Will a Christian ever go to hell?

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by gb93433:
I looked at the topic again and wonder how a follower of Jesus Christ could ever be in the place where those who rebel against Christ could be. Makes no sense at all.

If you believe that all Christians are going to be holy, then you are wrong. Calvinism and Arminianism are both wrong. Jesus didn't spend all His time telling us how to believe that He was the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world. He actually took away our sins. Do you believe that? Then you are going to be raised up on the last day. But a fornicator will not inherit the kingdom of God. An adulterer will not inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you. Some of you may be such again.

2Peter 2
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

This is talking about Christians, who, after receiving salvation, have attained to a state of holiness through the knowledge of the truth of accountability. If they then fall back into sin, their end will be worse then it would have been if they had just gotten saved and not even known about the judgment seat of Christ. This end is the loss that will be suffered if their works be burned at the judgment seat.

1Cor 3
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Here we see the same principle in Luke 12, two classes of saved Christians getting their rewards. Faithful servants and wicked servants.

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Unless you believe that the Lord calls unsaved people His servants, this is speaking of Christians. And we have the further division in this parable of the wicked servant class into wicked servants that knew and wicked servants that didn't know.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by James Newman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gb93433:
I looked at the topic again and wonder how a follower of Jesus Christ could ever be in the place where those who rebel against Christ could be. Makes no sense at all.

If you believe that all Christians are going to be holy, then you are wrong. </font>[/QUOTE]Then why does the Bible translate the word for holy ones in Greek as "saints" in English?

The Bible calls Abraham righteous but we know he was not perfect all the time. The Bible also says, "The righteous fall seven times and rise again."

You are taking look at scripture as though you were looking at an atom and calling it a product. You are looking at a speck and calling it acreage. The Bible does not do that and neither does God.

There is a huge difference between what the Bible labels one who lives a life of sin or practices sin and one who sins. We all sin but I hope none of us practice a life of sin. The non-believer lives a life of sin but the believer does not like to practice sin. It may be enjoyable for a moment but he is not happy about it. In Heb 12 God disciplines His own--those who are His.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I'm back.

DEFINITION OF 'SAINTS'

While I am studying salvation issue. In my mind, I know of the word - 'saints' means, 'the holy one'. I did looking at Bible Dictionary, to check this word. The Dictionary defines 'saints', the holy one, holy, set apart, sanctified, pure, devotion to the service of Deity, sharing in God's purity and abstaining from earth's defilement.

Common for Christians saying on 'saints', it simple means Christian or believer. Yes, they are correct. But, I think they seem not realize it is more than that.

I know of three good example persons in the Old Testament, that they were a TRULY saint.

1. Enoch - Genesis 5:21-22 say: "And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: And Enoch WALK with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughter:" It tells us, Enoch WALK WITH God. Walk with God means, have a very good relationship or devotional life with God. I am sure that Enoch was the only one man on earth during before flood era, walk holy life and relationship with God. Almost all people were not 'saints', they live defile and wicked.

Gen. 5:24 says: "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." It tells us, Enoch walked with God for 365 years, then he was not on earth, because he was took up by God alive.

In Hebrews 11:5-6 tell us, "By FAITH Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and NOT FOUND(refers to Gen. 5:24), -(why???) because God had translated himanswer-) for before his translation he has this TESTIMONY, that he PLEASED God. But WITHOUT faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God MUST BELIEVE that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that deiligently SEEK him."

God has a good reason for to took Enoch up alive, because GOd was please with Enoch for his good testimony and live holy separate from the world. So, therefore, Enoch was a TRULY saint. Obivously, it prove us, it is conditional salvation.

2. Noah - Genesis 6:8-9 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a JUST man and PERFECT in his generations, and Noah WALK WITH God."

Common for many Christians saying on Noah, word, 'just' mean saved. Well, it is MORE THAN THAT. 'Just' means, live rightly, live godly and holy, not doing evil things. 'Perfect' means live GODLY, holy, and pure. Noah hated sins and wicked. Obivously, Noah was a TRULY saint. That why God noticed only one godly man on the world is Noah. So, God called Noah to built Ark, Noah listened, and OBEYED God's commandment. OR.... What IF... Noah give up builtinh the big wood boat, by in the halfway within 50 years left, Noah feel like he wants quit, stopped built the Ark. Suppose, Noah feels in pressure, stress from people and his family while built the Ark. No doubt, I am people made fun at Noah, they think he is so nut. What if Noah's three sons do not get cooperative with him about working with him built the Ark. Also, Noah could have weary out from working so hard to built the big wood boat. He could feel like fed up and decide to stop built the Ark. What will happen to us???? ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLL people perished!!! That means, INCLUDE Noah and his family died in the flood for sure!!! So, obivously, it is conditional salvation!!!

3. Job - Job 1:1 "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was PERFECT and UPRIGHT, and one that FEARED God, and ESCHEWED EVIL." It tells us, Job was the only one man in the land of Uz, that he was a perfect, upright, fear, and hate evil. It was probably during Abraham's time shortly after flood period. Clear, it tells us, Job was walk with God, have a good relationship with God, live holy and hate wicked. Clearly, Job was a TRULY saint.

Dispensationalists saying there are different groups of saints. Three different groups of saints?? Bible does not saying it. They just make up. For example, dispensationalists teach that the Old Testament saints were saved by faith plus good works. Right now, we are in the New Testament period, the N.T. saints are saved by the grace only, not of works. Wait a minute... Look back to Gen. 6:8 tells us, Noah found GRACE. Grace always there in the Old Testament period long time before New Testament. God's plan of salvation never change. Dispensationalists saying, the grace was not yet pour upon the saints till Pentacost Day - Acts chapter 2. But, that is not biblical. Grace always there long, long time ago before Pentacost day! Thirdly, dispensationalists saying, when after the grace gone(Holy Spirit leaves - rapture in 2 Thess 2:6-7), then "tribulation saints' who will miss the rapture, will have to be saved by faith plus good works, follow Golden Rule, and Ten Commandments again during seven year of Tribulation period. Is that what the Bible saying? No.

