Hal Parker
New Member
Evangelism is listed as one of the five purposes in the purpose driven life. If you go through the lifeway Bible study based on the purpose driven life, it has a good emphasis on Scripture and does encourage people to witness.
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"Will sucess spoil Rick Warren?"
- Thread starter WHYME
- Start date
I don't know Rick Warren's heart neither does anybody else here. I'm not a big fan of PDL it has its pros and cons. I just laugh outloud sometimes at the American church. We are so full of bologna. Have you ever stopped and asked yourself why american evangelicals have to have so much offered to them by way of Worship, books, buildings, programs etc... When christians around the world get along with so much less? I wonder how much more could be done in spreading the Gospel to the unreached if so much money wasn't having to be spent on gigantic church campuses and facilities here in the states? Some christians meet under a tree because they have no building while here in the states we have churches that look like malls with food courts etc... I mean so okay the PDL is a best seller. Do we really need PDL calendars, PDL key chains, PDL journals, PDL devotionals, PDL pocket sized devotionals, PDL book of quotes, PDL pens, PDL chuch edition, PDL the bookstore edition, PDL audio book, etc... For crying out loud can you say overkill.
I just find it a little eerie that so many people fall under the influence of one man and his philosphy of ministry. I just think that is a dangerous trend be it RW or anybodyelse.
I think it is a sad day when preachers can go to a website and get everything from a sermon along with a drama skit to the very music that such and such big time church is using and just tweak it a little and make it your own. Why its "Sunday Service in a box" I guess instead of coming up with a "Saturday night special" the old fashioned way now you just have your Sunday service fed exed to you if your running behind.
Why are do so many evangelicals think its so "cool" when one of their own get "accepted" or "recognized" by the national media? Jesus said the world hated Him and it will hate us too. I'm always cautious when certain preachers begin to gain the praise of those who are not christians.
I just think we could be way more for the great commission around the world if we weren't spending gobs and gobs of money on ourselves in the states in trying to scratch everybody where they itch whether they are the saved or the lost.
IMHO the american church is very rich but also very, very poor.
I just find it a little eerie that so many people fall under the influence of one man and his philosphy of ministry. I just think that is a dangerous trend be it RW or anybodyelse.
I think it is a sad day when preachers can go to a website and get everything from a sermon along with a drama skit to the very music that such and such big time church is using and just tweak it a little and make it your own. Why its "Sunday Service in a box" I guess instead of coming up with a "Saturday night special" the old fashioned way now you just have your Sunday service fed exed to you if your running behind.
Why are do so many evangelicals think its so "cool" when one of their own get "accepted" or "recognized" by the national media? Jesus said the world hated Him and it will hate us too. I'm always cautious when certain preachers begin to gain the praise of those who are not christians.
I just think we could be way more for the great commission around the world if we weren't spending gobs and gobs of money on ourselves in the states in trying to scratch everybody where they itch whether they are the saved or the lost.
IMHO the american church is very rich but also very, very poor.
guitarpreacher
New Member
I think it's pretty easy to see Rick Warren's heart. We're not the Holy Spirit, so there's always a limit, but based on the fruit and the testimony, I think we can get a pretty good feel for what RW is all about. He's a pastor. That's all he's ever desired or ever sought. For the past 20+ years he's pastored Saddleback church, and has evangelized and discipled thousands in Southern California. And that's what he's all about today. Oh yeah, he wrote a book that has been unbelievably successful. But he's still a pastor.
By coming up with a Saturday Night Special the old fashioned way, you mean going to the bookshelf and pulling down "100 Great Evangelistic Sermons" and throwing in a few personal stories. At least that's what most would mean. Hard for me to understand how it is that a sermon copied from a book, or pulpit helps magazine, or scribbled down on a piece of paper while your friend preached it at a revival is good, but one downloaded from the internet is evil. Can you say inconsistent?
GP,
You misunderstood my point, both ways are wrong be it downloaded from the internet or copied from a book. I just don't like the idea of a "packaged worship service". I'm not just picking on RW.
Go to Ed Young Jr.'s website. You can "buy" his different series of messages right along with all the extras. I enjoy hearing ED he is a relavant,gifted speaker. I just disagree with the idea of selling worship services made to order so to speak. Ed talks all the time about being "creative" in ministry and worship etc... Well its not to creative when all a dude has to do is buy his "worship in a box". I just think its silly. The best thing you can do for your flock is study and pray over Scripture until God gives you a message straight from His Word directly to your heart. I know its harder. Some might not have time to go to the latest Church growth seminar etc.. But the in the long run the flock will be alot better off.
You misunderstood my point, both ways are wrong be it downloaded from the internet or copied from a book. I just don't like the idea of a "packaged worship service". I'm not just picking on RW.
Go to Ed Young Jr.'s website. You can "buy" his different series of messages right along with all the extras. I enjoy hearing ED he is a relavant,gifted speaker. I just disagree with the idea of selling worship services made to order so to speak. Ed talks all the time about being "creative" in ministry and worship etc... Well its not to creative when all a dude has to do is buy his "worship in a box". I just think its silly. The best thing you can do for your flock is study and pray over Scripture until God gives you a message straight from His Word directly to your heart. I know its harder. Some might not have time to go to the latest Church growth seminar etc.. But the in the long run the flock will be alot better off.
guitarpreacher
New Member
Explain to me why it is wrong to use other resources. There's nothing new under the sun. Every message I've ever preached has been influenced by other sermons I've heard and books I've read. I'll be honest, I'm just not smart enough to always be original.
