Will a Christian ever go to hell?

[James_Newman]

I don't think you truly understand what my church believes, Dr Bob. I don't think you truly understand a lot of things. If Jack Van Impe told you that the Roman Catholic Church was the whore in Revelation, would you believe him? He used to preach that, but now he says the pope is a great guy and that the Roman Catholics are our good baby-sprinkling, god-eating, works-salvation brethren. Do you believe this? I would be more than happy to send you a copy of JD Faust's book if you would like to read it. If you would rather just answer a matter before you hear it, carry on.

 

[David M Walker]

I would like to say that I am a sinner saved by grace through faith that is searching for THE TRUTH FROM GOD; AND TRYING ONLY TO DO SO FROM HIS WORD (not my own understanding or what "sounds" the best).

With that said, I’m not sure what to think of my friends response below regarding "millennial exclusion"... thought I would share w/ the group so y'all could let me know what your opinion was....

Friends email below:
--------------------------
Anyone who actually promotes the "catholic" concept of hell doesn't really understand yet what Scripture is teaching us here.

We may have covered this before, but it's always a good topic. If "hell" exists, as the "catholics" (and all the protestants who buy into the "catholic" teaching) teach it, then Messiah is a liar and a fraud.

If "hell" exists, then there IS something other than "death" that is the wages of sin. If "hell" exists, then there must be some sin for which "hell" is the proper punishment. So, where Scripture teaches us that the wages of sin is death, the "catholic" teaching is that the wages of sin is "hell." Therefore, the Pope is "right" and Messiah is wrong. (This is an attitude that derives directly from the Talmud, where the Rabbi is "right," Messiah doesn't yet exist, and God is wrong.) Not that there isn't translated language to support the notion, for there may be several places where the original language is (improperly) translated into "eternal torment." And, where the translation is properly "judgment," the "teaching" to accompany that language steers the mind toward "torment," and away from "judgment." But, to refocus on the "wages of sin" matter, it's either death or it isn't. If it is, then there's no such thing as the "hell" that the "catholics" teach. If it isn't, i.e., if the wages of sin is something other than death, such as the "hell" as taught by the "catholics," then Messiah is a liar, and Scripture is a fraud.

If there IS such thing as the "catholic" "hell," then Messiah could not possibly have yet risen from the Grave AND saved "the world." If the wages for sin is death, then it's possible to die, and be in the grave for three days, AND Resurrect AND save "the world." However, if the wages for even one sin by even one person throughout all human history is the "catholic" "hell," then Messiah is still paying for that sin (which will take an eternity of torment to pay for, by the way), for else He's a liar when He says He intends to save "the world."

He's either the Ruler of All, or the Ruler of none. If He's the Ruler of All, then ALL are saved, meaning that "the world" (throughout all time) is saved. But, He can't accomplish that purpose AND Resurrect in 3 days, if there's even one sin for which the payment is an eternity of torment.

He Resurrected in 3 days. So, did He save "the world," by paying for the entirety of the sins of all time by dying, or is He a liar?

Since He paid for the entirety of all sins of all time by dying, not by suffering an eternity of torment, but by dying, then not only has He saved "the world," just as He said He would do, but also we know that the "catholic" concept of "hell" is pure, unmitigated mind- and attitude-control and is to be denounced at every opportunity (where there's even a remote possibility of teaching the reality of the lesson).

It's impossible to understand the Gospel AND teach about the "hell" that the "catholics" teach. And, to the extent that the KJV is the basis for teaching the "hell" that the "catholics" teach, the translation, or its understanding, is errant.

So, this statement that "unholy Christians" are going to "hell" for 1000 years is not anything I'd even characterize as competent, much less "truth." Those who are so ready to "judge" the other guy are actually promoting self-righteousness, which, again, is another idea that is the exact anti-thesis of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Following the Law in the Kingdom has little to nothing whatsoever to do with promoting self. Rather, it has everything to do with benefiting and blessing the other guy. Those who are in such a need to issue statements of judgment and condemnation are the very ones with the logs in their eyes, pointing out the splinters in the other guy's eye.