Dispensationalists' interpreting of Rev. 14:12 telling us, that the saints will keep the commandments that they will keep the laws in the order for salvation, because the Holy Spirit will be gone by the time -rapture. Is that what the Bible actually saying? No. They just make-up, or adding it unto God's Word.

Bible commands us to keep the commandment. Where? In John 14:15 says, "IF ye love me, KEEEEEEEP my commandments." There is no difference between John 14:15 & Rev. 14:12, both are same. What about Paul's teaching? I find Paul's teaching on commandment in 1 Timothy 6:14 says, "That thou KEEEEP this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." There is no difference between Paul's teaching of 1 Tim. 6:14 with John 14:15; and Rev. 14:12. All are same meaning.

THe truly defintion of 'saints' mean, the people who are holy, set apart, hate wicked. Common for many 'Christians' in America saying, "saints simple mean Christian or believer." Yes, that is true. But, it is more than that. They seem do not realize 'saint' means 'the HOLY one' set apart, hate wicked.

I have an example: Suppose, a person chatting with any person at the bar, saying to a person, "I am a saint." Then, a person puzzles, and saying to him, "Saint? Why do you smoking and drinking in the bar?" A person is NOT a truly saint, he's hyprocrite - two faces, also do not practical godly life for God.

A person must show a good testimony and good example to the people. Suppose, a person going to work. A person must be careful, must have a good attitude, friendly, gentily to people, no matter what people would saying to a person, like as bad language or doing bad thing to person. A person will not doing with bad attitude toward people. For example- lost a temper, shout a bad language, etc. What IF... suppose, a person going to work. A person often having bad attitude habits. One day, a person saying to an employee, "I am a saint, I would like to share with the gospel?" Then, an employee might saying to a person, "Saint? No way! I am not interesting to hear the gospel, because you have bad attitude."

That is why, there are so many people who claim, they are Christians or saints(mostly often they saying "Christians" than 'saint'), but do not do practical life for God. That why many people do not want to hear gospel from them, because of BAD testimony. So, therefore, they are NOT a truly saint. Many people who claim, they're Christians, but allow thousands or millions os souls on the way to hell because of bad testimony. THANK to OSAS!!!

I heard a true story 15 years ago. During in year around 1870's, in Rochester, NY. When Charles Finney came to an employee at the factory, he was about planning to witness gospel to an employee. But, immediately, an employee quickly turned toward and touched Charles Finney's shoulder, asked for hear the gospel of Jesus Christ BEFORE Finney planning to ask a person for witness. Wow!! Because an employee can felt the Holy Spirit was moved upon Finney, he was filled with the Holy Spirit, also his good testimony too. In Fact, during Charles Finney's evangelical works, he traveled across New York State, to towns, cities, preached to millions. Millions were saved through him in the revivals.

Today, where are the truly saints in America? VERY rarely! Why? Because many people have hard time to notice a person who are a truly saint or Christian. The reason is, most people who attend churches such as baptist church, do not practical godly life, and most of them are compromising with the world. Most of them do not bear their fruits to lost people, that they may see their fruit-light(Matt. 5:14-16). That why more people are on the way to hell because of our bad testimony.

Bible commands us, that we ought carry the fruits, candle, and of course, salt to the world(Matt. 5:13), so, they CAN see our testimony, there would be the result of witness to them for salvation.

That's what the true defintion of 'saint' is all about.

Also, there is no difference between three meanings of 'saint' with 'Christian' & 'disciple'. All are same meaning. Christian means a person who follow Jesus Christ 100% completely. Same as disciple means, a person who follow Jesus Christ 100% completely - Luke 9:23; & 14:27.

Common for many people in America saying, "I am Christian"(very rare of them saying, "I am disciple"), but most of them do NOT follow Christ, they please the world more than God. So, they are not truly Christian or disciple or saint.- 1 John 2:15

Consequence: Teaching of unconditional salvation is unbiblical, and it is a dangerous doctrine, sorry to say it. Because, thoughout in the Bible teaching us, that we ought be godly life,(1 Peter 1:15-16 refer with Lev. 19:2)and be without blame, because Christ will judge us at the judgment day. There are so much overwhelming evidences in the Bible teaching conditional salvation.

Look at example of Noah. What IF... Noah decided to quit and give up stopped built the Ark, what happen to us? We would not be here on earth, all people already perished in the flood even include Noah and his family!!! Thank God, that Noah already determined to continue built the Ark for one hundred and twenty years without stop and quit. Wow!!! Can't imagine! Noah was very faithful!! That's how we are saved by the FAITH! Also, we are continue populating the world, more children born, and the gospel continue to spread over the world.

SEEEEE?? Make a sense??

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeaconLew]

DeafPostTrib,
I can see why you have come to the conclusion that you have. You are correct when you say that salvation is conditional. My question to you and others is which salvation? You may say "That is a strange saying! What do you mean which salvation?" Please hear (read) me out. Paul said to those as he was being carried by ship "Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved..." (Acts 27:31)

The word salvation is an english word that has a definition.
SALVA'TION, n. [L. salvo, to save.]
1. The act of saving; preservation from destruction, danger or great calamity.
Every human being needs to be saved from the eternal wrath of God. Yes God is angry with the wicked: Psalm 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

The good news for the wicked is that Jesus died for their sins. How is salvation from God's eternal wrath appropriated? Jesus told Nicodemus that he had to be born again. Jesus, knowing that man is so simple minded, likened being born again to natural child birth. Deaf, before you were born what did you offer your mom and dad to posses your natural life? Nothing! They did the work and you are here, praise the Lord. Nothing you did to "earn" it, and nothing you can do to "keep" it. Your dad's blood makes you, you and nothing on earth can change that!

