Will Catholics Be "Left Behind"?

[Ray Berrian]

Bob Ryan,

I'm glad to see that you basicly agree with my post and I think we are saying the same thing about Rev. 20. Let me see if I can make my view clear.

The I Thess. 4 and the resurrection chapter of the Bible which is I Cor. 15 are one in the same thing, the first resurrection of all the just/saved souls. As Dr. Chafer says, those who die during the Great Tribulation are considered also to be among those under the umbrella of the first resurrection. God would surely not leave them out of this experience. In Rev. 20 John admits seeing those beheaded appear before God.

Rev. 20:5a to me is a most vital but brief explanation of the resurrection of the unjust/lost souls after the Millennium.

Then 5b comes in speaking about the first resurrection and blessed and 'holy' {referring to the saved souls of all eras of time} who death and hell and the Lake of Fire will never destroy, because they saved ones will ever be with the Lord.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Ray gets the subject back on topic --

Incidentally, all people who know and love Jesus will be 'caught up' to meet the Lord in the air. [I Thessalonians 4:17] whether Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, or Messianic Christian or Christians from any other denomination. Just because people do not have their theology correct does not mean they will not rise to be with Christ in the clouds.

Excellent point Ray!

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]I must agree with Bob on this one Ray, you are absolutely correct!

It is a sad thing indeed to encounter the mindset of people who actually have assumed that their church has it 'all figured out' and NEENER NEENER on all you fools! Sad indeed.

It is good to see that there are others out there who have fully grasped the concept of a GLOBAL Church of God, that is in the heart of every believer!

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

Originally posted by BobRyan:
[qb]

Ray gets the subject back on topic --

Incidentally, all people who know and love Jesus will be 'caught up' to meet the Lord in the air. [I Thessalonians 4:17]

I believe this also, the operative words being know and love Jesus. If we cannot agree on who Jesus is, then how will we be 'caught up' to meet him in the air? Who is the we? And who is the Him? First we must agree on who Jesus is.
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Ahhhh.....
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Ahhhh.....
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Very good verses. I love each one of them. So does that mean that you believe that Jesus Christ is the one and only Most High God?
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

Ray --
I'm glad to see that you basicly agree with my post and I think we are saying the same thing about Rev. 20. Let me see if I can make my view clear.

The I Thess. 4 and the resurrection chapter of the Bible which is I Cor. 15 are one in the same thing, the first resurrection of all the just/saved souls. As Dr. Chafer says, those who die during the Great Tribulation are considered also to be among those under the umbrella of the first resurrection. God would surely not leave them out of this experience. In Rev. 20 John admits seeing those beheaded appear before God.

Yes good point. 1Cor 15, 1Thess 4 and Rev 20:4-5, Romans 8:19-25, John 14:1-4, 1 Peter 1:13, Phil 3:20 etc - ALL show the NT believer to be focused on one event - the same event. The return of Christ at which we find the resurrection of the saints and the redemption of the body.

It is amazing how they describe themselves as "Groaning" and "looking eagerly" for that single event. As Peter says "Fix your hope COMPLETELY on the gract that is to be brought to you at the Revelation of Jesus Christ".

Paul says He is in Heaven from which we eagerly wait for His return. And in that one singular event - we also find the resurrection of the "Dead in Christ" as Paul says.

So when John describes this as the "first resurrection" and notes that the 2nd resurrection has no power over the saints "the dead in Christ" raised at the first resurrection - we can be sure he is speaking of the urgent desire and focus of the NT church that had been told "Comfort one another with these words" 1Thess 4.

All the "Groaning" that we see in Romans 8 - is with respect to that singular focus of the church.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I believe this also, the operative words being know and love Jesus. If we cannot agree on who Jesus is, then how will we be 'caught up' to meet him in the air? Who is the we? And who is the Him? First we must agree on who Jesus is.

For 4000 years mankind never heard the name "Jesus".

Many followed Christ during His life - and then died before "finding out the secret" that the disciples did not learn until the days after Christ's resurrection.

The "Dead in Christ" of 1Thess 4 include ALL the saints in ALL ages - EVEN those listed in Hebrews 11.

"Perfection of story" is not a basis for acceptance with God.