"Hell" is a perfectly good term, but it means "the grave." There's one spot, maybe two, and I attribute the one to Peter, where the term in the Greek is the same for that of Dante's "Inferno," namely "hades." I don't know yet what to do with that particular term. One line of thought stems from the understanding that the Scriptures, all of them, were in some language other than Greek in the original languages, and that in the translation into the Septuagint, the Hebrew or Aramaic term was (mis)translated into the Greek term that we find today. Another line of thought is that the term describes exactly what Peter had in mind to describe, and that he was still in the stage of just "not getting it" yet. However that term got there, I can't say. What I can say is that for the remainder of the lessons on the topic, but by language and context of ideas, there simply is no such reality as Dante's "Inferno." There is simply "the grave." One term in one place, maybe two, is what the entirety of the "catholic" doctrine is based upon, while the entirety of the rest of the discussion on the point in Scripture looks to the notion of "the grave."

Another problem with the "hell" concept popularly taught is that its conjoined with the idea that "heaven" is "out there in space" somewhere. And, this notion is just as ludicrous and anti-Scriptural! Why did God start Adam (and Eve) tilling the ground? Just something to do to bide their time?? Hardly! The point of tilling the ground is to make it suitable for His Eternal Presence right here on terra firma. Why does The Holy City "descend" (away) from "heaven" and approach earth? So that it may then blast off into oblivion somewhere? Hardly! The entire point of that imagery is to teach that God is setting up shop right here on terra firma. Of what possible value is it to be obedient, and thus meek, so as to inherit the earth? There'd be none, if "heaven" were "out there in space" somewhere. Thus, the entire value of inheriting the earth is to have literally inherited The Kingdom, for The Kingdom is to be found right here on terra firma. Of what possible relevance is there in His being King of Kings and Lord of Lords, if there are no Kings and no Lords over which to be King and Lord?? None. And, if all the Kings and Lords are buzzing around "out there in space" somewhere, they'll miss the entirety of the point, because God is going to be right here, on terra firma, running His Kingdom.

"Hell" and "Heaven" describe conditions of one place, not two separate places, each of which is separate from terra firma. "Hell" describes the condition of life on earth where the people are in complete rebellion, such as we presently see. In other words, we're dead and in the grave. And, "Heaven" describes the condition of life on earth where we're obedient, and thus in full fellowship with Him. "Hell" describes the condition of life under the Curses; "Heaven," the condition of life under the Blessings.

Those who would teach otherwise have not yet emerged from the "catholic" mindset.

And, all the while, they are making themselves repugnant before the Ever-living God by continuing to use dishonest weights and measures, which is a hideous act of rebellion they are not even aware they are committing (log in the eye; splinter in the eye). So, eventually, they'll be relieved to know that they are dead wrong about this "hell" stuff, for they would surely find themselves in it.

 

[Bro. James]

"The wages of sin is death..."

Death=separation

"you must be born again..."

We are going to die-- either going to God or going to the Devil.

The second death has no effect on the children of God. Only the children of the Devil will join him in eternal separation from God in a very unpleasant place--it is on fire and the souls are never consumed. One does not want to go there.

How people get a purgatory out of this I know not. Jesus paid it all. What have you done with Jesus?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I'm back.

For past several days after I made post with verses about salvation issue. I notice anyone of you seem hopping like as rabbit. You seems avoid to discuss on these verses as I show you few days ago. You just avoid and around these verses that I showed you, and you discuss other issue. I ask you please stay on the same track, and focus on these verses that I show you few days ago. I would like to hear your comment and do you agree with these verses that I showed you.

Let's back to the same track.

I showed you of 1 Timothy 6:12. It says, "FIGHT the good fight of faith, lay HOLD ON eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."

Apostle Paul tells us, we ought to fight with our faith for Jesus Christ, and we ought to lay HOLD on eternal life, when after we are called out(1 Peter 2:9). Or, other word, if we do not lay hold on eternal life, as we sinning without repent, will not enter eternal life.

I would like to hear your comment on 1 Tim. 6:12. Do you agree with 1 Tim. 6:12?

Also, Paul continued discuss in the context of 1 Timothy chapter 6. Notice verse 19-21 say: "Laying Up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay HOLD on eternal life. O Timothy, keep that which is commited to thy trust, AVOIDING profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen."

Paul tells us, we ought to lay HOLD on eternal life TILL the time to come. What does 'the time to come' speaks of? It speaks of judgement seat of Christ. We ought to lay hold on eternal life all the way through our life till the end-death, or Christ comes. Or, if we do not lay hold on eternal life, while we are sinning without repent, will not have eternal life, go to hell.

