "This I say then WALK in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." - vs. 16. Paul commanded us, we ought to walk in the Spirit, not fulfill with lust, that mean, we ought to walk holy and follow Christ, not fulfill with flesh of sins.

Paul warns, "Now the works of the FLESH are manifest, which are these; ADULTERY, FORNICATION, UNCLEANNESS, LASICIOUSNESS, IDOLATRY, WITHCRAFT, HATRED, VARIANCE, EMULATIONS, WRATH, STRIFE, SEDITIONS, HERESIES, ENVYINGS, MURDERS, DRUNKENNESS, REVELLINGS, AND SUCH LIKE of the which I tell you before, as I have also TOLD YOU in time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God."

Notice verse 19-21 - Paul named of sins, he said, if they do these things, will not have eternal life, why? Because of not repent of sins, and remain in sinning.

Often, Bible emphasis us, it mentioned on repent, and talk lot about against sins. Bible commanded us to repent of sins, because God is holy. Hell is for Satan and the fallen angels, but also, any person go to hell for without repent, disobey, reject Christ.

"The kingdom of God" have do nothing with 'a thousand years'. It speaks of eternality kingdom -Dan. 7:14, 18, and 27.

Same with John 3:3 & 7 tell us, we MUST be born again to enter eternality kingdom, OR... if we don't born again, then cannot enter eternality kingdom. Christ means that we must repent of our sins, shall have eternal life, or if we remain in sins, we cannot have eternal life.

Second, discuss on 1 Cor. 6:1-10.

Notice verse 9 says, "Know ye not that the UNrighteous shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God?"

'Unrighteous' means a person who do not doing righteous life, remain in sins without repent, it obivously speak to unbelievers/sinners! Even apply to us, if we do not do righteous life also.

Paul warns us, a person who do not doing righteous life, shall NOT enter eternality kingdom, that mean, a person will go to eternality punishment - lake of fire.

Paul does not discuss on "millennial kingdom" anywhere in the context of 1 Cor. 6:1-10. He discuss about preaching against sins, warn us, that we ought to be repent of sins, or cannot have eternal life.

Third, discuss on Ephesisans 5:5-7. This passage does not discuss about "millennial kingdom". This passage discuss about warn about any person who doing wicked things, without have repent, CANNOT enter eternality kingdom - eternal life. A person who do wicked things without repent, will go into everlasting punishment - lake of fire. That's simple and plain.

You cannot do guesswork on these passages, because of these do not mentioned, 'a thousand years'. You know that.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

craigbythesea,

On other many things, I do agree with you, that you saying there is none of these passages talk about millennial exclusion.

But I do disagree with you, that you saying a Christian who sinning, cannot lose salvation.

There are so many overwhelm verses in the Bible teaching us of conditional salvation. Yes, these warning us, that we are commanded to repent of sins all the times, follow CHrist all the time, do these things what Christ commands us. We ought to obey Him.

Tomorrow, I will discuss with you on verses which teach us of conditional salvation.

For a long time, I used to believe in 'onced saved always saved' or 'security salvation'. Now, I am no longer used to believe in it. I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying according Colossians 2:8. Tomorrow, I will show you verses about conditional salvation.

I am aware of this issue on salvation is very hotly than any issues among baptists. I am also baptists. I do believe Christ died on the cross for us. I do have faith on Jesus Christ, what he does for us.

But the most important thing that Christ emphasis us is FOLLOW HIM - John 10:27.

Do many Christians actual follow Christ today? I fear, most of them do not follow him. Many of them will be end up in hell. Later I will discuss on verses to prove these are conditional salvation.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:

Paul warns, "Now the works of the FLESH are manifest, which are these; ADULTERY, FORNICATION, UNCLEANNESS, LASICIOUSNESS, IDOLATRY, WITHCRAFT, HATRED, VARIANCE, EMULATIONS, WRATH, STRIFE, SEDITIONS, HERESIES, ENVYINGS, MURDERS, DRUNKENNESS, REVELLINGS, AND SUCH LIKE of the which I tell you before, as I have also TOLD YOU in time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God."

Notice verse 19-21 - Paul named of sins, he said, if they do these things, will not have eternal life,why? Because of not repent of sins, and remain in sinning.