God "Convicts The World" of Sin and righteousness and judgment.

So that means that in heaven there will be some Catholics that are just then learning that Mary is not the queen of the universe.

There will be some OT saints learning about "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit".

There will be some OT saints learning the name "Jesus" and what it means to mankind.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK --
God is not the God of the dead; but of the living." He is not he God of the spiritually dead, but rather the spiritually alive. It was Abraham that was and is alive spiritually as opposed to Abimilech or Pharaoh that were dead spiritually.

DHK-you are so defensive you refuse to see what EVEN the Sadducees could see in Christ's argument of Matt 22. That should tell you something.

You yourself "claim" that you think the Sadducees THINK Abraham is ALIVE and well while dead but they don't think that he will be resurrected.

So "in your view" how does Christ "make the iron clad case for the resurrection" in Matt 22 to a group that "believes as you claim above"?

The fact is "it ONLY works ONE way" if you are going to argue FOR the iron clad case of the resurrection.

The idea you seek to insert into the doctrines of the Sadducees (which all scholars agree they DID NOT hold to a spirit active in death) - can not work IN the argument and is not supported as a belief that the Sadducees ever had.

DHK said --
Abrahahm's spirit lived on in Paradise as witnessed by Lazarus and the rich man. Pharaoh's spirit lived and continues to live on

Excellent speculation about man's spirit - notice that Luke tells us in Acts 23 that the Sadducees did not BELIEVE that man has a spirit that is active after death.

Try using exegesis IN Matt 22 to make your case. Show how Christ's argument for the resurrection is SO compelling that EVEN the Pharisees observe that it totally shut the Sadducees down.

Show how it works USING what the Bible TELLS us the Sadducees believed. (NO spirit) Acts 23.8.

DHK --
Abraham will be resurrurected in the resurrection of the just.

True - but why would the Sadducees be "Forced" to that inclusion in the debate? What is the "logic" that leads them to the iron clad conclusion that the ONLY way God could say to Moses " I AM the God of Abraham" is for there to be a FUTURE resurrection of Abraham?

You simply turn a blind eye to the argument IN the text so far - why?

Why no exegesis?

DHK -
The Saduccess did not believe in the spirit or the resurrection.

Yes - correct - yes! A brief moment of clarity!! Now work with that - SHOW how your view works FOR THEM in thier mindset HOW is Christ locking them into the innescapable conclusion that the Resurrection is the ONLY way to solve the puzzle.

Show it.

I have shown it. Now it is your turn to come up with a workable alternative that will accomodate your speculation on what happens in death.

DHK
Jesus made a case for them both. There is a spirit that lives on. There is a body that will be resurrceted.

Again - you turn a blind eye to the "debate" in Matt 22.

How can you engage in debate so frequently and then "pretend" you don't understand the very "Basics" in a debate with someone that "doesn't agree with you"??

This is Amazing!! DHK. How can you keep pretending not to "get it"?

Imagine you and 3 Angels mom debating a point where she actually did NOT agree with you. Just "try to imagine that for a minute".

Imagine that the subject was "the Trinity". Just try to imagine it - be objective just for a second here.

Imagine that your "compelling proof" is in the form "Kelly there is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit".

THEN imagine that I or someone else that had been in debate with Kelly on the subject of the Trinity saw YOUR argument above and said "WOW! That is amazing. Kelly had NO way out of that. It was iron clad. Innescapable. Compelling."

That would be a Joke!! There is nothing "Compelling" in it - it would be total nonesense to someone that did not already agree with you. A useless debate tactic.

But in Matt 22 - Christ is COMPELLING - His argument is brilliant it leaves the Sadducees with NTHER OPTION using their OWN doctrines - they were forced to conclude the Resurrection as they only "SOLUTION" to the problem.

But when you insert your own bias into the text - you leave the Sadducees with NO PROBLEM to solve.

You claim that they ALREADY think Abraham is alive in spirit EVEN though God's Word says they did not believe in a spirit AT ALL.

Basically you have offerred nothing but the tactic of "repeating your beliefs" in Matt22. You have completely avoided SHOWING IN the text - a debate position used by Christ to compell His opponents. EVEN the Pharisees recognized the brilliance of Christ's argument against their old opponents. They THEMSELVES had been trying to convince the Sadducees on this point but could not come up with the iron clad argument.