I would like to hear your comment on 1 Tim. 6:19-21, please. Do you agree with 1 Tim. 6:19-21?

Also, 1 Tim. 6:12 is refer to 2 Tim. 4:7, Paul tells us, that he already fought a good fight, he already make it to the end. That means, he already made it all the way till his death(by being excuted or beheaded). He never give up on fight for his faith.

Do you agree with 2 Tim. 4:7?

Also, 1 Tim. 6:12 is refer with Jude 3 says, "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

Jude 3 tells us, we should fight for the faith, when after we were called out(1 Peter 2:9).

Do you agree with Jude 3?

1 Tim. 6:12; and Jude 3 same with Luke 13:24.

Christ tells us, many are STRIVE to enter the gate, most of them will not make to enter. According to Matt. 7:13-14. Christ already know most will not enter the narrow road to eternal life, because most of them easy give up and quit serve the Lord, turn away return to world again.

Christ commands us to strive with our faith toward narrow road enter eternal life. Entering eternal life is not easy. Paul tells us, that we are the soldiers of Christ, that why we are in the war right now. Most of them easy give up in the middle of the war. Most being end up into destruction - everlasting punishment.

Do you agree with Matt. 7:13-14 & Luke 13:24, what Christ says?

Other passage of verses I showed you few days ago. I showed you of Matt. 19:16-26. A young rich man came to Jesus, and asked Him, what thing, that he should have eternal life. A rich man does not ask Christ about 'a thousand years of kingdom', because in his time, he never hear of "premillennial doctrine", it was not yet exist till early 19th Century.

Christ told him, to obey his commandments, then shall have eternal life. Rich man asked Christ, what thing he miss or lack? Christ told him, that he would have to give up the things what he have, and give them to the poor people, then COME and FOLLOW Christ - Matt.19:21.

When after a young rich man heard Christ's words, he was bitter and being selfish, refuse give up on his things, and turn away from Christ. A young rich man refused to follow Christ, he is already in the hell.

Do you agree with Matt. 19:16-26?

I showed you of Hebrews 3:14 says: "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we HOLD the beginning of our confidence STEADFAST UNTO THE END."

Apostle Paul(?) tells us, we are belong to Christ's IF we HOLD from the beginning to the END.

Do you agree with Hebrews 3:14?

Also, it refers with Matt. 10:22; & 24:13 tell us, that we must be ENDURE all the way till the end, then shall be saved. Or, other word, IF we do not endure all the way to the end, then shall not be saved, go to hell.

Bible commands us, that we should be faithful. endure, steadfast, fight all the way till the end. Sad, most of them who are not make it all the way to end, being end up in everlasting fire - Matt. 7:13-14; and Luke 13:24.

Do you agree with Hebrews 3:14?

Few days ago, I showed you of 2 Peter 1:10 says: "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to MAKE your calling and election SURE: for IF ye DO these things, ye shall never fall:"

Apostle Peter tells us, that we should be urge each other, to MAKE SURE that our calling and election, for IF we DO these things, we shall never be fall.

Most of them who were called, do not Do the things, many are fall away, lead into destruction.

Do you agree with 2 Peter 1:10?

I would to add few verses in the context of 2 Peter 1:10.

Read 2 Peter 1:5-10. Peter tells us, that we should bear our fruits, IF we do these things, and we are abide and have fruit in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Peter warns, if a person do not DO these things, being blind(lost), and forget that person was being forgived(according to Rev. 2:4 "because thou hast left thy FIRST LOVE" - 2 Peter 1:9.

Do you agree with 2 Peter 1:5-10?

There are lot of verses in the Bible teaching us of conditional salvation. Obivously, all of these do not teaching of security salvation.

I would like to hear your comment on these verses that I show you. Please stay on this same track, do not avoid or off the track like as rabbit.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

DeaconLew,

You asked 7 questions about a child or son.

Of course, God loves all children even include world. Who's the responsible for a person in the hell? God? No, this is not His responsible. I disagree with Calvinism doctrine. Person is the responsible for being end up in hell, because of not repent of sins, reject Christ, or never hear the gospel. Also, person is the responsible for being end up in the hell, because of person's own way, not want to give up, and follow Christ. Does God or Holy Spirit leaves a person while sinning? No. Who's the responsible for being lost? Person.