You see that! You changed it. It says nothing about "Eternal Life". It says "Shall not inherit the Kingdom."

Often, Bible emphasis us, it mentioned on repent, and talk lot about against sins. Bible commanded us to repent of sins, because God is holy. Hell is for Satan and the fallen angels, but also, any person go to hell for without repent, disobey, reject Christ.

Amen

"The kingdom of God" have do nothing with 'a thousand years'. It speaks of eternality kingdom -Dan. 7:14, 18, and 27.

Are you completely closed to the idea that the phrase Kingdom of God/Heaven might have more than one application? Clearly the Bible teaches that Christ will literally reign for 1000 years on earth. (Wouldn't that be Christ's kingdom?)When the disciples asked him about it, he never corrected them. They (As all Jews did and still do) fully expected Messiah to reign literally on Earth from David's throne. All the other kingdoms in Dan. 2 and Dan 7 were both literal earthly kingdoms and spiritual (invisible) Kingdoms (See Daniel 10:20) So why couldn't the phrase Kingdom of God apply to both a literal Kingdom set up at the judgment seat as prophesied in Revelation and a spiritual kingdom set up at the ressurrection of Christ as prophesied in Daniel.

Same with John 3:3 & 7 tell us, we MUST be born again to enter eternality kingdom, OR... if we don't born again, then cannot enter eternality kingdom. Christ means that we must repent of our sins, shall have eternal life, or if we remain in sins, we cannot have eternal life.

You changed it again.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

He cannot SEE the kingdom if he is not born again (saved). Like Moses who got to see the kingdom (Caanan) but didn't get to enter because of sin.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

We must be born of Spirit (Saved) and of Water (Obedience/Faithfulness/Works/Jordan - 1st act of obedience? Baptism) to ENTER the Kingdom like Josua and Caleb.

(Continued)

Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

DPT continues:
Second, discuss on 1 Cor. 6:1-10.

Notice verse 9 says, "Know ye not that the UNrighteous shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God?"

'Unrighteous' means a person who do not doing righteous life, remain in sins without repent, it obivously speak to unbelievers/sinners! Even apply to us, if we do not do righteous life also.

So far so good.

Paul warns us, a person who do not doing righteous life, shall NOT enter eternality kingdom, that mean, a person will go to eternality punishment - lake of fire.

Paul does not discuss on "millennial kingdom" anywhere in the context of 1 Cor. 6:1-10. He discuss about preaching against sins, warn us, that we ought to be repent of sins, or cannot have eternal life. .

Actually Paul never mentions the Lake of Fire anywhere in 1 Cor. 6. he simply says "Kingdom". we disagree as to the interpretation. As to what is not there (Millenial Kingdom or Lake of fire) it is a wash.

Third, discuss on Ephesisans 5:5-7. This passage does not discuss about "millennial kingdom". This passage discuss about warn about any person who doing wicked things, without have repent, CANNOT enter eternality kingdom - eternal life. A person who do wicked things without repent, will go into everlasting punishment - lake of fire. That's simple and plain.

You cannot do guesswork on these passages, because of these do not mentioned, 'a thousand years'. You know that.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

It is not simple and plain either way DPT! we both have to compare scripture with scripture.

You cannot do guesswork on these passages, because of these do not mentioned, "Lake of Fire" or "Eternity". You know that.

Lacy

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Lacy,

No, I don't change it. I understand what these passages are talking about.

I know that, Paul probably never heard word, 'lake of fire' during in his time, because it was not appear till about 40 years later - John penned it down in Book of Revelation.

Although, Paul understoods, hell is very obivously speak of eternal punishment and fire, because of, no doubt that I am sure Paul already learned of everlasting fire come from Jesus Christ.

There is no difference between hell & lake fire. Hell WILL BE CAST into the lake of fire. Hell is lake of fire- period.

I think, probably, many baptists seem not understand what the defintion of 'kingdom of God/heaven' means.

Premill teaches, 'kingdom of God' means 1000 years kingdom. But, there is none verse find anywhere in the Bible saying kingdom of God/heaven means 1,000 years kingdom.