Christ comes up with it - brilliantly - you miss the entire discussion??!! Just because it does not serve your POV - you must pretend to miss what EVEN the Sadducees "got" (as much as it hurt THEIR doctrinal preferences).

Amazing! Just amazing!!

How can anyone then look back on the stubborn jews and claim that we are any better today?!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[3AngelsMom]

Lookey there Bob, I'm an object lesson!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
For 4000 years mankind never heard the name "Jesus".

Many followed Christ during His life - and then died before "finding out the secret" that the disciples did not learn until the days after Christ's resurrection.

There is a such thing as progressive revelation. The more light we have; the more we are held accountable for. The Ninehvites repented at the preaching of Jonah, which basically was a belief in Jehovah as the true God; not necessarily the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The message of the gospel today must of necessity include the deity of Christ. Who is the Christ that you are believing. The Christ of the J.W.'s The Christ of Benny Hinn, The Christ of the New Age gurus, The Christ of the Mormons, Perahps the Christ of the Muslims or even the Hindus. Who is Jesus Christ? Even Jesus Christ asked that question of his disciples. "Who do men say that I am?"

The "Dead in Christ" of 1Thess 4 include ALL the saints in ALL ages - EVEN those listed in Hebrews 11.

I have no argument here. The dead in Christ all those that are saved and have died before the coming of Christ--both in the Old and New Testament.

"Perfection of story" is not a basis for acceptance with God.

True enough. No man will ever have a perfect theology, will ever know all there is to know, before he gets to heaven. But there are certain essentials to the gospel that must be believed.

God "Convicts The World" of Sin and righteousness and judgment.

How true that is.

So that means that in heaven there will be some Catholics that are just then learning that Mary is not the queen of the universe.

That of course is a very difficult question to answer. If "ALL" Catholics believe, as the Catholic Church teaches, that baptism is a part of their salvation, and that works is necessary for salvation, then "NO" Catholic will enter into Heaven. Note the "If", making that a hypothetical statement, and yet one that relates directly to their religion.

There will be some OT saints learning about "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit".

That is true.

There will be some OT saints learning the name "Jesus" and what it means to mankind.

I have no argument there either.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Bob,
Let me answer your most recent post by answering this one, as it contains a more detailed account of the Scriptures in question, and yet will answer the same questions.

Matt 22:
23 On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him,

Here we have hostile interviewer that does not believe in the doctrine of the resurrection - this is one of the few times in scripture where Christ debates a point directly without side-stepping the debate in order to foil the bad guys. First the bad boys setup the question in a way that they suppose will "silence Jesus" with an unanswerable dilemma.
Like all good debaters - they start of assuming Christ's position - that there IS a resurrection of the dead. Their objective is to show that using his own view - the problem is not solvable and so He is in error.

So far, so good.

24 asking, ""Teacher, Moses said, " IF A MAN DIES HAVING NO CHILDREN, HIS BROTHER AS NEXT OF KIN SHALL MARRY HIS WIFE, AND RAISE UP CHILDREN FOR HIS BROTHER.'
25 ""Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother;
26 so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh.
27 ""Last of all, the woman died.
28 ""In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.''
29 But Jesus answered and said to them, ""You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.

In this one case Christ puts them off by getting to the heart of their real problem - not knowing the scriptures OR the Power of God.

30 ""For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Step one - He solves their riddle and explains that the only reason it was a riddle to them - is that they did not know the Bible as well as they thought they did. His solution is IN the details regarding resurrected saints - not dead ones.

The context is the resurrection; this much is true. However at this juncture it seems that you are the one that is drawing a dichotomy between living and dead saints. Nothing has been said about any such thing, or “resurrected saints and dead ones.” All of the saints that Jesus referred to were alive. None of them were dead. That is why Christ could say that He was the God of the living: the God of Abraham, etc. He was still Abraham’s God, even though Abraham’s body was dead, Abraham was alive, for his spirit was alive in Paradise. This was one of his devastating arguments against the Saduccees, in that not only did He prove the existence of the Resurrection, but also the existence of life after death—the spirit lives on, whether in Hell or in Heaven. The Resurrection Abraham (as well as the rest of us) we still wait for.