Jesus Christ gave the parable of the prodigal son in Luke 15:11-32. In the first place, the prodigal son was saved and alive when he was with his father. One day, a son asked his father, want possession or money, and leave. So, father gives the possession or money to his son. Father does not make a son into robot. Father allows son to have his own freewill. Calvinism does not believe in freewill. I does. Father cannot make his son to stay, he just let his son GO in his way. Same as a person turn away from Christ, going in person's own way is backsliden. When a son sinning in the dark, he becomes misery, he realized, that he already gone far away. He decided to return back to his father, that is repent. When, a father sees his son walking toward him. Does a father ignore his son? No. Father immediately ran to hug his son. God stills love a child, no matter how often sinned. God have a longsuffering toward us - 2 Peter 3:9. God is patience with people, while sinning, He could have punish them right now, if he wants to. But, He is patience with people, He does not want all people go into perish - everlasting fire, but He wants all people come to repentance - 2 Peter 3:9.

When after the prodigal son returns to his father. He says to his father, "I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, and am no more worthy to be called thy son:" Shows that a son is serious REPENT of sins toward his father. Same thing as we should repent of our sins to Christ.

When a brother sees his brother returns home, his father calls his two sons together, and he tells them, "for this thy brother was dead, and is alive AGAIN; and was lost is found."

Obivously, Christ tells us, a son who was saved in the first place with his father BEFORE he decides leave on his own way. When a son leaves his father, Christ tells us, a son becomes lost and dead.

IF suppose a son remain in his own way and sinned all the way to his death, is he remain lost and dead? Yes. That mean, a son is lost forever and ever- where? In an everlasting fire.

IF a just person decides turn away from the Lord, and remain in person's own way, sinning all the way through life till death, then, a person is lost and dead end up in an everlasting fire.

Do not argue with me. Argue with Jesus' words of Luke 15:11-32.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[PowerndBlood]

Why can't you see the truth of what God has given you?

I have laid hold on eternal life when i believed on Jesus Christ.

Quoting verses about what Jesus Christ was preaching and teaching to jews before they turned down their King does not overthrow the promises of the Grace of God revealed to Paul by Jesus Christ, AFTER the new testament was in place.

The truth is that there are no christians in any verse of matthew and the New Testament isn't instituted until chapter 26 and the word christian doesn't even show up until acts 11:26.

What Christ preached to them was the truth at that time and will be again as soon as the church is taken out.That is why James is written to the 12 tribes James 1:1 and an entire book is entitled Hebrews, there will be a need for the bible and guidance after the times of the gentiles is fulfilled, God didn't just comment on His wishes for now but also in the future.

Once the free gift is gone a person has to have faith and works and most will never make it because they turned their nose up at what Christ did for them on the Cross and they will be in a mess for doing so.


This is the only verse that i can think of that tells you how to study your bible,

2Tm:2:15: Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Dividing to me = some veres are dealing with lost people or saved people and sometimes both, also it helps to look at these things as well.

Is the verse before or after the cross of Christ?

Is the verse aimed at people that are left and have to go through the tribulation?

Did i add the word "water" to the verse when i saw the word baptism when the word water isn't in the entire book? some continue to do that and think that you can get born, live and die in acts 2 without ever going on to acts 10 and acts 15, it is a strange thing to me.

Does the way i understand this verse condtradict any other verses and if so which one must be meant for a different time frame?

*example - I have heard so many people try to say that Judas lost his salvation and i have to ask this question.

Jesus Christ said flat out that He had chosen 12 and one of them was a devil, was Judas a saved devil? I don't think so.

The Devil didn't enter him until AFTER Christ had made that statement.

We need to study our bibles and place verses just like they were said and to whom they were said.

You can't take verses that were taught before the cross and apply them doctrinely to people living on the other side, by they same token you can't add verses that are aimed at people after the church is gone and God is dealing with Israel again and make them fit the church age, you can but you end up trusting in yourself to keep you saved when the credit and trust belong to God.