Before I tell you of the other salvation that is mentioned in scripture, I want to make sure you understand what I have just said. Please let me know.
-DeaconLew

 

[DeafPosttrib]

During Storm in the sea, Paul told them on the shipt, anyone whosoever stay in this ship, cannot be saved. Paul knew this ship will be sunk down in this storm. His predict comes true, all of them were saved and alive made it on the Melita Island.

In 1 Timothy 1:19-20 tell us, Paul says: "HOLDING faith, and a good conscience; which some having PUT AWAY concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander: whom I delivered UNTO Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme."

Apostle Paul named of two persons, as he mentioned them. He knew them which were with him, and were followers of Christ in the first place. But, they turn away from Paul and Christ, and their faith is like as shipwreck, and they went AFTER Satan (according to 1 Tim. 5:15).

John 3:3, 7 speak of 'ye must be born again' means that we must repent of our sins. At first, we were dead in sins - spiritual death. That why Christ commands us, that we MUST be born again to be alive again. 'Born again' speak of being repent of our sins.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeaconLew]

Originally posted by DeaconLew:
DeafPostTrib,
I can see why you have come to the conclusion that you have. You are correct when you say that salvation is conditional. My question to you and others is which salvation? You may say "That is a strange saying! What do you mean which salvation?" Please hear (read) me out. Paul said to those as he was being carried by ship "Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved..." (Acts 27:31)

The word salvation is an english word that has a definition.
SALVA'TION, n. [L. salvo, to save.]
1. The act of saving; preservation from destruction, danger or great calamity.
Every human being needs to be saved from the eternal wrath of God. Yes God is angry with the wicked: Psalm 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

The good news for the wicked is that Jesus died for their sins. How is salvation from God's eternal wrath appropriated? Jesus told Nicodemus that he had to be born again. Jesus, knowing that man is so simple minded, likened being born again to natural child birth. Deaf, before you were born what did you offer your mom and dad to posses your natural life? Nothing! They did the work and you are here, praise the Lord. Nothing you did to "earn" it, and nothing you can do to "keep" it. Your dad's blood makes you, you and nothing on earth can change that!

Before I tell you of the other salvation that is mentioned in scripture, I want to make sure you understand what I have just said. Please let me know.
-DeaconLew

The most effective way to conduct a dialog is for one to ask/speak and the other to answer/speak. I would like you to reread my post and answer what I have said about being born again. Either lost people are born again as the bible suggests, or salvation is by works.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

BELIE'VE, v.t. To credit upon the authority or testimony of another; to be persuaded of the truth of something upon the declaration of another, or upon evidence furnished by reasons, arguments, and deductions of the mind, or by other circumstances, than personal knowledge. When we believe upon the authority of another, we always put confidence in his veracity.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Salvation is free by grace or it is by earned by works. What think ye?

-DeaconLew

 

[DeafPosttrib]

John 3:14 tells us, during in the wilderness, Moses lifted the serpent on the pole, and they looked up on it, and believed. Same as we believing that God send His Son to earth, died on the cross, we shall not go perish(hell) but have everlasting life.

People in the wilderness did believed what Moses told them to looking up at the serpent on the ploe, and they were healed. But for a short while, they stopped believing, and forget God, they perished - Hebrews 4:11(suggest you to read whole context of Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 talking about lesson of people in the wilderness, what happened to them).

Also, Romans 11:19-23 telling us, Jews were cut off because of their unbeliefs, as what God has done with people in the wilderness under Moses. We should not be one of the them.

I see many of OSAS and Reformed easily accuse us who opposite of security salvation, that we teaching that we must endure with the faith for salvation is part of works. I agree with Eph. 2:8-9 100% . We are saved by the faith through grace, not by works. It speaks of our self-righteousness cannot make us to enter into heaven by our own ways. In the first place, we are total depraved, and we cannot enter into heaven by our own self-righteousness and doing good works to earn for salvation to enter heaven. We are saved by faith to believing on Jesus Christ and follow him, that's it.

Grace is being mercy upon us, that we do not derserved going to heaven by ourselves, Christ died on the cross for us, Christ already washed our sins away through his blood. Aferward, we ask Christ to forgive us our sins daily through his blood.

The most important thing that we shoul do is remain faith and believing in Christ, and keep confess our sins to Christ daily(1 John 1:9), and walk godly all the way to the end, that what the salvation for.

I know there are much of misunderstanding by Calvinists, Reformers, baptists toward Arminianists or non-arminianists, what we really believed base upon Eph. 2:8-9.

Look at Abraham's example of Gen. 15:6; Romans 4:3-5; and Gal. 3:6. Abraham was saved by faith, not by works. Also, look in Hebrews chapter 11 give us the examples of O.T. saints were saved by the faith.

We are not saved by good works - self-righteous, we are saved by faith upon Jesus Christ only.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:


I see many of OSAS and Reformed easily accuse us who opposite of security salvation, that we teaching that we must endure with the faith for salvation is part of works. I agree with Eph. 2:8-9 100% . We are saved by the faith through grace, not by works. It speaks of our self-righteousness cannot make us to enter into heaven by our own ways. In the first place, we are total depraved, and we cannot enter into heaven by our own self-righteousness and doing good works to earn for salvation to enter heaven. We are saved by faith to believing on Jesus Christ and follow him, that's it.