Who's to say, that sense God has given Ed Young Jr. the amount of resources that he has, the research staff that he's got, and the media experts available in that church - if that all came from God, how could you say that God's desire is not for me to take advantage of what he's provided?
btw, I disagree that it's harder to come up with your own stuff. I've done both. (can't afford Ed Youngs stuff, but have used others) My prep time is the same whether I use Rick Warren's outline and notes or whether I start from scratch. For one thing, my wife's name is not Kay
I would agree with you that if all you're doing is Saturday night running to the internet, downloading a sermon and then reading it in front of the congregation, that couldn't be more wrong. But there is nothing wrong with using the resources that God makes available. I'll probably never have a staff that includes 10 interns who can meticulously look up every Scripture reference for the word grace and then report back to me with all the ones that possibly fit our topic. But if God has blessed others with those kinds of resources, and has led them to make them available to other pastors, why should be not take full advantage of what God provides?
Who's to say, that sense God has given Ed Young Jr. the amount of resources that he has, the research staff that he's got, and the media experts available in that church - if that all came from God, how could you say that God's desire is not for me to take advantage of what he's provided?
btw, I disagree that it's harder to come up with your own stuff. I've done both. (can't afford Ed Youngs stuff, but have used others) My prep time is the same whether I use Rick Warren's outline and notes or whether I start from scratch. For one thing, my wife's name is not Kay
I agree with you there is nothing new. Any message your gonna preach somebody in some way has preached it before. I just dont' equate preparing a sermon from sources that have influenced me indirectly versus purchasing the very manuscript from some fellow's ministry pack then tweaking it to make it my own. There is a difference IMO.
I also agree with you in general as far as making good use of available resources. I just don't feel comfortable with buying a guy's sermon series and doing it myself.
For example.(Hypothetical) I remember Ed Y.Jr. did a popular series on the radio called "expresso yourself" It was a catchy, relevant theme. Now lets say as a pastor of a church of about 150 I really like that series. Now grant it I'm the only paid staff person at this church. I have to do alot of other stuff besides preach you know what I mean.
Okay, so I decide to "do" "expresso yourself" on a series of Sundays so I use the church credit card to buy the "pac" right along with the manuscripts that come with it right off the internet.(ministry expense) I use his manuscripts and tweak it here and there and kinda "make it my own".
Now, is that ethical? I mean one requirement on my job description is to preach the Word. Did I earn my paycheck during that series being that it was basically put together for me already?
Ethically speaking do I share with the congregation before the series begins that it is somebodyelse's material? Or do I pass it off as my own?
Just throwing that out for fun.
I also agree with you in general as far as making good use of available resources. I just don't feel comfortable with buying a guy's sermon series and doing it myself.
For example.(Hypothetical) I remember Ed Y.Jr. did a popular series on the radio called "expresso yourself" It was a catchy, relevant theme. Now lets say as a pastor of a church of about 150 I really like that series. Now grant it I'm the only paid staff person at this church. I have to do alot of other stuff besides preach you know what I mean.
Okay, so I decide to "do" "expresso yourself" on a series of Sundays so I use the church credit card to buy the "pac" right along with the manuscripts that come with it right off the internet.(ministry expense) I use his manuscripts and tweak it here and there and kinda "make it my own".
Now, is that ethical? I mean one requirement on my job description is to preach the Word. Did I earn my paycheck during that series being that it was basically put together for me already?
Ethically speaking do I share with the congregation before the series begins that it is somebodyelse's material? Or do I pass it off as my own?
Just throwing that out for fun.
guitarpreacher
New Member
Hey Shannon,
Obviously passing it off someone elses work as yours is wrong. And purchasing a sermon because you're too lazy to write on is wrong. In fact, if you're too lazy to prepare a sermon, you're gonna be too lazy to make someone elses sermon your own. Anyone can stand up and read a manuscript, but you'll sound just like someone reading a manuscript. Seen it done, and it stinks.
Back when the Passion Of Christ movie was being shown in theatres, there was a lot of talk about who killed Christ. I wrote an article for the local paper based on the old game "Clue", and went through the evidence of who killed Jesus. I emailed a copy to a friend in another state, who forwarded it to a friend of his, and I got an email from this guy I didn't know asking permission to preach from my article. I was honored that God would use something I wrote like that. The pastor emailed me after he preached it and said it was one of the best sermons he'd ever preached. It thrilled me that God used it that way. And to me, that's what it's all about. Dude, I don't even take credit for the stuff I do write, so forget about me taking credit for somebody elses. It's all about doing what honors God, and that means preaching what God want's preached, regardless of who writes it.
Honestly, I don't know how anyone can afford to preach Ed Young's stuff. If you get the whole Pac, like you're talking about, you'll spend over $300. I can't do it.
Obviously passing it off someone elses work as yours is wrong. And purchasing a sermon because you're too lazy to write on is wrong. In fact, if you're too lazy to prepare a sermon, you're gonna be too lazy to make someone elses sermon your own. Anyone can stand up and read a manuscript, but you'll sound just like someone reading a manuscript. Seen it done, and it stinks.
Back when the Passion Of Christ movie was being shown in theatres, there was a lot of talk about who killed Christ. I wrote an article for the local paper based on the old game "Clue", and went through the evidence of who killed Jesus. I emailed a copy to a friend in another state, who forwarded it to a friend of his, and I got an email from this guy I didn't know asking permission to preach from my article. I was honored that God would use something I wrote like that. The pastor emailed me after he preached it and said it was one of the best sermons he'd ever preached. It thrilled me that God used it that way. And to me, that's what it's all about. Dude, I don't even take credit for the stuff I do write, so forget about me taking credit for somebody elses. It's all about doing what honors God, and that means preaching what God want's preached, regardless of who writes it.
Honestly, I don't know how anyone can afford to preach Ed Young's stuff. If you get the whole Pac, like you're talking about, you'll spend over $300. I can't do it.