I better to start a new topic on the defintion of 'kingdom of God/heaven' later this weekend.

By the way, do you actual understand of "he cannot see 'the kingdom of God' "? of John 3:3,7 - what is talking about?

Second, do you actual understand what word, 'must be born again' talking about?

No excuse for any Christian who read Gal. 5:19-21 & 1 Cor. 6:9-10, what these are talking about. The fact is most Christians and pastors understand of these speak of any person who sinned, cannot enter eternal life.

Joey Faust is the only person who interpreting 'kingdom of God' of Gal. 5:21; & 1 Cor. 6:10 means millennial kingdom. Many baptists, and probably inluce bapstist pastors follow Faust's teaching.

I do not agree with Faust's interpreting, because neither 'kingdom of God' saying it is a thousand kingdom.

Do you think, God's domonion or reigning is a limited?

Does the Bible saying the kingdom of God will be finally over?

I will discuss more about the kingdom of God in a new topic later this weekend.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[av1611jim]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Craig said:
I don't believe that Christians are accountable for their sins so if they sin they loose their salvation.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Jim said:
Craig;
Forgive me please, it was not you who accused my of being hypocritical.

Your sin has been remitted.</font>[/QUOTE]Does he get his salvation back?
To Craig;
You never answered this.
Am I saved again because you said so?

Jim

Lacy </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:

But what happens after the 1000 years? Does the Bible ever say we all go up to heaven? It really doesn't say anything one way or another. There is a new Heaven and Earth. This one is no more. But where does it say we go to heaven? (I suppose that is not really a relevant question to this thread other than the fact that true Biblical teaching is much more complex than the traditional "Heaven or Hell")

Lacy

Yes it does say something. It says lots, from Revelation 20 onward. Ater the 1000 years are over then the second resurrection will take place. Blessed and holy are those that do not take part in that resurrection. This is the resurrection of the unjust, the condemned. Verses 11-15 describes them standing before the Great White Throne Judgement awaiting their final sentencing--all to be thrown into the lake of fire. This will include all the inhabitants of those that were in Hell already, all those that were physically alive but unbelievers at that time (dead or spiritually dead). And of course all of these do not have their names written in the Lamb's book of Life. That's a given and is added for emphasis. There will be no believers present at this judgement. It is for the unsaved only--for those who have rejected Christ as Saviour.

There will be a new Heaven and a new earth. John sees the New Jerusalem descending from Heaven unto the earth. The New Jerusalem is the bride. Heaven is described in further Scripture.

After the Judgement Seat of Christ, which takes place before the Millenial Kingdom ever starts, there is no other punishment for believers. And even that was not a punishment for believers. It was a place where rewards were given out and rewards were lost. The only punishment that believers face is on earth according to Hebrews 12. There is no Biblical evidence to the contrary. God has not appointed us to wrath.
DHK

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by DHK:
Yes it does say something. It says lots, from Revelation 20 onward. Ater the 1000 years are over then the second resurrection will take place.

No verse anywhere in Revelation gives us even a hint that after the GWT judgment that we all leave the Earth to spend eternity up in Heaven. It is a tradition.

Blessed and holy are those that do not take part in that resurrection. This is the resurrection of the unjust, the condemned. Verses 11-15 describes them standing before the Great White Throne Judgement awaiting their final sentencing--all to be thrown into the lake of fire.

It doesn't say all and if you read it honestly without pre-concieved notions, it implies that perhaps only part go to the LOF.

. . .And of course all of these do not have their names written in the Lamb's book of Life. That's a given and is added for emphasis.

Emphasis? What does it emphasize? Where do you get that idea from the context?

There will be no believers present at this judgement. It is for the unsaved only--for those who have rejected Christ as Saviour.

I used to believe that too. It doesn't say that. We assume it.

Heaven is described in further Scripture.

Which?

After the Judgement Seat of Christ, which takes place before the Millenial Kingdom ever starts, there is no other punishment for believers. And even that was not a punishment for believers. It was a place where rewards were given out and rewards were lost.

I have asked several times with no answer. What "rewards" do we get for the "bad deeds done in the body"? (2 Cor 5:10)

The only punishment that believers face is on earth according to Hebrews 12. There is no Biblical evidence to the contrary. God has not appointed us to wrath.