Step two Christ choose to debate head-on. He returns the favor - showing that using THEIR one view – using the Truth that they Still have - they should know that the resurrection is a sound Biblical doctrine. So like all good debaters - he begins by telling them what he is going to prove and then starts off with common ground.

And so He does.

31 ""But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God:
32 " I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'?

They can hardly deny this point. God makes this statement to Moses in the land of Midian long after Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have died - but BEFORE they are resurrected - Exodus 3:6.

Yes, a proof of the existence of the eternal spirit of man. Even before they are resurrected, they live.

They would rather die than deny this premise to Christ's "proof". But this is the one-two punch for proving the resurrection and here comes the other shoe - dropping.

The “one” of the “one-two” punch, is that Christ has just demonstrated that their spirits are alive and their bodies, though now dead, await the resurrection.

32 He is not the God of the dead but of the living.''

Here again - they would rather die than deny this second part of Christ's proof. As Luke tells us they deny there is a spirit, they deny Angels exist they deny that there is such a thing as the resurrection. (Acts 23:8) The very HEART of their argument is that NO relationships – NO life beyond this one is possible since it would be too complicated to work out the various complexities carried forward from THIS life.

Yes indeed. Jesus had gotten to the very heart of the matter.

And so Christ (the ultimate debater) presents them with a dilemma whose only solution is "the Resurrection". He leaves them with NO escape since by their OWN reasoning God is NOT the God of the Dead. Once Abraham died – God was NOT the God of Abraham any longer – EXCEPT by virtue of the fact of a future resurrection which was the ONLY solution they had for the puzzle. And indeed Christ told them at the start that He would show them a problem for which they HAD to conclude “the resurrection” to solve it.

But "both" parts of his premise must be true to conclude that the "only solution" is the resurrection. Part-A that God is NOT the God of the Dead and Part-B that God DID say He was the God of Abraham when speaking to Moses long AFTER Abraham died.

So what did Christ prove:
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. The dead are the unsaved; the living are the saved. Abraham still lives though his body is dead. This is what Christ was teaching by stating that God is not the God of the dead. Abraham wasn’t dead. He is always the God of the living. Someday Abraham’s body would be resurrected as will every person’s body be resurrected. But the unsaved, though they be resurrected, will still be dead. “And the dead will stand before God.”

Consider:
Eph.2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
--Paul, writing to the Ephesians, tells them that they were once dead, but now are they alive. God is not the God of the dead, but rather of those that are alive in Christ; those that have been born again. He said to one who would have followed him: “Let the dead bury the dead; but come thou and follow me.” God is not the God of the dead but of the living.
When one trusts Christ as Saviour he is no longer dead to sin, but alive in Christ—for God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
It is appointed unto man once to die but after this the judgement—Heaven or Hell.
The spirit lives on. It is eternal. It will live on in death or in life—in eternal death, or in eternal life: in eternal separation from God (death), or in eternal presence of God (life). Which will it be?
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

DHK - you have argued that the Sadducees had NO problem for which the resurrection was the SOLUTION.

You have argued that they already believed that Abraham was worshipping God in death and that God was ALREADY the God of Abraham - the living Abraham when speaking to Moses WITHOUT needing a future resurrection to MAKE IT SO.

You have denied the very essence of the argument FOR the resurrection and have sought to PROVE that Abraham was ALIVE while God was speaking to Moses INSTEAD of proving that Abraham MUST be resurrected to make God's statement to Moses TRUE.

You have argued that the SADDUCEES ALREADY believed this and that NO CHANGE at all was needed in their doctrine to admit to Christ's argument.

Your entire approach here has been to totally ignore what BOTH the Pharisees AND the Sadducees saw as a devastating - brilliant proof of the resurrection.

WOW!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
DHK - you have argued that the Sadducees had NO problem for which the resurrection was the SOLUTION.

You have argued that they already believed that Abraham was worshipping God in death and that God was ALREADY the God of Abraham - the living Abraham when speaking to Moses WITHOUT needing a future resurrection to MAKE IT SO.

