Will Catholics Be "Left Behind"?

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura in 2003:
Why would I be jealous of the whore of Babylon? I don't want to burn in the lake of fire.

Then you are acusing me of hell fire, all of us Catholics and that the whole of the Catholic Church?

You know what, Sola, it is this kind of statement that actually lead me to the Catholic Church! From the pulpit, in my former church, a Sunday did not go by, it seems, that something was not said against the Catholic Church.

I wondered why............

I investigated and and quickly came to the following conclusion:

Christ's church would be the most vilified, the most hated, and the most denied!

And in the nearly 20 years of Catholic apologetics, I have yet to hear the single Catholic declare such a condemnation, yes, even such a declaration, that others would be "burning in the lake of fire" because of the very denomination they belonged to!

I feel real sorry for you, Sola, as I wonder what your accounting will be before God when He seens your condemnation of others when it is He,
God Almighty, who is the only one who can see into the hearts of men.

I will pray for you, Mr. Sola...............

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Lord, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things that I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
enjoying one moment at a time;
accepting hardship as a pathway to peace;
taking, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it;
trusting that you will make all things right
if I surrender to Your will;
so that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with You forever in the next.
Amen.

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Don't color in angel wings to your church; your branch of the church deprived the laity during the Dark and Middle Ages. Priest chained the Bible to the pulpit because the regular Christian was too dumb to interpret the Word of God.

Oh hogwash!

Would it ever occur to you that the bible was chained to the pulpit so that it would not be STOLEN? I f they wanted to keep it from the laity (those who could read, of course) why would they not simply hide it completely from view? Or are you going to accuse the Catholic Church of keeping the laity in their illiteracy?

We received from your church a lot of wrong translations do to the church's proclivity toward the Latin rather than the Greek text.

And so did the the authors of the Authorized 1611 King James version! Of course, in all fairness, all factions used whatever text, Greek of Latin, that was available to them at the time...and the KJV was not a bad translation, actually, for it's time.

We too, have a canon that has eliminated some books of the Bible that you have, because our fathers of the faith had seen conflicting ideas that disagreed with the rest of our holy book, the Bible. That's why you end up with the alleged purgatory and we believe in the Judgment Seat of Christ, [II Corinthians 5:10 & Romans 14:10] which you and I will have to stand before, at a future time, before we enter Heaven.

Boy! I wonder what "fathers" you are referring to here? Luther? Zwigli, Calvin? Tell me, who are your "fathers"?

If it were not for the Reformation fathers like Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and Knox we would still be sitting in the shadows of relative spiritual darkness, trying to figure out how long our stay in purgatory might be. [/QB]

Oops! I forgot some! Do you know that I wrote the above before I even read you comment immediately above? Am I a mindreader? No, just too much time defending my Faith, that's all!

And for 1500 years, the Holy Church, the only one around, languished in error all that time? And we then see the "glorious truth" you list of men brought back to the Christian faith?

And Christ went back on His word in that "...the gates of hell" did indeed, "pravail against the church." (NOT!) derived from Matthew 16:18

Please give me a break!

But God bless you anyway!

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Bill -
As of now, I know of not particular teaching of the Catholic Church concerning this particular fragment of scripture...

Thanks Bill.

I am not saying I am objecting in any way to Carson and Ed doing a little freelance thinking - I am all for it even though I don't happen to agree with them (gasp! surprise!) on this point.</font>[/QUOTE]OK, I was wondering about your interest in all of this...

But I did not want to report this to someone else as "a recent teaching of the RCC" if in fact it is just a few individuals kicking an idea around.

Gotcha!

As for Matt 16 and "The Son of Man is going to come in the GLORY of His Father with His Angels and WILL THEN Recompense EVERY MAN according to his deeds" - it matches prettly close to the same idea in Rev 19 and 20 and in 2Thess 1 where He is also seen to be "dealing out retribution" as He comes "in flaming fire".

Are you speaking of Matt. 16:28 in your first sentence here?

Let me quote it again from my Catholic NAB:

"Amen,I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

I see nothing about "retribution" and "flaming fire" here and likewise, I see noting in history that matches this, even the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, while predicted, was not recorded as an actual event in any of the New Testament scripture.

I see nothing about "The Son of Man is going to come in the GLORY of His Father with His Angels and WILL THEN Recompense EVERY MAN according to his deeds" being mentioned here.