I know that what i'm saying will not go to well with some but it is still the truth,

*example, you do not run to James 2 in order to add works to the free gift that Paul offers in Romans 4 or 10.You can but you are taking a book that was written to get gentiles saved(Romans) and trying to add a book that was written to jews(James 1:1 written to the 12 tribes and as well a book called Hebrews).When God again deals with them as a nation.

I am not trying to throw away or cut down any verse in the bible, just following orders and rightly dividing the word.Every verse either was true, is true or will be truth shortly.

*example - eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth was true but now we are told to turn the other cheek, both are bible and both are correct, just not at the same time.

Blast away, i can take it,

edited due to no typing skills at all,

[ October 04, 2004, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: PowerndBlood ]

 

[DeafPosttrib]

PowerndBlood,

You seems avoid to discuss or answer my questions on these verses, again you still hopping as rabbit. You seems not stay in the track as I shown you the verses.

You say:

The truth is that there are no Christians in any verse of matthew and the New Testament isn't instituted until chapter 26 and the word Christian doesn't even show up until Acts 11:26

Not true.

Often, the four Gospel books used word, 'disciples' long time before Matthew chapter 26. 'Disciples' find in Matthew 5:1; Mark 2:15; Luke 5:30; and John 1:35.

The definition of disciples simple mean people who FOLLOW Christ. The clearly verse defines of disciple in Luke 14:26-27 means a person who does not take cross and follow Christ, cannot be his disciples. Disciples simple mean followers. Christians is same as disciples. Christians mean a person who FOLLOW Jesus Christ. Word' Christians' shows more clearly explain in 1 Peter 4:16 tells us if any person SUFFERS AS a Christian, let him not be ashamed..." It shows us, that we should be suffer follow as what Christ's suffer in his example - 1 Peter 2:21.

Disciples simple means followers.

Also, word, 'church' was already mentioned BEFORE Matthew chapter 26, it appears in Matthew 16:18. Word, 'church' means God's people. Obivously, church was already there during Old Testament according to Acts 7:38; and 1 Corithians 10:1-4.

Jesus taught many things to his disciples for 3 1/2 years, many of these things what Christ to taught are apply to us that we ought to practical.

Isn't Luke 9:23 apply to us? Isn't Matthew chapter 5 to 7 apply to us? And more... of the four gospel books apply to us also.

You say:

What Christ preached to them was the truth at that time and will be again as soon as the Church is taken out. That is why James is written to the 12 tribes James 1:1 and an entire book is entitled Hebrews, there will be need for the bible and guidance after the times of the gentiles is fulfilled, God didn't just comment on His wishes for now but also in the future

This is type of dispensationalism doctrine.

I disagree.

James said in James 1:1 "James, a servant of God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are SCATTERED ABROAD, greeting."

I understand, the book of James was written in year around 50's A.D. years later after the twelve tribes were in Jerusalem during in that period around 33 A.D. according to Acts 1:8. Early Church was begin with in Jerusalem. Paul said, 'Jews first' - Romans 1:16. Shortly after church was start with in Jerusalem, the persecution hit Church in Jerusalem, then Christians were scattered out of Jerusalem spread into nations according to Acts 8:1.

I heard the theory of Lost Ten Tribes. The reason they teaching on that because of Revelation chapter 7.

I do believe in the theory of lost ten tribes of the Israel.

Pretrib teaches on Revelation chapter 7, all Jews of the twelves tribes will be gathering together and sealed them in the tribulation right after rapture. For Jews only?

Let you know, Tim LaHaye saying, both Revelation chapter 7 & 14 of 144,000 are different groups. I disagree.

Whose are the 144,000? Only Jewish male evangelists? Revelation chapter 7 does not saying, they are "Jewish male evangelists". Revelation chapter 14 explains the identify of 144,000 more clear.

Rev. 14:3,4 -"And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb."

Does Rev. 14:4 actually telling us, thes eare all virgins are men literally? No, this verse show us the symbolic meaning of these who are virgins means a person who keep life pure and separate from the world. Word, 'women' is not literally mean ladies. It represent world. How does I know? Rev. 14:4 shows according to Revelation chapter 17 & 18. 'Women' of Rev. 14:4 means harlots. God warns us, that we must come out of her - Rev. 18:4. That means, we do not compromise with the world as fornication. We must be pure and walk godly. And we are redeemed from the world.

144,000 represent us as we are Christ's fruitfruits, also, we are Israel - Eph. 2:12-13.