You have denied the very essence of the argument FOR the resurrection and have sought to PROVE that Abraham was ALIVE while God was speaking to Moses INSTEAD of proving that Abraham MUST be resurrected to make God's statement to Moses TRUE.

You have argued that the SADDUCEES ALREADY believed this and that NO CHANGE at all was needed in their doctrine to admit to Christ's argument.

Your entire approach here has been to totally ignore what BOTH the Pharisees AND the Sadducees saw as a devastating - brilliant proof of the resurrection.

WOW!

In Christ,

Bob

No Bob, I have said nothing about the Sadduccees beliefs. If I remember correctly you were the one that delineated the Saducees belief very succinctly: they did not believe in the resurrection, the spirit, or angels. Here is the main argument:

31 ""But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God:
32 " I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

The most imprtant part is "I am the God of Abraham...God is the God of the living."

The verbs "AM and IS are present tense. They don't say that God was the God of Abraham. Nor do they say that God will be the God of Abraham. Jesus said "I am the God of Abraham, indicating that God at that very time in history was the God of Abraham, even though he was dead. His body was dead, awaiting the resurrection. His spirit was alive in Paradise. With that one statement Jesus demonstrated to the Saducees that their unbelief in both the spirit, and the resurrection was wrong. With that one statement it proves that your belief in soul sleep has been devastated. Abraham lives in spite of the fact that the resurrection has not taken place. There is no soul sleep. The spirit lives. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses are alive. God is the God of the living not the dead. Your argument for soul sleep has been defeated by the very Scripture that you have brought forth.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

DHK
The verbs "AM and IS are present tense. They don't say that God was the God of Abraham. Nor do they say that God will be the God of Abraham. Jesus said "I am the God of Abraham, indicating that God at that very time in history was the God of Abraham, even though he was dead. His body was dead, awaiting the resurrection. His spirit was alive in Paradise. With that one statement Jesus demonstrated to the Saducees that their unbelief in both the spirit, and the resurrection was wrong.

Unfortunately - you have failed again to address HOW the argument of Christ COULD POSSIBLY prove the resurrection ONCE you "SOLVE" the problem by getting Abraham to be ALIVE at the time God is speaking to Moses.

Your dodge there is "obvious".

I have "SHOWN" that WITHOUT the view of the spirit that you have - the ONLY solution for Christ's "puzzle" was the FUTURE resurrection.

You have not "SHOWN" the resurrection to "solve" anything in that puzzle which you claim is ALREADY solved WITHOUT the resurrection.

Consider - NO resurrecion - BUT Abraham IS ALIVE - his immortal soul is in relationship with God - God IS the God of Abraham WITHOUT the resurrection according to you. Once you make that case - there is NOTHING left in Christ's argument to "be Solved" by the resurrection.

So once again - you refuse to see the devastating "proof" that even the Sadducees could see.

Of course - I don't mean to pick on you for that - since I know full well that everybody has to "pretend" not to get the point handed to the Sadducees, not just you.

I am holding your feet to the fire in this case because I think you can take it - and might even see what the Sadducees AND Pharisees saw as "The ONLY solution" to the puzzle they had been given.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

He returns the favor - showing that using THEIR one view – using the Truth that they Still have - they should know that the resurrection is a sound Biblical doctrine.

So like all good debaters -He begins by telling them what he is going to prove (That the future resurrection is a fact of scripture) and then starts off with common ground.

31 ""But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God:
32 " I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'?

Here He is not arguing that they “need to finally accept” this statement in Exodus 3:6. They already accept it. He is simply pointing out truth in THEIR OWN fully accepted set of beliefs. In this case it is a statement that God makes to Moses in the land of Midian long After Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have died - but BEFORE they are resurrected - Exodus 3:6.

This point is not debated or challenged by the Sadducees – they already fully accept it – and they don’t ask for the authority Christ to get them to accept the OT. He is working with what they already fully accept.


32 He is not the God of the dead but of the living.''

Here again – Christ is not asking for this hostile group to “trust Him and believe Him”. Rather He knows they Already think of the dead in this way. They Already consider that God is NOT the God of the dead. In fact that they go beyond that – they argue ALSO that “there is no resurrection and no spirit” (Acts 23:8).