As for "The Son of man coming in His kingdom" vs 28 - recall the Luke 23 statement of the thief on the cross "Remember me WHEN you come into your Kingdom". Christ's reponse is direct and not a "trick resonpse" and it shows that entering with him as a resurrected saint into Paradise is connected with that coming into His Kingdom.

What "kingdom" do you think the thief was refering to, Bob? I and most Catholics see this as simply Jesus going back to the Father in heaven.

"Truly I say to you today you SHALL be with Me in Paradise".

I find it errie to see this quoted, often seeing it as denying the salvific power of baptism! But that is another story and another thread...

God bless,

PAX

Rome has spoken, case is closed.

Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Ray,

You wrote, "Priest chained the Bible to the pulpit because the regular Christian was too dumb to interpret the Word of God."

Ray, you continually insert the standard Anti-Catholic propaganda on this web board that has been shredded time and time again. Is there ever an end to this paper trash? What have you been reading, really? Where do you get this stuff from?

Here's Gary Hoge's explanation (a former Baptist), "It is actually true that Catholic churches used to keep the Bible under lock and key, and opponents of the Church love to cite this fact because on the surface it looks bad. However, when the facts are brought to light this practice actually shows exactly the opposite of what the Church’s opponents would like people to believe. The truth is, the churches kept their Bibles under lock and key to keep them from being stolen, and thus to make sure that they would be available for all to read. Anyone who has ever seen a phone book chained to a phone booth will understand precisely why the churches did this.

"In the days before the printing press, Bibles were extremely expensive. Each one was hand copied by scribes onto vellum (sheep skin), and it took about 250 sheep to make a single Bible, so the raw material alone was quite costly. The labor involved was also very expensive, not only because it took a long time to hand-copy an entire Bible, but because the scribes, being among the best educated individuals of that time period, were expensive to employ. Owning a Bible was thus well out of the reach of all but the wealthiest people. Even after the invention of the printing press the cost of a Bible was equal to a clerk’s wages for about three years! Each town might have only one Bible, and you can easily imagine what a valuable and tempting target it would be for thieves. So the churches kept their Bibles locked down, not to keep people from reading them, but to keep thieves from stealing them, and to make sure that if anyone did want to read them, they could do so."

You also wrote, "That's why you end up with the alleged purgatory and we believe in the Judgment Seat of Christ"

Purgatory and Christ's role as Judge are in no way in conflict with one another or mutually exclusive in any way. Well, I guess they would be if you misunderstood what the doctrine of Purgatory is, which you do misunderstand.

 

[Singer]

And for 1500 years, the Holy Church, the only one around, languished in
error all that time? And we then see the "glorious truth" you list of men
brought back to the Christian faith?

Hopeful thinking on theCatholic part at best. There were many Christians
who were not Catholic for l500 years....who do you suppose rebelled
against the monger popes. Who were the Catholics killing off if there weren't
other christians who threatened their monopoly?

Ray, you continually insert the standard Anti-Catholic propaganda on this
web board that has been shredded time and time again. Is there ever
an end to this paper trash? What have you been reading, really? Where
do you get this stuff from?

(Speaking of Catholics not being allowed to read their bible)
All I can do/say is what I've experienced and I've had more than 2 or 3 Catholics
say that they were not allowed to read their bible in the past and that it is becoming
less strict nowdays. Also know one Catholic man who claims that 4 of the 5 priests
that he was exposed to as a child were involved in all kinds of sexual sins including
one priest that literally manhandled him on a camping trip. I don't understand why
he's still a Catholic, but he IS vocal about the abuses and it has done him much harm
through life. He was shunned by his most recent presiding priest. The damage there is
that he could hold these abuses against God as he has learned from childhood that this
is the Only Church and God's Church. He has experienced the opposite.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Sola Scriptura,

I didn't want you to think you were the only one who believed what you do. Read these four scholars.

The Rev. Dr. Matthew Henry says in Volume VI page 1172 as to Revelation 17:5 that 'She is named from her infamous way and practice; not only a harlot, but a mother of harlots, breeding up harlots, and nursing and training them up to idolatry. On page 1173 he says the 'seven mountains' are the seven hills on which Rome stands.' {Fleming H. Revell Company}.