If you believe that you cannot be saved or born again by works then certainly you cannot be unborn or unsaved by works. But too often those who don't believe in the security of the believer also believe you can lose your salvation. The only problem with that is they always cite issues of works they believe can undue salvation. But salvation is not by works anyway. So if works is never involved you cannot undue something not done with owrks by works. How can a person go frombeing lost to saved to lost again and saved and lost again. What secures salvation and what would undue it. Christ died once. Are we going to rehang Him on the cross again. Christ died once.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Stop and think.....

Look at example of the prodigal son in Luke 15:12-32. Does the passage of Luke 15:12-32 saying that the prodigal son was saved by doing good works? No. He was saved by REPENTED toward his father. Same as we are saved by repented of our sins toward Jesus Christ, and we must remain believing in Christ and abide in him all the way to the end.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[JAC]

Not sure if I completely understand your post.
We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ the Son of
God. Repentance is a necessary response on the
part of the forgiven sinner which confirms the
desire to be saved.
Once an individual truly believes in Jesus the Son of God that faith cannot be taken away.
Doubts do arise for many Christians but it doesn't necessarily mean they never were saved.

Are we thinking the same or were you stating another opinion?

 

[DeaconLew]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
John 3:14 tells us, during in the wilderness, Moses lifted the serpent on the pole, and they looked up on it, and believed. Same as we believing that God send His Son to earth, died on the cross, we shall not go perish(hell) but have everlasting life.

Do not add to the word of God. Consider Revelatoin 20:12 - 15. Hell and the lake of fire are not the same.

People in the wilderness did believed what Moses told them to looking up at the serpent on the ploe, and they were healed. But for a short while, they stopped believing, and forget God, they perished - Hebrews 4:11(suggest you to read whole context of Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 talking about lesson of people in the wilderness, what happened to them).

There you are adding again. Everyone that looked was healed. The only condition was looking one time. Not gazing at it forever. None of those that were healed when they looked, were unhealed when they looked away.

Also, Romans 11:19-23 telling us, Jews were cut off because of their unbeliefs, as what God has done with people in the wilderness under Moses. We should not be one of the them.

Amen!! We need to seek the kingdom of God (Mathew 6:9)

I see many of OSAS and Reformed easily accuse us who opposite of security salvation, that we teaching that we must endure with the faith for salvation is part of works. I agree with Eph. 2:8-9 100% . We are saved by the faith through grace, not by works. It speaks of our self-righteousness cannot make us to enter into heaven by our own ways. In the first place, we are total depraved, and we cannot enter into heaven by our own self-righteousness and doing good works to earn for salvation to enter heaven. We are saved by faith to believing on Jesus Christ and follow him, that's it.

What are you trusting to ensure that you are saved? Are you looking at your "fruit" at all to "know" you are saved? What if you had no "fruit?" Are you still saved?

Grace is being mercy upon us, that we do not derserved going to heaven by ourselves, Christ died on the cross for us, Christ already washed our sins away through his blood. Aferward, we ask Christ to forgive us our sins daily through his blood.

Amen!! Preach it!

The most important thing that we shoul do is remain faith and believing in Christ, and keep confess our sins to Christ daily(1 John 1:9), and walk godly all the way to the end, that what the salvation for.

Or we are not saved, right?

I know there are much of misunderstanding by Calvinists, Reformers, baptists toward Arminianists or non-arminianists, what we really believed base upon Eph. 2:8-9.

Better examine your fruit though, right?

Look at Abraham's example of Gen. 15:6; Romans 4:3-5; and Gal. 3:6. Abraham was saved by faith, not by works. Also, look in Hebrews chapter 11 give us the examples of O.T. saints were saved by the faith.

We are not saved by good works - self-righteous, we are saved by faith upon Jesus Christ only.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Brother, I suggest you carefully consider 1Cor 6:9-10, 1Cor 3:12-17. What is the kingdom of heaven, and what is this fire, who is it written to?

-DeaconLew

 

[DeafPosttrib]

No, I do not add words unto God's Word. Right now, many people who reject Jesus Christ and refused repented are in the hell. They already have the part of everlasting punishment.

Perish means punishment or destroy.

Hell shall be cast into the lake of fire - the final state as eternality punishment in Revelation 20:14.

Not difficult for us to read John 3:16, what it is talking about. Please stop being accuse me for saying that I adding it unto God's Word.

No, I do not add it John 3:14.

John 3:14 refers to Number 21:8-9, it recored that they did looked at it and they were healed. From Exodus to Deuternomony telling us, Israel easy forget God, when after they received blessings, then easy get complains. All of the first generation who came out of Egypt were all died before enter the land of Canaan - Numbers 26:64-65, only left Joshua and Caleb of the first generation to enter Canaan. THe rest of them were died because of their unbelief (please read Hebrews chapter 3 and 4). But the second generation of Israel did enter Canaan with Joshua and Caleb.

Again, look at John 3:15 & 16 word, 'believeth' means continue believing.

Also, look at John 3:36 says, "He that beieveth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God ABIDETH on him." It tells us, any person whosever believing on Christ shall have eternal life, but any person who not believing on Christ, shall not have eternal life, but the wrath of God remain on a person. That means, a person who continue not believing on Jesus Christ, the wrath of God is still on a person till a person repent of sins and believing on Christ, the wrath of God shall not remain upon a person.

'Kingdom of God' is not speak of future millennial kingdom, it speak of eternal life, also, we do not look upon earth's things, because these are temporary, we look above of eternality things, and God's kingdom, that what Matt. 6:9 talks about.