So here is the SECOND point of Christ’s case – a point that they fully accept and in fact that they would “insist” upon. He points out that God is NOT the God of dead people – and YET God stated to Moses – that He was the God of Abraham.

In their own argument used against Christ - The very HEART of their argument is that NO relationships – NO life beyond this one is possible since it would be too complicated to work out the various complexities carried forward from THIS life. God is indeed “Not the God of the dead” in their view – the dead have “no relationships” not with married spouses and not with God.

The obvious problem “To be solved” is that Abraham is dead when God spoke to Moses saying “I AM the God of Abraham” and as already “agreed” God “is NOT the God of the dead”!!.

At this point Christ’s argument for the iron clad case of the Resurrection ENDS!!! “How unexpected”!say many Christians today. “How“incomplete”! they argue.

You see – many Christians today do not see what the Sadducees AND the Pharisees saw in this devastating debate with the Sadducees that PROVED beyond all doubt that the resurrection is the ONLY possible solution to the problem Christ has identified. For modern Christians there is “another solution” and this is “Abraham has an immortal soul that IS worshipping God while dead” – in their view God IS the God of Abraham – HE IS the God of those who have died –For though the body is dead – Abraham THE PERSON is fully alive in heaven and God IS the God of Abraham – at the time God makes this statement to Moses. NO resurrection NEEDED – in the view of many of today’s Christians the problem is entirely ”solvable” without the resurrection.

However to the Sadducees and Pharisees the point was abundantly clear, Christ (the ultimate debater) presents them with a dilemma whose only solution is "the Resurrection". He leaves them with NO escape since by their OWN reasoning God is NOT the God of the Dead. God was claiming to be the God of “Abraham” the “person” not just “Abraham the dead body” and God is NOT the God of “Dead Persons”. Once Abraham (the “person” not merely Abraham “the body) died – God was NOT the God of Abraham (the person) any longer if there is NO resurrection. Only by virtue of the fact of a future resurrection could these two statements be true.

They already accepted that God called Abraham the father of many nations while as yet he had no children. They accepted that God counted future events as though they were already a fact. So now Christ argues the SAME future view for the resurrection – showing that BECAUSE of the resurrection (and ONLY because of that) God could still claim to be the God of Abraham EVEN when speaking to Moses – long after Abraham died. Christ COMBINES the two key points that they already agree to – and makes the devastating debate point FOR the resurrection. (Which is the nature of an effective debate point). Christ’s argument was devastating to them. Though they would love “not to see the point” they could not pretend not to get it.

And indeed Christ told them at the start that He would show them a problem for which the future resurrection that He taught was the ONLY solution.

But "both" parts of his premise must be true to conclude that the "only solution" is the resurrection. Part-A that God is NOT the God of the Dead and Part-B that God DID say He was the God of Abraham when speaking to Moses long AFTER Abraham died.

33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together.

Now this is really interesting because it shows that the proof was obvious to the entire crowd. Even the Pharisees could see that Christ had "silenced" the Sadducees by this devastating proof. Christ's argument is brilliant - but it only works if you believe both parts of His premise AND if you accept that the ONLY way for BOTH statements to be true is for there to be a Future Resurrection.

Sadly, many Christians today argue that they have “another solution” for BOTH of those statements to be true – and it does NOT need the resurrection to “make them true”.

The Jews – of Christ day – were not so blind to this point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Ahhhh.....
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Very good verses. I love each one of them. So does that mean that you believe that Jesus Christ is the one and only Most High God?
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]I believe what those verses say.

1. Yeshua is the Christ
2. Yeshua is the Son of God
3. Yeshua is the Son of Man
4. Yeshua has power over all flesh
5. Yeshua did nothing of Himself
6. Yeshua spoke the things His Father taught Him
7. Yahweh sent Yeshua
8. Yahweh did not leave Yeshua alone
9. Yeshua always did the things that pleased Yahweh
10. Eternal life is KNOWING the ONE TRUE GOD, Yahweh and HIS SON Yeshua that HE sent
11. If I continue in His Word, I am His disciple INDEED
12. I know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH has set me free

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
I believe what those verses say.