Rev. Dr. Charles C. Ryrie in his "Basic Theology' page 537 says, 'During the first part of the Great Tribulation days, organized, ecumenical religion will have its heyday. The apostate religious system is described in Revelation 17 under the label "Mystery, Babylon" {KJV} It will be worldwide (vs. 15), be unfaithful to the truth and to the Lord (the term "harlot" appears in vs. 1,5, 15-16), have extensive political clout (vs. 12-13), have a "cup full of abominations," that is, be inwardly corrupt while outwardly glorious and splendid (vs. 4), and will persecute the saints of the Great Tribulation days (vs. 6)

The groundwork for such a system will apparently have to be laid before the Tribulation begins, that is, during the closing years of the Church Age. The preparation will likely include both organizational moves toward unity in Christendom as well as the ascendancy of doctrines to which diverse groups can give support. {Moody Press} Dr. Ryrie is a professor at Dallas Seminary with a Ph.D. from the University of Edinburgh and a Th.D. from Dallas Seminary.

Rev. Dr. C. I. Scofield speaks about Revelation 17 this way. 'Ecclesiastical Babylon, is apostate Christendom, headed up under the Papacy; and political Babylon, is the Beast's confederated empire, the last form of Gentile world-dominion. Ecclesiastical Babylon is 'the great whore' (Rev. 17:1), and is destroyed by political Babylon (Rev. 17:15-18), so the beast may be the alone object of worship {meaning the anti-christ/political leader} (II Thess. 2:3,4; Rev. 13:15). The power of political Babylon {the last world empire under the leadership of the Antichrist} will be destroyed by the return of the Lord in glory. . . . The ecclesiastical center, viz. Is Rome.'
{Oxford University Press} "Scofield Reference New Testament And Psalms"

The Rev. Dr. A.T. Robertson, the noteworthy Greek scholar and former professor of New Testament interpretation at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary offers these thoughts. 'The harlot city (Rome) sits astride this beast with seven heads and ten horns (Roman world power). . . . Rome was known as the city on seven hills (Vergil, Horace, Ovid, Cicero, etc.). Quotes come from his "Word Pictures In The New Testament, Vol. VI pages 429 & 432.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Carson Weber,

I read that years ago and would not know how to document what I read. It is possible that the person writing about the Bible being chained to the pulpit mega, mega years ago might have been biased or a bigot.

Regards,

Ray

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

I investigated and and quickly came to the following conclusion:

Christ's church would be the most vilified, the most hated, and the most denied! (Putnam)

As far as being the most denied and hated: the RCC isn't. It's one of the biggest churches in the world, if not THE biggest. The church of Christ is the most denied - opposed by Protestants because it teaches the necessesity of baptism to salvation - opposed by Catholics because it teaches that faith in the operation of God (Col 2:12) is necessary for valid baptism. The simplicity of the gospel is hated, but the pomp of Catholicism is loved.

But, if you want a list of what the RCC is the MOST of, here it is:

most idolatrous
most scandalous
most persecuting
most raping
most child molesting
most scripture-twisting

 

[neal4christ]

Both groups need to grow up and find a real church.

Sola, if that church included people who act like you do and say the things you do, I want no part of it. Your attitude is very un-Christlike. You do not show the fruit of the Spirit found in Galatians 5:22-23. If your church is the 'true' church, you better start changing the way you act if you really want others to become a part of it.

Neal

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Sola,

You wrote, "But, if you want a list of what the RCC is the MOST of, here it is"

Thank you for your opinion. It's always good to know what others think.

Would you mind giving me your opinion (in two sentences or more) of the following individuals?

St. Maximillian Kolbe
St. Francis of Assisi
St. Therese of Lisieux
St. Martin de Porres

These individuals are the Catholic Church (the church is the communion of saints), and they are products of the same Catholic Church.

I'm waiting for your opinions, brother.

[ June 17, 2003, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

Because obviously, Carson, listing the names of some so-called "saints" makes the RCC less idolatrous. Are these the "saints" whose idols you just got done kissing and praying to?