I am not saying anything about wrath there is a distinction between chastening and wrath.

Ps 38:1 O LORD, rebuke me not in thy wrath: neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure.

We are appointed to chastening (Heb 12:7) if we need it.

Warnings in Hebrews 12

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

What chastening in this life would be so bad that we find "no place for repentance"? God is faithful and just to forgive.

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Escape when? See v 22!


Lacy

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
No verse anywhere in Revelation gives us even a hint that after the GWT judgment that we all leave the Earth to spend eternity up in Heaven. It is a tradition.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
--no traditon here; just Scripture.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
--Heaven is not mentioned??

It doesn't say all and if you read it honestly without pre-concieved notions, it implies that perhaps only part go to the LOF.

--Revelation 20:11 "there was found no place for them." (All of them)
--"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God" (All of them)
-- and
--"the dead were judged out of those things which
were written in the books" (all of the dead)

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead (all of them) which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: (all of them) and they (All) were judged every man according to their works.
God

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.(And all that were in them) This is the second death.

Emphasis? What does it emphasize? Where do you get that idea from the context?

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
--The sentencing had already been declared. They were ALL to be thrown into the Lake of Fire. It is obvious to the reader that none of the above had their names written in the Book of Life. Only believers do. And there are no believers present there. It was an obvious statement of emphasis to make clear to the believer that every believer has his name written in the Book of Life. Every unbeliever does not.

There will be no believers present at this judgement. It is for the unsaved only--for those who have rejected Christ as Saviour.

I used to believe that too. It doesn't say that. We assume it.

It is more than just assumed. It is a Biblical teaching. There are two resurrections; two judgements. It is clearly stated at the beginning of Rev.20
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first
resurrection: on such the second death hath no
power.
--They will not be there. The second death has not any power over them. It is the resurrection for the unjust as described in John 5.

Heaven is described in further Scripture.

Which?

Have you not read Revelation 21 and 22? Have you not read John 14?
John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you.
3 I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
--Jesus describes Heaven for us.

I have asked several times with no answer. What "rewards" do we get for the "bad deeds done in the body"? (2 Cor 5:10)

1Cor.3:11-15 is not speaking about bad deeds done in the body. Those sins are put under the blood. They are not dealt with in eternity, only here on earth. You are trying to impose a doctrine of purgatory into the Scriptures where there is none. It is unscriptural. God's chastening for sin is found on earth, not in Heaven.

I am not saying anything about wrath there is a distinction between chastening and wrath.

But you are not making one.

Ps 38:1 O LORD, rebuke me not in thy wrath: neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure.

We are appointed to chastening (Heb 12:7) if we need it.

Do you always get your theology from the poetical books that uses highly figurative language. This is not a good idea. That's how many of the cults spawn their false ideas. It is a prayer of David, showing his sinfulness before God, his unworthiness before Him when He has sinned. You can't build your theology on such prayerful language.

Warnings in Hebrews 12

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

What chastening in this life would be so bad that we find "no place for repentance"? God is faithful and just to forgive.

God makes it clear here that without holiness no man can see God. Are you as holy as God? The answer is no. No man is. The only way that man can be made holy is to be given a holy standing is to be born again, and be made a child of God. Righteousness is then imputed unto him, wherein he can safely stand before God a holy creature protected by the blood of Christ.

Then the author goes on to use the OT example of Esau, which the OT itself makes clear was never a saved individual in the first place. He was profane, a fornicator, etc. because he never was saved in the first place. That is why God gave the blessing to Jacob. He found no place of repentance. Esau did not truly repent. He was only sorry for himself that he had not acquired the blessing and inheritance for himself. He wanted power not God's blessing. He was profane, not Godly. He wasn't saved.

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Escape when? See v 22!
Lacy

Escape the judgement of God, if you are not truly saved. Even an Israelite was not saved just for the fact that he was an Israelite. He had to make his own choice whether or not to believe on Jehovah.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Hebrews 12:22-24 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

This is Heaven! Glory Be!
DHK

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> You still havent answered my post about the lake of fire though.