1. Yeshua is the Christ
2. Yeshua is the Son of God
3. Yeshua is the Son of Man
4. Yeshua has power over all flesh
5. Yeshua did nothing of Himself
6. Yeshua spoke the things His Father taught Him
7. Yahweh sent Yeshua
8. Yahweh did not leave Yeshua alone
9. Yeshua always did the things that pleased Yahweh
10. Eternal life is KNOWING the ONE TRUE GOD, Yahweh and HIS SON Yeshua that HE sent
11. If I continue in His Word, I am His disciple INDEED
12. I know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH has set me free

God Bless,
Kelly

These also are very good statements and verses. But not one of them give a straight forward affirmation of the deity of Christ.
Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the one and only Most High God?
A simple yes or no will do.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> DHK
The verbs "AM and IS are present tense. They don't say that God was the God of Abraham. Nor do they say that God will be the God of Abraham. Jesus said "I am the God of Abraham, indicating that God at that very time in history was the God of Abraham, even though he was dead. His body was dead, awaiting the resurrection. His spirit was alive in Paradise. With that one statement Jesus demonstrated to the Saducees that their unbelief in both the spirit, and the resurrection was wrong.

Unfortunately - you have failed again to address HOW the argument of Christ COULD POSSIBLY prove the resurrection ONCE you "SOLVE" the problem by getting Abraham to be ALIVE at the time God is speaking to Moses.

Your dodge there is "obvious".

I have "SHOWN" that WITHOUT the view of the spirit that you have - the ONLY solution for Christ's "puzzle" was the FUTURE resurrection.

You have not "SHOWN" the resurrection to "solve" anything in that puzzle which you claim is ALREADY solved WITHOUT the resurrection.

Consider - NO resurrecion - BUT Abraham IS ALIVE - his immortal soul is in relationship with God - God IS the God of Abraham WITHOUT the resurrection according to you. Once you make that case - there is NOTHING left in Christ's argument to "be Solved" by the resurrection.

So once again - you refuse to see the devastating "proof" that even the Sadducees could see.

Of course - I don't mean to pick on you for that - since I know full well that everybody has to "pretend" not to get the point handed to the Sadducees, not just you.

I am holding your feet to the fire in this case because I think you can take it - and might even see what the Sadducees AND Pharisees saw as "The ONLY solution" to the puzzle they had been given.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Bob your argument makes no sense at all. The Lord could say, (at the time of Moses) that He was the God of the living, not the God of the dead, and then go on to use Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as examples of this. Abraham indeed was alive. His body was dead; his spirit lived on. The very fact that he was alive--both in spirit and in soul, was proof enough to the Sadduccees that he would rise again at the Resurrection. A person without a spirit in the afterlife would not rise again. Christ demonstrates that they were still alive. He is the God of the living, demonstrating that their theology is false, demonstrating their ignorance of their own Scripture. "Ye do err not knowing the Scripture." "I am the God of the living." It is the living tha will rise again.

Scripture harmonizes with Scripture.
You must be born again. If we are to have spiritual life we must be born again into God's family.
But Jesus said to these same Saducees and Pharisees (John 8:44): "You father is the devil and the lusts of your father you will do..." They were not born again. They did not have life. They were dead, spiritually dead.

Paul wrote to the Ephesians in Ephesians (Eph.2:1):
"You hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses in sin."
He says you were once dead (when unsaved), but now are made alive (when saved), because of the blood of Christ, because they now have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said to one who would be a disciple:
Let the dead bury the dead, but come thou and follow me.
Let the spiritually dead bury the physically dead, but if you are alive in Christ come and follow me.

He said to Martha: "I am the resurrection and the life, he that believeth in me though he were dead, yet he shall live. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die, believest thou this. (John 11:25,26)
--You can live spiritually on this life. You can be alive in Heaven. Your body will be alive after the resurrection. Jesus came to give life, not soul sleep. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

The reason that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would be in the Resurrection is that they were alive to this day in Heaven. Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Moun of Transfiguration. That would have been an impossibility had their spirits been sleeping. The resurrection has not yet taken place. They have not yet received their glorified permanent bodies. Jesus is the firstfruits of the Resurrection. The bodies of Moses and Elijah remain in the grave until this day. They sleep. They are dead, subject to corruption--just like every other body, just like the bodies of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob--dead, asleep. But they are alive with Christ in Heaven awaiting the Resurrection. The Resurrection has not taken place yet. God is the God of the living, not the God of the dead.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

DHK
Bob your argument makes no sense at all. The Lord could say, (at the time of Moses) that He was the God of the living, not the God of the dead, and then go on to use Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as examples of this. Abraham indeed was alive.