Let's discuss on fruit. Let's read Galatians 5:18-25. Paul said: "But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the Law". He tells us, if suppose, we are being lead by the Holy Spirit, as we are in Christ, then we are not under the law(sins or flesh).

Apostle Paul named of 'sins' - Gal. 5:19-21

1. adultery
2. fornication
3. uncleanness
4. lasciviousness
5. idolatry
6. witchcraft
7. hatred
8. variance
9. emulations
10. wrath
11. strife
12. seditions
13. heresies
14. envyings
15. murders
16. drunkeness
17. revelings


These names of sins, what they doing, CANNOT enter the kingdom of God, that means, they who are remain in wicked and without repent of their sins, cannot have eternal life, will go into everlasting punishment.

Now, let's discuss about fruits - Ga;. 5:22-23

Fruits are:

1. love
2. joy
3. peace
4. long-suffering
5. gentileness
6. goodness
7. faith
8. meekness
9. temperance

These are against the flesh, these are no sin, they are pure - vs. 23.

These are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts - vs. 24. That means these are pure against flesh and sin.

Important verse 25: "IF we live in the Spirit, let us also WALK in the Spirit

How shall I know my fruits? Simple, I obey what Galatains 5:19-21 command me NOT to do these, verse 22-23 command me to do these and to carry the fruit.

Fruit means, developing our spiritual charcter and relationship with Christ.

The world can see our fruit, if we carry with our fruit with our good testimony, so, they may be saved through our fruit.

OR... if I do wicked things according to Gal. 5:19-21, without repent toward Christ, then I cannot have eternal life.

Gal. 5:19-21 is refer same as in Rev. 21:8 gives the names of sins, they do done evil, cannot have eternal life, will suffer the second death - everlasting punishment.

I know I am saved, because I obey Gal. 5:22-23 as I carry the fruit and abide in Christ according to John chapter 15.

you asked "Or we are not saved right?"

yes, Unless IF you endure in Christ all the way to the end according to Matt. 10:22; Matt. 24:13; and Heb. 3:14 too.

I have been study 1 Cor. 3:11-17. Often, OSAS emphasis on 1 Cor. 3:15 prove us, that no person shall lose their salvation - "but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

I understand verse 15 speaks of cut into two parts of two persons, how does I know?

Number one: "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss : Let's paused at the first part of verse 15. Notice after the word 'loss', it shows of ': it shows it paused on the first part of the grammar.

Then, the next part of the grammar continued, "BUT he himself SHALL BE saved; yet so as by fire." It speaks of different person.

I understand of verse 15 speaks of two persons. How does I know?

The only way that we can understand what this verse talking about. Go and read in the book of Proverbs. Often, you will see "...: BUT..." in verses in the book of Proverbs.

I give you few examples of "...: BUT..." in the book of Proverbs:

"Treaures of wickedness profit nothing: BUT righteousness deilvereth from death." - Proverbs 10:2

"The Lord will not suffer the soul of the righteous to famish : BUT he casteth away the substance of the wicked." - Proverbs 10:3

"He becometh poor that dealth with a slack hand: BUT the hand of the diligent maketh rich." Proverbs 10:4

And goes on..... read through whole context of chapter 10 talk lot on "...: BUT..."

I suggest you read throughout book of Proverbs talk lot about "...: BUT..."

I understand of these verses in the book of Proverbs speak of the opposite things between two persons. It speak of the between of evil & just in the opposite ways.

Same with 1 Cor. 3:15 speaks the opposite things between lazy servant and faithful servant.

The first part of verse 15 speaks to the lazy servant. servant's work shall be revealed in the fire in the judgement day. Fire represents test and will reveal our works what our result would be. The first part of verse 15 telling us, a servant's work shall be burned that mean he shall SUFFER LOSS, it speaks of lazy servant. Then, the last part of verse 15 speak to the faithful servant SHALL BE SAVED, as the sreult will be revealed by the fire through faithful servant's work in the judgement day.

We are not being offically saved at once during in our life. We ought to endure through our life till the end then shall be saved - Matt. 10:22; Matt. 24:13; Heb. 3:14; and Jude 3.

1 Cor. 3:15 does not prove us of security salvation. It speak of our conditional based on our works shall be revealed through fire in the judgement day.

You asked me, who is it written to? Apostle Paul wrote to ALL churches of the saints, it always apply to us. Even, Gal. 5:19-21 given warning to us as Churches, that we ought not do evil things, or we cannot have eternal life.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!


These are Christ

 

[simnesan]

The Key's to the Kingdom of Heaven can be found on this Island Please copy and past the link below into your address bar.
http://webpages.charter.net/ennisisland/ennisisland/

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Simnesan,

Glad, you join with us at Baptistboard!

Hope you will enjoy fellowship and discuss with us with a warm friendly each other.

I did read your site, also read 'A Warning to the Churches'.

There are so many things that I do not agree with your interpreting on verses. Tomorrow, I will reply back to you about 'A Warning to the Churches'. I have been reading through whole book of Revelation many times for over 16 years, yet I still learning never till I die or Christ comes.

Revelation chapter 2 and 3 show there so overwhelm warning prove that these are conditional. I will discuss on Revelation chapter 2 and 3 and also Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 too tomorrow.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[PowerndBlood]

God either sees your life when He looks at you spiritually or He sees Christ's, don't ever think that yours can add up because you will be found wanting.

Born again christians DO NOT SIN and CANNOT SIN in their SOUL because they are born of God, thats Bible just as much as any verse you post.

***1Jo:3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

*here comes the kicker, pay close attention because if you can sin(spirit) you were never saved or born again to start with

***1Jo:3:6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

The object of reading the Bible,imo is to let God be true and every man a liar and that can only be done by understanding which verses are spritual and which are taught concerning the flesh, you can't have it both ways and not make God a liar, it's really that simple.