James,

I am not an authority on first-century oriental apocalyptic literature (this is the class of literature that The Revelation belongs to), but I know one who is. I shall consult with him and get back to you. </font>[/QUOTE]We still waiting on this guy to come back from the moon?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Patience is a virtue.

 

[DeaconLew]

If the gift of God is salvation by grace through faith, then what is the "kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven?" It suggests that attaining it, KOG/KOH, is gained by not fornicating, not stealing, not being a homosexual etc. If we are saying that the KOG/KOH is eternal life, the we are all saved by works, and none of us will make it. For if we could, by our own merit, "earn" eternal life there would have been no need for the Lord to die for our sins. Nor could we ever earn it, because our righteousnesses are but filth rags, there is none that doeth good, we are ALL gone out of the way. We are of men most miserable.

-DeaconLew

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Good Afternoon!

I have a good verse for you. "FIGHT the good fight of faith, lay HOLD ON ETERNAL LIFE, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses." - 1 Timothy 6:12

Apostle Paul tells us, we ought to fight with our faith toward Jesus Christ and hold on eternal life. OR, if a person give up and turn away from the Lord, shall not hold eternal life.

Christ have called us out of the darkness - 1 Peter 2:9, into the light, that means we ought follow Christ, so, we ought to fight with our faith and hold on eternal life. If a person stopped follow Christ, and turn away, will not hold eternal life, that means a person is heading on the way to destruction is everlasting fire.

1 Tim. 6:12 reminds me of 2 Tim. 4:7. I hear 2 Tim. 4:7 many times. Often, ifb pastors use this verse. But, I think it is rare for any ifb pastors to preaching on 1 Tim. 6:12, because of this verse 12 speaks clear against security salvation.

Also, 1 Tim. 6:12 reminds me of Jude 3 says, "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was ONCE DELIVERED unto the saints."

Jude 3 tells the same thing as what Apostle Paul said. Jude 3 tells us, we should fight for our faith, which onced we were called by Christ.

Also, 2 Peter 1:10 says, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election SURE: for IF ye DO these things, ye shall shall never fall:"

Obivously, these are conditional salvation.

Apostle Peter tells us, he urges us, once we received the calling and election, we ought to DO these things, so, we shall not fall away. OR... if a person knew that person was called, but, not do these things, will fall away, and will not hold eternal life - 1 Tim. 6:12.

The facts, there are so many were called, but few are chosen - Matt. 20:16, because most of them easy give up, and turn away, will not hold eternal life.

Paul & Jude both tell us, that we ought to fight with our faith to hold eternal life. same as what Christ said in Luke 13:24 -"STRIVE to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall NOT be able." Same with Matt. 7:13-14. Most of people will not make it to enter the narrow road toward eternal life, will be end up into destruction - everlasting fire. Because, most people easy to give up, and stopped follow Christ, turn away, and heading toward destruction - everlasting fire.

A young rich man came to Jesus, and asked him, what he shall have eternal life - Matthew 19:16-27. A young rich man asked Christ, "Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I MAY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE?" - vs. 16. A young rich man does not ask Christ about millennial kingdom, he asked Christ about want to know what shall to do to have eternal life.

Christ said to him, "but IF thou wilt ENTER INTO LIFE, KEEP the commandments."-vs. 17 Christ told him, if he desires to enter have eternal life, he ought to keep the commandments.

A young rich man asked Christ, which one of the commandments? Christ told him, do not kill, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, obey your parents, love your neighbors. - vs. 18-19.

Then, man asked Christ, what one thing, he miss or lack for demand to do all things. - vs. 20. Christ said to him, "IF thou wilt be perfect, GO and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and COME and FOLLOW me." - 20-21.

Christ told him, if he desires to be matured or being completed, enter eternal life, have to give up things what he have, and come to follow Christ.

What happened to rich man? When he heard Christ's word, he was uspet and sorrowful, turn away from Christ, refused to give up his things. - vs. 22.