I understand, what in your mind of the book of James. In your mind of the book of James is NOT apply to us, it apply to the Jews only.

That is type of dispensationalism doctrine.

Also, many baptist pastors often saying, 'these verses are not apply to us, apply to the Jews, OR... these apply to the future tribulation saints etc..' The reason they are doing, because they dislike what these passages speak to us. They just avoid them, not apply to us. In cases, they do not teaching on any areas in the Bible which one of them is apply to us. They only avoid them. They only picking any verses which one of them is apply to us.

Paul says, "Preach the word" - 2 Tim. 4:2. He means that we ought to preach whole in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

You say:

Once the free gift is gone a person has to have faith and works and most will never make it because they turned their nose up at what Christ did for them on the Cross and they will be in a mess for doing so.

That is type of dispensationalism doctrine.

In my early Christian life. I often heard from pastors, and authors teaching, God have three different plans of salvation for the Old Testament period, Church Age, and Tribulaiton period. They saying, people in the Old Testament period were saved by keeping the laws. Now, we are in the New Testament period, we are saved by the grace only, not by works. Tribulation period - when after the rapture past, the grace gone, then people would have to be saved by keeping the laws and works.

For example, I am sure, some of pretrib pastors, and commentators saying of Rev. 14:12 telling us, that the saints would have to keep the laws and good works with their faith duyring tribulation after the rapture, because the Holy Spirit gone.

Is that what Rev. 14:12 actually saying? No. Rev. 14:12 always apply to us. In John 14:15 tells us, if we love Jesus, KEEP the commandments. What about Paul's teaching? Paul taught same as what Christ taught: "That thou KEEP this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:" - 1 Timothy 6:14.

God's plan of salvation never change since from the beginning to today and will always remain the same till the end of the age - Matt. 24:20 & Eph. 3:21.

Also, the reason, pretrib pastors telling to the congregation that Revelation chapter 6-18 is not apply to us, because the word, 'church' is not appear there, clearly, the church raptured in Revelation chapter 4. My question is, does, the word, 'church' appear up in the heaven anywhere from Revelation 4 to 19? Silence.

Also. pretrib pastors saying Revelation chapter 13 of 666 is not apply to us, because we will be gone anyway.

I disagree.

Revelation 13:9 warns to us, if any person have ear, LET person hear it- means, if any person either hearing or deaf have ear or eye, let person HEAR or KNOW the serious warning. Rev. 13:10-18 warning us, if any person worship the beast or receive the mark of the beast will go to everlasting fire. same as in Rev. 14:-9-11. All baptist pastors KNOW Rev. 13:10-18 & Rev. 14:9-11 are obivously teaching on conditional salvation even both are NOT security salvation. Yet, they saying these are NOT apply to us. Huh???

That why, I left pretrib camp 12 years ago, because that doctrine does not fit to the Bible. But, I was remain believe in security salvation till I left it only a year ago.

I agree with 2 Timothy 2:15 100% amen!

Word, 'Dividing' does not mean to cut it into two parts. It means, digging deeper or analyze. 2 Tim. 2:15 tells us, we should study Bible more deeper and seriously.

2 Timothy 2:15 is a type of Dispensationalism doctrine to use that verse. They misinterpreting this verse.

2 Tim. 2:15 simple telling us, that we are responsible to study the Bible carefully and correctly intepreting them to approved God.

You say:

Is the verse aimed at people that left and have to go through the tribulation?

All of these verses in the New Testament always apply to ALL saints through all centuries - Eph. 3:21 and Matt. 28:19-20.

Why does Jesus choose Judas as disciple in the first place? Does Christ made a mistake? No. Christ knows everything in the future. Judas was actually follow Christ for three years. Somehow, Judas did already negotiated with Pharisees BEFORE Lord's supper- Matt. 26:14-17; and Luke 22:1-7. Satan did enter Judas earlier BEFORE Lord's supper. The big question is, does Judas actually knew Satan came into him? I doubt. What about Peter? - Matt. 16:23; & Mark 8:33. I believe Satan was actually enter Peter. Was Peter actaully lost while deny Christ three times? Yes. But, Peter shortly later he got repented. God used Peter.

