Will an "elect" person die lost?

[pinoybaptist]

A person goes to heaven instead of hell for all eternity.

okay, so you are talking salvation to and for eternity in God's presence, a.k.a eternal salvation, the one where Christ atoned for the sins of the elect with His blood, where the blood of the Lamb covers all the sins of the elect, past, present and future (sins), that salvation where when one closes his eyes in death here on earth, he opens it in the presence of God and the angels in the eternal heavens.
I'm just making sure I understood you correctly.
and the answer is "yes", "si", "absolutamente", "qui", "hai".
That salvation is passive to the elect.
It required nothing.
not faith, not obedience, not knowledge, not any single input from the elect sinner.
"the Lord hath laid on Him the inqiquity of us all....by His stripes we are healed"....it pleased the Lord to bruise Him....But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us....For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. .....not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us".

Anybody who insists that faith is A MUST for eternal salvation has fallen from grace, and a deep examination of that insistence, and doctrine, if you will, (and I say this with all due respects to you, my friend) should reveal that eternal salvation is limited in scope (only to those who has knowledge) and in beginning (began AFTER gospel preaching) contrary to what the Bible says that the righteous (the elect) in Christ come from ALL nations, and kindred, and people, and tongues.

now, SALVATION IN TIME, on the other hand, that one requires repentance (from dead works and idols), obedience to the gospel, faith in God and His Son, baptism, church attendance, and all those things that we look for as tangible EVIDENCES of a regenerate soul.

The disobedient elect can be lost in time in this sense, the "backslidden" child can be lost in time, but never lost to and for eternity. They are FIRMLY in God's hands because He has decreed their presence with Him from the foundation of the world.

 

[webdog]

Anybody who insists that faith is A MUST for eternal salvation has fallen from grace, and a deep examination of that insistence, and doctrine, if you will, (and I say this with all due respects to you, my friend) should reveal that eternal salvation is limited in scope (only to those who has knowledge) and in beginning (began AFTER gospel preaching) contrary to what the Bible says that the righteous (the elect) in Christ come from ALL nations, and kindred, and people, and tongues.

Am I the only one here who sees this as another gospel? Faith is not required for eternal salvation?!

 

[DrJamesAch]

Posted by Pinoybaptist but knowledge of His Savior was never a requirement for eternal salvation;.....

That salvation is passive to the elect.
It required nothing.
not faith, not obedience, not knowledge, not any single input from the elect sinner.

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." John 8:24

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:1

" These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." Hebrews 11:13

"And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief." Hebrews 3:18-19

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" 2 Thess 1:8

" By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name" Romans 1:5

"But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" Romans 16:26

'My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." Hosea 4:6

"And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me." John 16:3

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me" John 16:8-9

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" John 11:25 (Oh and Calvinists, pay attention to that "though he were dead" part!)

There's about 100 more verses or so I could post that show that faith, faith being in Christ, which requires knowledge of Christ and obedience to the gospel are required for salvation.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Am I the only one here who sees this as another gospel? Faith is not required for eternal salvation?!

No you aren't. It is another gospel.

 

[pinoybaptist]

No you aren't. It is another gospel.

No. It is not.
The "other" gospel is the gospel of an available/possiblesalvation that requires action on the part of a sinner in order for the blood of the Lamb of glory to be effective. Is that your gospel ?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Jesus said, "He that believeth not is condemned already."

I'll go with Jesus on this one. One must believe or one is condemned.

 

[pinoybaptist]

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." John 8:24

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:1

" These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." Hebrews 11:13

"And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief." Hebrews 3:18-19

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" 2 Thess 1:8

" By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name" Romans 1:5

"But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" Romans 16:26

'My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." Hosea 4:6

"And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me." John 16:3

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me" John 16:8-9

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" John 11:25 (Oh and Calvinists, pay attention to that "though he were dead" part!)

There's about 100 more verses or so I could post that show that faith, faith being in Christ, which requires knowledge of Christ and obedience to the gospel are required for salvation.

Well, I congratulate you for your knowledge of hundreds of verses but let me ask you this: IF as you say, faith borne of knowledge is what finally makes ETERNAL salvation a reality for the sinner, then all those who KNEW NOT of Christ and His death and resurrection are all damned to hell, isn't that the logical conclusion ?

Now, if that is the logical conclusion, then where do we begin to count as to the proliferation of knowledge and belief. Where is the point IN TIME when we can truly say souls began to get eternally saved ?

Please note.
I do not deny the need of knowledge and faith, what I do deny is their need IN ORDER for the work of Son to be truly applicable to the purpose for which it was done.