Christ told to the disciples, that rich man have hard time to enter the kingdom of heaven, but, easier for a camel to enter into the eye of needle than a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Christ does not take camel into literally. His point on the comparing of camel and rich man. He used camel for an illustration to show of its' character. Camel is a big and tall animal in the Middle East. Camel never complain, when carry heavy load on its' back, and walking across desert for a long journey. Also, camel never complain for being thirsty while walk across desert all day. Camel's attitude shows that its' have patience and humble. A rich man have his own pride, and selfish, not willing to face tough life, want to keep his own things. Hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

We all should be same camel's example, that we should be patience, humble, sacrifice our life.

We ought to follow Christ, then shall have eternal life.

There are facts of present day, many people who were called by God, did follow Christ for a while, but easy to give up, and stopped follow Christ, will not enter eternal life, means, on the way to destruction - everlasting fire - Matt. 7:13-14 & Luke 13:24.

Sorry to saying that. These are not mine words. Listen what Christ saying. I aware of many people dislike hear the truth offend their feelings. Christ have a good reason to saying on them, because Christ have a big concerning on people's soul, He does not want them go to everlasting fire, but want all come to repentance - 2 Peter 3:9.

If any person stopped follow Christ, He might looses a person out of his hand - John 10:27-28.

There are very overwhelm evidences in the Bible teaching us of conditional salvation with word, "IF"'s.

'Christian' is a truly define word means, a person who determine to FOLLOW Christ is a true Christian. No, a true Christian will NOT go to hell, unless if a Christian FOLLOW Christ all the way to the end then shall be saved - Matt. 24:13.

Christian is same as disciple. Disciple means, a person who follow Christ - Luke 14:27 says, "And whosever DOTH not bear his cross, and come after me, CANNOT be my disciple." Christ warns us, if any person refuses take the cross and follow him (Luke 9:23), then a person CANNOT be his disciple.

Clearly, disciple means same as Christian.

Will a disciple go to hell? Yes.

Remember Judas the Iscariot. He deny Christ, and turn away from Christ, he commited suicide by hanged himself on the tree, obivously, he is in hell right now. Judas WAS a disciple of Christ at thye first place, but he turn away from Christ at the end of his life. He was end up in hell.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Craigbythesea]

If the gift of God is salvation by grace through faith, then what is the "kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven?" It suggests that attaining it, KOG/KOH, is gained by not fornicating, not stealing, not being a homosexual etc. If we are saying that the KOG/KOH is eternal life, the we are all saved by works, and none of us will make it. For if we could, by our own merit, "earn" eternal life there would have been no need for the Lord to die for our sins. Nor could we ever earn it, because our righteousnesses are but filth rags, there is none that doeth good, we are ALL gone out of the way. We are of men most miserable.

This entire post if one jumbled mess! But rather than teach you the Bible from scratch, I am recommending that you read through three systematic theologies, one from a Calvinistic point of view, one from an Arminian point of view, and one from a point of view between the two. Doing so will give you at least a very basic idea of the issues involved and how they relate to each other. If you need specific recommendations, I will supply them

It might be a good idea to also carefully and prayerfully read through the Bible several times.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Lew has read his Bible plenty Craig. He's just getting warmed up. He's new here. He knows what Calvinists and Armenians believe, I assure you. But he's like me, a simple man, cumbered about with layer after layer horse sense rather than layer after layer of Rhetoric and tradition. Give him a chance and when you read his posts and my posts, think SIMPLE!

lacy

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> If the gift of God is salvation by grace through faith, then what is the "kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven?" It suggests that attaining it, KOG/KOH, is gained by not fornicating, not stealing, not being a homosexual etc. If we are saying that the KOG/KOH is eternal life, the we are all saved by works, and none of us will make it. For if we could, by our own merit, "earn" eternal life there would have been no need for the Lord to die for our sins. Nor could we ever earn it, because our righteousnesses are but filth rags, there is none that doeth good, we are ALL gone out of the way. We are of men most miserable.

This entire post if one jumbled mess! But rather than teach you the Bible from scratch, I am recommending that you read through three systematic theologies, one from a Calvinistic point of view, one from an Arminian point of view, and one from a point of view between the two. Doing so will give you at least a very basic idea of the issues involved and how they relate to each other. If you need specific recommendations, I will supply them

It might be a good idea to also carefully and prayerfully read through the Bible several times.

</font>[/QUOTE]What is between Calvinism and Arminianism?