Does Judas was actual repented of his sins toward God? No. He was sorrowful repented himself, NOT toward God. Also, he was hanged on the tree by himself - Matt. 27:3-5. Obivously, Judas does not repent of his sins toward God, he repented HIMESLF.

I believe Judas is now in hell.

Now, I would like to hear your comment and answer all of these verses that I showed you. Please stay on the same track, do not hopping like as rabbit. Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[PowerndBlood]

wrong answers,

If you can get disciples that followed Jesus before the cross to be equal with a believer that has accepted what Christ did for them on the cross and are part of the Body of Christ you are smarter than me.

For instant a pre-cross disciple could not have faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, nor were they sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise or had their sins forgiven and covered by the only saving blood, also the New Testamnet wasn't even in effect or in place.

It took Paul getting things revealed to him by Christ to start preaching the Gospel of the Grace of God and he even had to explain it to Peter.

As far as all verses applying to all saints through all ages, your off your rocker, plain and simple.

* example - the Everlasting gospel(rev 14:7) and the Gospel of the grace of God(1 cor 15:1-4) are not the same at all.One says fear God and give glory to Him and the other calls on you to put you faith in death, burial and resurrection of Christ, not even close to the same.

Why do you think Paul warned about this and even spelled out the Gospel that he preached plan and simple in 1cor 15?


also, Christ didn't make a mistake with Judas, Judas was a devil from the start, that was the plan all along.

**John 17:12(While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.)

Jesus didn't say one of you will be overcome by the Devil, He said one of you IS A DEVIL, who went to his OWN place, get it?


If you dig deeper in your bible you will soon learn that if you do not rightly divide it you don't know where the jews fit in to Gods plans.

As i said above if you can't divide or tell the difference between followers actions or duties before any blood was shed or free gift was offered maybe you need to dig a little deeper.

How can you apply a verse to you if you are not here on earth when the verse takes place, come on now.

The word church is no where near the verses you posted in rev, the word isn't even recorded after chapter 3 until it shows up in Rev.22 with Christ offering the "FREE GIFT" one last time before the book closes.


There are differences for a reason,

*example - Pauls job was to preach the gospel and get people saved so why do people have to run and add James and Hebrews to Romans to come up with what you are saying, did Paul decieve the Romans by telling them it was by Grace and not of works and also a free gift that they could have if they ONLY called UPON the name of the Lord?????

You see how this works? You can't drag in what James wrote or what was said in a book called HEBREWS to jews scattered abroad that will soon have to endure til the end of a period of time and not their life into what Paul said just to confuse God's simple plan of Salvation for anyone who will except what He did for them on the cross.

Why did Paul offer a better deal to the Romans, salvation without works but James offered the 12 tribes faith with works included?


I do not plan on being here during the tribulation but if you do good luck because you will need it.

2Th:2:8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Th:2:9: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Th:2:10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th:2:11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th:2:12: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2Th:2:13: But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning CHOSEN you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2Th:2:14: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For God hath not appointed us to WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,AMEN.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I will reply back to you later tonight. Continue to discuss with you on verses and passages of the Bibke about faith, workd, and salvaton issue.

I just get home from work(3rd shift job) this morning. I need going to bed soon. I will reply back to you later tonight, what you saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Salinas]

Powernblood,

Here are verses that prove that disciples were saved before the cross.

Lk.10:20: Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Mt.5:16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven

Mt.5:45: That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Mt.5:48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

How can you name be written in heaven if you are not saved?
How can God be your father if you are not saved?

A person is saved by believing on Jesus.

 

[PowerndBlood]

There not the same to me for a few reasons,

1 - did you notice that not one word of a free gift is even mentioned, everything is pure WORKS?

2 - ALSO everybody He was talking to were jews that were looking for a King to come(Kingdom of Heaven)

3 - Lamb's book of Life is not mentioned at all

4 - The Comforter has never been sent to dwell in them and the promise of being sealed was never made at this time

5 - i could go on,

I'm not saying that they wouldn't/didn't end up excepting what Christ did on the Cross AFTER it took place, but there is no way that they could have been saved by believing what we believe before it ever HAPPENED or the FREE GIFT was revealed to Paul, nobody even knew about it.

A free gift is not free if you have to work for it or to keep it.