Neal, I gurantee you that if Christ were walking on this earth now He'd be overturning some tables in the Baptist and Catholic "churches." All the idolatry of the RCC is bad, but the denial of the very entrance to the kingdom by the Baptists is even worse! Christ wouldn't be saying "Oh, isn't this wonderful" - He'd be saying why have you preached fiercly against the entrance to my kingdom? Why have you told millions who are on their way to hell that they are saved? Brood of vipers isn't even a bad enough term to use. The religious condition of this generation far exceeds that of the Pharisees in opposition to God's word. They didn't deny circumcision - they didn't deny the very entrance to the covenant of that time, but this one does. The Baptists and the Catholics are the biggest obstacles to people getting saved that have ever existed, and hopefully that ever will exist.

[ June 17, 2003, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

 

[Kathryn]

But, if you want a list of what the RCC is the MOST of, here it is:

most idolatrous
most scandalous
most persecuting
most raping
most child molesting
most scripture-twisting

Cardinal Newman once said, “For, first of all, our Saviour was called a deceiver, a man gluttonous and a wine-bibber, a blasphemer, a Samaritan, a demoniac. He was crucified, and that between thieves; has "the offence of the cross" ceased? are we better than He? But further, it is a very impressive and touching fact, that He Himself has told us that His Church should have to bear the same reproach with Him:—"If they have called the Master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of the household?"

Atheists and humanists all over the world hate the Church for our stand on homosexuality, birth control, and abortion. Other anti-Catholics hate the Church for saying Jesus Christ gave the Church His authority and the keys of the kingdom. Goes with the territory.


God Bless

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

When Christ was called a deciever, He wasn't! When the RCC is called idolatrous, it is! When it's said that it's priest molest children, they do! There is NO parallel here! Quit patting yourself on the back for being part of the whore and come out of her like God said in the Apocalypse!

 

[Kathryn]

Sola:

When Christ was called a deciever, He wasn't! When the RCC is called idolatrous, it is! When it's said that it's priest molest children, they do! There is NO parallel here! Quit patting yourself on the back for being part of the whore and come out of her like God said in the Apocalypse!

Now on the next day, the day after the preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together with Pilate, and said, "Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I am to rise again.' "Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day, otherwise His disciples may come and steal Him away and say to the people, 'He has risen from the dead,' and the last deception will be worse than the first." Matthew 27:62-64

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

Atheists and humanists all over the world hate the Church for our stand on homosexuality, birth control, and abortion.

Not my reason.

It's baptism is invalid; it's idolatrous; it wiggles around the truth; it's clergy don't meet Scriptrual qualifications; it hold the doctrines of demons that are spoken of in 1 Timothy 4; it denies Mt 23:9; it persecuted people just as Rev 17 said; transubstantiation is an abomination according to Acts 15:20; the list is endless

 

[BobRyan]

Bill
I wondered why............

I investigated and and quickly came to the following conclusion:

Christ's church would be the most vilified, the most hated, and the most denied!

Then you should have become a Jew.

All Christians readily agree that they WERE the ONE TRUE CHURCH started by God at Sinai.

And as for your qualifiers above - they fit that bill today - MORE than they did in the days of Christ. They have been more maligned and ill-treated than any.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said Also, is your belief church doctrine or your interpretation?

Carson

To the best of my knowledge, the Church doesn't have an official "interpretation" of these passages. However, it is Church doctrine that Jesus has yet to come finally in his Second Coming, which of course, I believe. I don't believe that Jesus came physically, that we've experienced the rapture, that we've all been physically resurrected, and that the End of the World has come. That's ridiculous, of course. If I did believe that, we wouldn't be sitting here, would we?

Well then you have not lost it completely!

I applaud your holding to that point that the 2nd coming has NOT happened.

Would you also agree that "THE event" to which the entire NT text points (John 14:1-4, Rom 8:18-25) has NOT happened?


Romans 8:
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

Carson
This isn't my interpretation. It's one that I've learned in my graduate program that I find to suit the text (i.e., it doesn't make Jesus out to be a liar);

So then "EVERY MAN" was "PAID" according to his deeds - way back in 70AD?? EVERY MAN - EVERYONE of MANKIND. OF ALL mankind that was alive at that time and then of all mankind that has every lived following that -- (you know as the normal view of that text has admitted).


Matt 16:
27 ""For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.


Can't we just "accept" that "SOME standing there" DID see Christ coming in His kingdom (2Peter3 and John in the book of Rev)??

Can't we just "accept" that in seeing Christ glorified in the VERY next chapter - Matt 17 - THREE disciples DID see a type of the 2nd coming?