EXAMPLE = 1Jo:3:6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

You cannot say you have no sin(flesh) because Paul flat out told us better than that and so did John.

*1Jo:1:8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


That leaves a person that is seeking the truth with a big mess, you have two verses in the same book saying different things, 1John 1:8 says that your DECEIVED if you say you do not sin but at the same time 1John 3:6 states that IF you sin you NEVER KNEW Him (lost)to start with.


If you rightly divide the bible, you will understand that the believers soul is sealed by God(col 2) and cannot sin because His seed remaineth in him.

*1Jo:3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Soul & Spirit = sinless, sealed, and part of the body of Christ. Christ's body has NO sin and will NEVER have any sin.

Now, concerning the flesh, everyone knows how rotten it is and even a saved apostle(Paul) told you that in him(his flesh)was no good thing and that he was a wretched man with sin dwelling in his body.

Did Paul lose his salvation?

*Ro:7:23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

I decided long ago that i would HAVE to read and understand the bible to where ALL Verses are true and not contradicting each other as it seems they do, until they are rightly divided.


Jesus Christ is PERFECT and so am I(spiritually) in this world.According to the verse below.


*1Jo:4:17: Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have BOLDNESS in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

*1Jo:4:18: There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.


I'm not afraid of losing it, not for one second.

Pretty simple stuff, you can't be sinless and yet a sinner at the same time without one verse dealing with the spirit and the other dealing with the flesh that keeps messing up and is still under a curse until the new body is given.

 

[James_Newman]

So what about the verses where Jesus warns His disciples of being cast into hell fire? Is there? And whatabout 1 Cor 3, where paul warns of Christians suffering loss at the judgment seat if their works burn up?

 

[PowerndBlood]

James, good questions.

Jesus was preaching/teaching to jews that were still under the old testament laws and He taught them exactly what He had to(the truth) at that time, not only that He also practiced what He preached and had to in order to GIVE ME a free gift and count His life(perfect) for mine(sinful), all those laws are fulfulled and given to me when i accepted His life and He died because of mine. We traded and i got the better deal for sure.Paul was shown what to preach later.

1 cor 15 1-4 = gospel for now

also, anybody that died at that time had no free gift in place to give them at that time and the new testament wasn't ready to be believed upon until after the resurrection.

Also, the things taught to the jews in matt:5,6, 7 and 24, 25, James, Hebrews and others will be back in place once the free gift is over with and the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.

God goes back to dealing with His chosen people for what they did when they rejected their King, not a pretty site for most.


1cor 3 - The loss is caused by the sinning flesh, not the soul, that is why the soul is saved yet so as by fire. No loss of salvation, just rewards.

We need to believe and listen what Christ told Paul to tell the the gentiles,

1 Cor 15 1-4!

Ro:16:25: Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to "MY GOSPEL", and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the "MYSTERY", which was kept "SECRET" since the world began.

To sum it up Jesus Christ preached the truth to all that He preached to, but so did Paul.

WE can't say or teach this stuff without making a mess, examples

1- free gift is only free until you mess up then you lose it

2- you can't sin or you lose it but you can get it back, not in Hebrews you can't

Heb:6:4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb:6:5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb:6:6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If a jew takes the mark or doesn't have the works he is toast.

3- nobody gets born again, unborn, born again again, etc.

4- Christ paid it all, until you except Him then you are on thin ice and may go to hell anyway.

5- God will whip you because you are His but also put you in hell because your not His any longer

6- trust what Christ did for you but also watch out because it must not have been enough without your 2 cents worth added to it.

At this time all God reguires of us is to believe in His Son and what He went through so we could be forever with Him.

before the cross = had to keep the laws

after the cross = free gift to those who accept Christ as their personal Saviour

after fulness of the gentiles = Jews must endure until the end(matt 24) of the tribulation without messing up because Christ's life and death are no longer given to anyone freely and they must do as directed in the sermon of the mount and matt 24,25.

Notice that He was talking to jews only in thoses passages, they will need them soon?

sorry i can't type any better,

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Good Evening.

PowernBlood,

You misinterpreting of 1 John 3:6; and 9, what these are talking about.

Let's read verse 6 very carefully: "Whososever abideth in him sinneth NOTspeak to followers) whosoever SINNETH hath NOT seen him, neither known him.(speak to disobedient person)"

Verse 6 commands us, any person who is endure in Jesus Christ, do NOT doing wicked things, because 1 Peter 1:15-16 command us, that we must be holy, because Christ is holy.

Also, let's read verse 9 carefully, "Whosoever is born of God DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed REMAINETH in him: and he CANNOT SIN, because he is born of God."

Verse 9 tells us, any person who is born of God- Do NOT DOING commit sin, because person's seed remaining in Christ (remember it speak of the parable of four types of seed in Matthew 13:3-9, 18-23; and Luke 8:5-15)and a person do not doing wicked things because he is born of God. That mean, once we repented of sins, and born again received Jesus Christ, our seed begins to growing as we carry our fruits, our seeds MUST BE REMAIN in Christ according to John 15:1-7, at the same time it commands us, we must be holy to be like Christ, because He is holy.

Bible does not saying to us, it says, "it is all right you can do little sin, if you want to, that is fine, long as you are already born of God, and remain saved at once."

Let's look 1 John 1:8 very careful: "IF we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Verse 8 tells us, if any person saying, "I never sin for 1 week, or a month....." a person is a liar. EVERYONE do commit sinned everyday. I admit, I sinned everyday. Everyone of you did sinned everyday.

So....