This is like trying to say that getting eternal life off the tree of life(Re:2:7) is the same as getting it off the tree of death(Ga:3:13), the tree of life is accessed by faith and works and has something to do with tribulation and the Devil(Re:2:10), while the tree of death gives eternal life to all that believe without works according to Paul.

 

[TC]

I'm not saying that they wouldn't/didn't end up excepting what Christ did on the Cross AFTER it took place, but there is no way that they could have been saved by believing what we believe before it ever HAPPENED or the FREE GIFT was revealed to Paul, nobody even knew about it.

Sure they did. The entire OT Law is an example of what Christ has done. Jesus told the Jews that if they truly believed Moses, then they would believe Him (Jesus) because Moses wrote of Him. And if you read the Psalms, you will see that David said that he was saved by God's grace. He know that was a free gift as no one deserves it.

To sum it up, the OT points forward to Jesus Christ and the sacrifice He made on the cross. Then, the gospels tell us of Christs life and His sacrifice. Finally, the rest of the NT (especially the books written by Paul) point back to Christ and His cross. It has always been about Jesus Christ.

 

[PowerndBlood]

David deserved death by the Old Testament laws that were in place but God had given him "sure mercies".

*Ac:13:34: And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

*Ro:4:6: Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
*Ro:4:7: Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
*Ro:4:8: Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Davis is a PERFECT example of what i'm saying, He was going to heaven because God said so AND NOBODY COULD CHANGE THAT, murder, adultry, lying and fornication didn't change his standing with God as far as his salvation was concerned but he sure had to reap what he sowed in the flesh, just as we do now. God is not mocked.

Look at these guys,

1- Saul, had the Spirit of God on him and God left him and never came back.

2- Samson, had the Spirit of God on him and He left and later came back.

3- David had the Spirit of God on him and messed up bigtime but the Spirit never left.

David wanted the JOY of his salvation back, not his salvation.

*Psalms:51:11: Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

*Psalms:51:12: Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

just throwing in something else that came to mind, Enoch was also a perfect picture of the church, he walked with God and God took him before the flood came just as He will take out the church before the tribulation/Time of Jacob's trouble gets started.

 

[DHK]

Will a Christian ever go to Hell?
Will Stalin ever go to Heaven?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I have several good things appear in mind today. I would like to show you verses in the Bible discuss about salvation doctrine issue.

Tomorrow or Sunday, I will show you the verses to prove us, these teaching us of conditional salvation. Wheen I am not busy tomorrow or Sunday - my night off from work, I will make post here to discuss more about salvation issue.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[PowerndBlood]

Okay DeafPosttrib, if you think it is "good things" that teach that at any momment 24/7 you could mess up and fry in hell i'm all ears.


I agree that there are verses that teach salvation call be lost, our disagreement is concerning who, where and when they apply.

When the times of the gentiles are fulfilled, the free gift is gone(what Paul has written to the gentiles is past) and the bible makes sure that it has something to say to those left behind when God takes the church and the free gift out and starts dealing with His choosen people again.

Nobody wants to be a gentile that turned down what Christ did on the cross for them, it is a major smack in the face of Christ and they will come out smoking, because as God has said He will send them strong delusion that they all would be damned.

God has promised to finish what He started in me and i trust that He will keep His WORD.

*Ph'p:1:6: Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


after reading, praying about and studying all the verses in the entire new testament(many times)that deal with losing salvation, i can still say that,

I'm confident!

 

[Salinas]

Okay one more time, get you bible out and read Rev. 20:14.
Hell and the Lake of Fire are NOT the same place!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Salinas:
Okay one more time, get you bible out and read Rev. 20:14.
Hell and the Lake of Fire are NOT the same place!

No they aren't. Death and Hell will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. That, however, doesn't make Hell any less of a place of eternal condemnation. Whether one suffers eternally in a place called hell (temporarily until the Great White Throne Judgement), and then placed in the Lake of Fire at his final sentencing what difference does it make?

If a prisoner is serving a life sentence and in his life sentence is moved from one cell to another cell, does it really make a difference? It is still a life sentence.
DHK

 

[PowerndBlood]

Great post DHK,

No problem Salinas, but i never said they were the same.

Hell = frying pan

Lake of Fire = oven

 

[gb93433]

I looked at the topic again and wonder how a follower of Jesus Christ could ever be in the place where those who rebel against Christ could be. Makes no sense at all.