Matt 16.
28 ""Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

Or must we suppose that "EVERY MAN is "paid according to his deeds" via a non-return, non-physcial non-return, non-saints gathered non-return, non-end non-return of Christ?

(Recall that the term 2nd-coming is not used by Christ or any of the apostles - only the RETURN of Christ and "when the Son of man comes will He find faith on the earth?" ).

Carson
Jesus has yet to come finally in his Second Coming,

That is your "big clue" that you are far afield.

"Comes finally in His Second coming" as if there are "multiple comings before the SECOND one" as if there are "multple second comings and the last few are the final ones". Scripture speaks of only one - the RETURN of Christ. "I will COME AGAIN and receive you unto Myself". The return of Christ - is only spoken of as one single event not as a "subsequent return AFTER the return".

Your "final second" language - should be giving you huge pause for reflection.

Carson
it's quite challenging, incredibly interesting, and it gives better explanatory power to immanent eschatology by taking into account the fact that Jesus says "this generation [genea] will not pass away until all these things have taken place".

Christ's words in Matt 24 apply to "Everty tribe on earth" they are in direct reference to a global catastrophic event JUST "AS in the Days of Noah" as Matt 24 states.

Matt 24 is explicit that anyone claiming that "it happened out in the desert" is making a false claim - because it is world wide global and catastrophic.

Carson
Catholics have this sort of interpretive freedom; you nor anyone else should be surprised at the fact that the Church empowers us to read the Bible safely with the freedom to really dig deep into Scripture, mining its riches.

No complaint here. I am happy to see Catholics getting any freedom they can when it comes to direct study of the Word of God

In Christ,

Bob

 

[neal4christ]

I gurantee you that if Christ were walking on this earth now He'd be overturning some tables in the Baptist and Catholic "churches."

And I would guarantee that He would not be pleased with your attitude.

but the denial of the very entrance to the kingdom by the Baptists is even worse!

What are you talking about?

He'd be saying why have you preached fiercly against the entrance to my kingdom?

Never heard that message before.

Why have you told millions who are on their way to hell that they are saved?

Umm....you must have me confused with someone else. I don't even think I have talked to a million people. And I don't tell people that are on their way to hell that they are saved.

The Baptists and the Catholics are the biggest obstacles to people getting saved that have ever existed, and hopefully that ever will exist.

Don't worry....if you church is the one 'true' church your attitude is now the biggest obstacle. Please read Galatians 5:22-23 and then read your posts. You will see that you fall short in many areas of the fruit of the Spirit. Just because you think you have the truth doesn't mean you can act as rude as you want.

Neal

 

[WPutnam]

Neal said:

Don't worry....if you church is the one 'true' church your attitude is now the biggest obstacle. Please read Galatians 5:22-23 and then read your posts. You will see that you fall short in many areas of the fruit of the Spirit. Just because you think you have the truth doesn't mean you can act as rude as you want.

You know, reading over this thread beyond what I have already posted reminds me of a wonderful movie I just saw.

The title of it is JOSHUA.

Both Protestants and Catholics will enjoy it, as I think it puts it finger on exactly what Christ would do if he were to come back to earth, quietly, and see what is going on...

Get it!

You will cry when you see it! And I cried like a baby viewing it!

God bless,

PAX


Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

[servant4him]

Though I disagree with a lot that Catholics believe, they still believe in God and Jesus, so they are still on their way to Heaven, if they intently believe. I am a Lutheran myself, but I don't think that Catholics are going to Hell for their beliefs. It outrageous that anyone would say that, and they seriously need an attitude change. In my opinion anyone who believes in Jesus will go to Heaven.
I personally do not believe in the Rapture, I think that when Jesus will come there he will take those who he takes to Heaven with him and those who go to Hell. The Rapture makes no sense and sounds made up from man's words. Catholics are strong believers in God, and that matters. They have faith in Jesus, our savior, so they have a one way ticket into Heaven. This is what I believe, I don't know about Catholics.
I believe that faith is not earned, that it is a gift given to us in Baptism by the Holy Spirit.
How could we earn our way into Heaven. That would make us as good as God. We aren't as good as God, we never will be. We are all sinners. I am the worst sinner that ever lived, we all are. As long as we repent and have faith in Jesus, no one gets left behind.