1 John 1:9 says, "IF we confess our sins, he is FAITHFUL and JUST to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Verse 9 tells us, it promises us, if we confess our sins to Christ, He will immedietaly forgive our sins in every prayer & confession, he won't forsake our confession. In other word, this verse commands us, we must confess our sins to Christ daily faithfully. OR... if we do commit sinned, and not yet confess ask to Christ to forgive our sins, Christ won't forgive our sins. If suppose a follower commit sinned daily and continue sinning wihtout confess to Christ, Christ won;t forgive follower's sin, what IF...... a person who already accepted Christ, and did walk in Christ for a while, then stopped walk with Christ, and turn away, and stopped confess sins to Christ, will remain in sins without repent ALL THE WAY to death, then a person will remain in death(spsiritual) without repent, Christ do NOT forgive person's sin(future), what happen to person? Go to everlasting punishment.

1 John 3:6 & 9 appear in mind, it refer to John 5:14 & 8:11. In John 5:1-16 tell us, about a blind man at the pool. Christ met him there, and he healed him to see, THEN shortly later, he mete him again, and said to him, "Behold, thou art made whole: sin NO MORE, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

Christ told him, that he is already made healed and forgived, BUT, do not doing sin again.

Same as in John 8:2-11, when the scribes and Parisees took a woman to face Jesus Christ, thold Him, that they criticized woman's sin. Then, Christ's finger wrote on the ground and insult them, says: "He that is WITHOUT sin among you, let him first first cast cast a stone at her." They were struck and dropped walked away. Christ rebuked them, because they were full of hyprocrite without repent, still have sins in them, they cannot judge or cast stone at her, because they have sins same as she have sins. After they walked away, see no one left there, and then Christ said to her, "Woman, where are those thine accusers(Scribes & Pharisees) hath no man condemned thee?" (verse 10), then she told him, no. Then, Christ said to her, "Neither do I comdemn thee: go and sin NO MORE." Christ told her, go and do not sin again.

Same as in 1 John 3:6 and 9 command us, we do NOT do sin, because we are born of God.

Often, I hear argue from OSAS- can a person be unborn again?

My understand of John 3:3, 7 'born again' speak of 'you must repent of your sins'. At the first place, we were die(spiritual) in sins, so, we must be born again(to live again-spiritual) speak of must repent our sins to Christ.

Same with Prodigal son in Luke 15:32 - "...for this thy brother was dead, and is ALIVE AGAIN; and was lost, and is found."

It tells us, the prodigal son was alive in the first place when he was with his father, but he decides, want to leave father's place in his own ways, he become dead in sins. Then, he turn back to his father and repented of his sins, then he become alive again. It speak of spiritual, not physical.

Bible commands us, that we must remain live in Christ same as 'abide' in Him, or... if we still walk in sins, our spiritual is death.

Understand?

You mentioned of 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

Please look in 1 Cor. 15:2 - "By which also ye are saved, IF ye KEEEEEEP in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."

It tells us, we are saved-IF we keep the commandments(John 14:15; 1 Tim. 6:14), or being believED the gospel is vain, it speaks of if we do not keep the commandment, then our hope is vain.

You say,

Also, the things taught to the jews in matt 5,6,7 and 24,25, James, Hebrews and others will be back in place once the free gift is over with and the times of the gentiles are fulfilled

You just adding unto God's Word, Sorry to saying that. No. Matthew chapter 5 to 7 - Christ was speak to the crowd, means that he was speak to unbelievers among with disciples. Of course all of them were Jews, but this does not mean that it is for the Jews only, also, it apply to us as followers either Jew or Gentile.

Matthew chapter 24 and 25 is not just for the Jew only, notice in the context of chapter 24, Christ said, "ye", "you" find about 19 times. Obivously, he speaks to us as individual either Jew or Gentile.

Isn't Matt. 24:36, & 42 apply to us also?

Matthew chapter 25 always apply to us every individual either Jew or Gentile, because Christ shall come again to judge the world, that means He will judge us all - judgment seat of Christ/great white throne of Matt. 25:31-46. Obivously, the whole context of Matthew chapter 25 always apply to us either Jew or Gentile.

Often OSAS pastors pick 'free gift' of Romans 6:23 out of the context of chapter 6, what the whole chapter 6 talking about. Romans chapter 6 commands us that we ought to walk in spirit with Christ, do not sow sins and reaping them lead to death(Romans 6:23a). I love verse 23, it is the promise for us, that the gift is eternal life through Jesus Christ.

We must hold the hope of eternal life(gift) all the way to the end - Col. 1:23; Hebrews 3:14.

'Christ paid it all'

OSAS pastors stress or emphasis teaching on Calvary, that Christ's blood already wash all our sins away at once for past, present, and future too.

In Hebrews 10:26 says: "For IF we sin willfully AFTER that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice for sins."

It tells us, if we sinning as we want to do and continue AFTER that we heard the gospel, and believed it, THEN, no more sacrifice for our sins - FUTURE sins.

Yes, Jesus Christ did pay all our sins in his blood at once - Hebrews 10:10, only for our sins in the past. Also, we have to confess our sins to Christ if we commit sinned in the future, His blood will continue forgive us all - 1 John 1:9.

before the cross = had to keep the laws

after the cross = free guft to those who accept Christ as their personal Saviour

This is dispensationalism doctrine.

What about Abraham in Romans 4:3-5? What about O.T. saints in Hebrews chapter 11?

We are not saved by the laws. We are saved by the faith.