DHK - you are now so "defensive" in your posting that you can't allow yourself even the objectivity of "knowing" my argument - that you object to. That is amazing.

The Jews in Matt 22 did not go that far.

If you wish to show that the "obvious" argument in Matt 22 does not work - then show it - but don't pretend that you don't understand it.

As your point above "SHOWS" you "solve the problem Christ gives them WITHOUT the resurrection".

Bravo - you just loused up the entire debate and made Christ' argument worthless as a "proof" of the resurrection to a hostile debate opponent.

This has been said - about 20 times so far - but you seem content to argue into the void without actually responding to the point.

You simply repeat your preference instead of "SHOWING" exegesis - "Showing" how it MAKES the point - proving the resurrection to the hostile audience.

Why?

DHK

His body was dead; his spirit lived on. The very fact that he was alive--both in spirit and in soul, was proof enough to the Sadduccees

Obviously "not".

Because
A - If the "ALREADY thought Abraham was alive" while dead - BUT did not believe in the resurrection "anyway" (as you sometimes asserted) then IT ALREADY is not "compelling to them".

B - IF they did NOT believe Abraham was "already alive" NOTHING that is argued in the Matt 22 "made them think he WAS alive" - since as "Christ said" the POINT was to PROVE THE RESURRECITON not "the Living DEAD".

Your assertion above fails in EITHER direction.

Amazing - A point that fails both ways!!

You really are good at this.

DHK
that he would rise again at the Resurrection. A person without a spirit in the afterlife would not rise again. Christ demonstrates that they were still alive. He is the God of the living,

Again - SOLVING the problem WITHOUT the need of the "resurrection".

Congratulations for doing it "repeatedly" and "tirelessly".

DHK
The reason that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would be in the Resurrection is that they were alive to this day in Heaven.

Again - repeating yourself won't make a point where you have failed to make it in the first place.

IF the Sadducees ALREADY thought of the dead as ALIVE (as you have asserted on this thread)- then they had NO NEW argument for the resurrection.

IF the Sadducees DID NOT believe such a thing as "LIFE IN DEATH" (no spirit) then Christ's OWN statement that is intent is to PROVE THE RESURRECTION would NOT have caused them to choose "The Living Dead" as their solution INSTEAD of the resurrection - that is future.

We know this SINCE they already accept the principle for Abraham that God considered him to be the FAther of Many Nations - while as yet he had NO child.

This SHOWS how the exegetical context forces them to ONE and ONLY ONE solution - the resurrection.

Your tactic repeating yourself in the form of "yes but Abraham was ALIVE after he died so that solves the issue of God being the God of the LIVING" merely shuts down your OWN argument before it gets started. You disqualify your OWN point as a possible "SOLUTION requiring the resurrection".

This is so obvious - even the Sadducees got it.

How in the world can you keep pretending not to get it??

You are better than that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
I believe what those verses say.

1. Yeshua is the Christ
2. Yeshua is the Son of God
3. Yeshua is the Son of Man
4. Yeshua has power over all flesh
5. Yeshua did nothing of Himself
6. Yeshua spoke the things His Father taught Him
7. Yahweh sent Yeshua
8. Yahweh did not leave Yeshua alone
9. Yeshua always did the things that pleased Yahweh
10. Eternal life is KNOWING the ONE TRUE GOD, Yahweh and HIS SON Yeshua that HE sent
11. If I continue in His Word, I am His disciple INDEED
12. I know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH has set me free

God Bless,
Kelly

These also are very good statements and verses. But not one of them give a straight forward affirmation of the deity of Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]Neither do any of those verses. I believe what the verses say.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the one and only Most High God?
A simple yes or no will do.
DHK

I believe what the Bible says.

God Bless,
Kelly