 

[DrJamesAch]

.

Well, I congratulate you for your knowledge of hundreds of verses but let me ask you this: IF as you say, faith borne of knowledge is what finally makes ETERNAL salvation a reality for the sinner, then all those who KNEW NOT of Christ and His death and resurrection are all damned to hell, isn't that the logical conclusion ?

The answer to that is in the verses sited. I included all the of the verses that covered faith, believe not, and obedience to the gospel as well as knowledge of Christ.

Now, if that is the logical conclusion, then where do we begin to count as to the proliferation of knowledge and belief. Where is the point IN TIME when we can truly say souls began to get eternally saved ?

It is not merely proliferation of knowledge, the gospel of Jesus Christ is not a Gnostic concept which appears to be what you are arguing for because you are simply arguing for faith and knowledge without an Object.

Please note.
I do not deny the need of knowledge and faith, what I do deny is their need IN ORDER for the work of Son to be truly applicable to the purpose for which it was done

I am not arguing that you are denying knowledge and faith, but what I am arguing is that knowledge and faith are not saviours. Oprah says "have faith". The question is not have faith, the question is faith in WHAT? in WHO? You are merely admitting to the existence of Christ and that knowledge and faith are somehow independent and equally salvific without the Saviour. That my friend is not the gospel of the Bible but Gnosticism.

 

[pinoybaptist]

The answer to that is in the verses sited. I included all the of the verses that covered faith, believe not, and obedience to the gospel as well as knowledge of Christ.

where ? I need your answer. are they all damned to hell ? to perdition ? we are talking about eternal salvation, aren't we ? so if one is eternally saved because of one's knowledge and obedience, then one is eternally damned because one is ignorant of and/or disobedient to the gospel.

It is not merely proliferation of knowledge, the gospel of Jesus Christ is not a Gnostic concept which appears to be what you are arguing for because you are simply arguing for faith and knowledge without an Object.

arguing for faith and knowledge without an object ?
lol.
are you sure you understood what I was saying ?
oh, well, maybe it's my fault, I didn't grow up in your language.
okay.
let me go at it again.
The eternal salvation of His people is God's purpose and He alone accomplished it. That salvation is a gift for which He set no prerequisites that the recipient must meet.
That salvation was something that He purposed in eternity past for the people whose names He foreknew and wrote in His book of life from the foundation of the world.
That eternal salvation is entirely passive for the elect sinner.
It was his/hers while he was yet dead in sin and trespasses, and unregenerate.
God is not beholden to any preacher, any Bible, any missionary and will not hold Himself beholden to such, for the eternal salvation of His people.

I am not arguing that you are denying knowledge and faith, but what I am arguing is that knowledge and faith are not saviours.

huh ? when did I say knowledge and faith are saviours ?

Oprah says "have faith". The question is not have faith, the question is faith in WHAT? in WHO? You are merely admitting to the existence of Christ and that knowledge and faith are somehow independent and equally salvific without the Saviour. That my friend is not the gospel of the Bible but Gnosticism.

you have totally misrepresented what I am saying, sir. point to me where I said that bolded, underlined, and colored quoted portion ?

 

[DrJamesAch]

where ? I need your answer. are they all damned to hell ? to perdition ? we are talking about eternal salvation, aren't we ? so if one is eternally saved because of one's knowledge and obedience, then one is eternally damned because one is ignorant of and/or disobedient to the gospel.



arguing for faith and knowledge without an object ?
lol.
are you sure you understood what I was saying ?
oh, well, maybe it's my fault, I didn't grow up in your language.
okay.
let me go at it again.
The eternal salvation of His people is God's purpose and He alone accomplished it. That salvation is a gift for which He set no prerequisites that the recipient must meet.
That salvation was something that He purposed in eternity past for the people whose names He foreknew and wrote in His book of life from the foundation of the world.
That eternal salvation is entirely passive for the elect sinner.
It was his/hers while he was yet dead in sin and trespasses, and unregenerate.
God is not beholden to any preacher, any Bible, any missionary and will not hold Himself beholden to such, for the eternal salvation of His people.




huh ? when did I say knowledge and faith are saviours ?





you have totally misrepresented what I am saying, sir. point to me where I said that bolded, underlined, and colored quoted portion ?

You have in your own words described Gnosticism, then Universalism, and double predestination going back and forth between the 3. I will expound more on this tomorrow as it is 11pm here and passed my bed time!

 

[Steadfast Fred]

To say, or even imply, that one can be saved without faith in Christ is to misrepresent the Truth