Bible emphasis us that we shall have eternal life by have our FAITH. Or... if we stopped believing in Christ, we shall be cut off - Romans 11:19-23 & John 15:1-7.

after fulness of the gentiles = Jews must endure until the end (Matt 24) of the tribulation without messing up because Christ' life and death are no longer given to anyone freely and they must must do as directed in the sermon of the mount and matt 24,25

You adding it unto God's Word. Sorry to saying that.

Again, Christ said, "Ye" "You" find 19 times in the context of Matthew 24. Obivously, it apply to us all as individually either Jew or Gentile as followers.

Isn't Matt. 24:36, 42 apply to us?

Gospel will remain continue spread over the world during tribulation till the end come - Matt. 24:13; & Matt. 28:19-20.

"Free gift" of Romans 6:23 still have a oppunrinity to everyone in the world, even, during under Antichrist's reign. Once Christ comes to earth with the angels then the oppurinity will be finished - 1 Cor. 6:2.

There are so much overhwleming evidences in the Bible teaching us of conditional salvation, no way that we can deny them. We have obey all of these as Christ commands us - John 14:15.

Or, if any person do not obey the commandment, will cast into the everlasting fire at Christ's coming - 2 Thess. 1:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

[ October 12, 2004, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: DeafPosttrib ]

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by PowerndBlood:
James, good questions.

Jesus was preaching/teaching to jews that were still under the old testament laws and He taught them exactly what He had to(the truth) at that time, not only that He also practiced what He preached and had to in order to GIVE ME a free gift and count His life(perfect) for mine(sinful), all those laws are fulfulled and given to me when i accepted His life and He died because of mine. We traded and i got the better deal for sure.Paul was shown what to preach later.

1 cor 15 1-4 = gospel for now

also, anybody that died at that time had no free gift in place to give them at that time and the new testament wasn't ready to be believed upon until after the resurrection.

Also, the things taught to the jews in matt:5,6, 7 and 24, 25, James, Hebrews and others will be back in place once the free gift is over with and the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.

God goes back to dealing with His chosen people for what they did when they rejected their King, not a pretty site for most.


1cor 3 - The loss is caused by the sinning flesh, not the soul, that is why the soul is saved yet so as by fire. No loss of salvation, just rewards.

We need to believe and listen what Christ told Paul to tell the the gentiles,

1 Cor 15 1-4!

Ro:16:25: Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to "MY GOSPEL", and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the "MYSTERY", which was kept "SECRET" since the world began.

To sum it up Jesus Christ preached the truth to all that He preached to, but so did Paul.

WE can't say or teach this stuff without making a mess, examples

1- free gift is only free until you mess up then you lose it

2- you can't sin or you lose it but you can get it back, not in Hebrews you can't

Heb:6:4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb:6:5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb:6:6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If a jew takes the mark or doesn't have the works he is toast.

3- nobody gets born again, unborn, born again again, etc.

4- Christ paid it all, until you except Him then you are on thin ice and may go to hell anyway.

5- God will whip you because you are His but also put you in hell because your not His any longer

6- trust what Christ did for you but also watch out because it must not have been enough without your 2 cents worth added to it.

At this time all God reguires of us is to believe in His Son and what He went through so we could be forever with Him.

before the cross = had to keep the laws

after the cross = free gift to those who accept Christ as their personal Saviour

after fulness of the gentiles = Jews must endure until the end(matt 24) of the tribulation without messing up because Christ's life and death are no longer given to anyone freely and they must do as directed in the sermon of the mount and matt 24,25.

Notice that He was talking to jews only in thoses passages, they will need them soon?

sorry i can't type any better,

The problem with this, however is that now you have effectively reduced the bible to John 3:16 and the first half of Romans 8:1. There is no reason to believe that Christ spent His ministry teaching His disciples how to work to be saved, and then died on the cross so that they wouldn't have to follow His commandments. Christ said if you love me, keep my commandments. Now obviously He didn't say to do this to be saved in eternity, that would directly contradict much scripture that plainly teaches we are saved by grace alone through faith. But there is another answer than the one you have provided, that allows for a more literal interpretation of the bible.

The bible says that God chastens His children.
Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Revelation 3:19
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

We are become children of God when we are born again. There is no reason to believe that this is not speaking to us as Christians. As Christians, we are commanded to live holy lives. Otherwise, God will rebuke and chasten us. The bible says that we can despise this chastening.

Hebrews 12
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

But He will chasten us, if we are truly His children.

Hebrews 12:8
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

We have no biblical reason to say that this chastening cannot extend into the next world, if we despise chastening in this life, and do not repent of our sins. There is no verse in the bible that says a Christian cannot go to hell. Why should we believe that when Christ warned his disciples of hell fire, that He was not being literal?

 

[PowerndBlood]

James, i must ask you a few simple questions, alright.

1 - How much sin does it take to lose it?

2 - If salvation is lost, how do i get it back?

3 - Why didn't God just kill any believer as soon as they got born again and not let them chance hell, i mean He loved them enough to die for them, so why not love them enough to kill them and make sure they went to heaven?

4 - If i sin after salvation does it make Christ's body sinful seeing as i am bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh?

Your way of seeing things does not bring the honor and glory to Jesus Christ that it should, it gets side tracked on self, without God doing it you couldn't even repent.

FTR, i'm not saying that a saved person can get by with sin(nobody can), just that they are God's and nothing can change that.He may have to kill them for their sins in the flesh but NOT their soul.

*Ro:8:38: For I am persuaded, that neither death(didn't take it), nor life(living take it), nor angels(can't take it), nor principalities(can't take it), , nor powers(can't take it), , nor things present(didn't take it), , nor things to come,(future can't take it),

*Ro:8:39: Nor height(can't take it), , nor depth(can't take it), , nor any other creature(can't take it), , shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That covers everything you can think of, notice that was written to people that are saved and born again after the cross.