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Will There Be a Future Literal 1000-Year Reign of Christ on the Earth?
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Off of the Calvinism thing, I'M TALKING ABOUT MY POINTS ON THIS TOPIC which you refuse, or are incapable, to answer...
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
The glorified Christ directed the apostle John to write seven letters to seven 1st century churches (Rev. 2-3). In 2 of those letters, Christ Himself revealed the active workings of Satan at the very time those letters were written:
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Here, Christ talks about the devil's direct attacks on believers in the church at Thyatira. Satan certainly was not bound, shut up, and sealed in the bottomless pit at that time.
Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Here, Christ talked about Satan's seat being in Pergamos and his dwelling there. Obviously, because Satan was dwelling there, he certainly was not at that time bound, shut up, and sealed in the bottomless pit.
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Here, Christ talks about the devil's direct attacks on believers in the church at Thyatira. Satan certainly was not bound, shut up, and sealed in the bottomless pit at that time.
Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Here, Christ talked about Satan's seat being in Pergamos and his dwelling there. Obviously, because Satan was dwelling there, he certainly was not at that time bound, shut up, and sealed in the bottomless pit.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
If preterism is based on the Olivet Discourse, all are 1/3rd preterist.
3 questions:
"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
Preterist can only answer the first question. When shall "these things" be? The destruction of the Temple.
The second question is the Second Coming.
The third question is either end of the age or end of the world.
To define the end of the age, they were still under the OT economy. Jesus had not died, and though He kept telling them the Cross was soon, to them it could have been thousands of years away. Not even in their lifetime. That is because dozens of generations had thought the exact same thing for 490 years at the least. They were only Preterist in the sense the end of the age would not happen soon. Now there are Preterist who say 70AD was the end. Those listening to the words of Jesus were looking forward perhaps hundreds or thousands of years. They did not accept Daniel's 490 years either. They also celebrated Hanakah which started almost 200 years prior with the abomination of desolation already fulfilled. That is like humans today celebrating the 250th year of the birth of the United States. So distant of a memory that all they had was the celebration itself.
So they were not looking for the apocalyptic end of existence. They were looking for the Messianic change. The last day Resurrection. In that sense, even Preterist are not Preterist. They are still looking for that "last day" Resurrection. The end of the age was only days away. They were not asking about the end of the church. How we see the NT church was as foreign to them as aliens from another planet are foreign to us. They were constantly being told by Jesus He would soon die and leave. They did not grasp that the age would end in a few days.
So Jesus never answered directly an end. He just said the end was not yet. He did not mislead them, so folks today should not be misled that Jesus never answered them, because they were asking about the wrong age. In that point not even Preterist can get it right that the Cross was the end of the world, age. They still hang theology on 70AD.
So back to the non preterist question. "Thy coming". Since He was there, it was not about that coming. The Second Coming is future, because when He comes it will not be a secret. It will not be hidden. It will literally be the end of many things, just not all things.
The time between the battle of Jericho and the conquest of the Promised Land and the Cross was about 1400 years. That was the age the Cross brought to a close. That was the time that had a last day resurrection at the Cross. For those in the first century it probably seemed an eternity. If it had a "golden age", it was so short, it was long forgotten. That describes the mindset of those at the Olivet Discourse. They were not looking for 2000 more years of misery. Seems disingenuous looking back 1991 years and claim to know they were Preterist and that the Second Coming happened in the first century. The NT church had not even started when they were sitting on the Mount of Olives. History was still future to them. Even writing the event down from memory does not make them Preterist.
Paul pointed out the ages in Ephesians 3. The mystery was hidden until the Cross. Now revealed to all mankind, but the plan itself would not end until God declared the end. That is not the question they asked in the Olivet Discourse. So even the Second Coming is still not the end. The Second Coming incorporates the Day of the Lord, which by the symbolism of the term itself is an age of 1000 years. John did not use the symbolic term. John gave us the literal time frame of 1000 years. It was supposed to remove the mystery and the symbolism. Yet many want to turn 1000 back into mere symbolism.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
You left out the one in Revelation 6. The literal Second Coming:
"Then I watched as he broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, the sun turned black as sackcloth worn in mourning, and the full moon became blood-red. The stars fell from heaven to earth just as a fig tree drops its figs when shaken by a strong wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. Then the earth’s kings, the rulers, the generals, the rich and the mighty — indeed, everyone, slave and free — hid himself in caves and among the rocks in the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb! For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?”
In the Olivet Discourse when did it change to a dream sequence? Is the Second Coming as literal as the cosmic events? Were not all the OT and Jesus, Himself pointing to this future event.
Rome did not fall apart in the 1st century. Greece did not fall apart in the 1st century. Israel did not fall apart in the 1st century. Acts 2:16 is being fulfilled as ongoing, not as a single one time event. The church did not start and stop in one day.
The difference between Joseph's dream and the declaration by Jesus Christ is that Joseph had a dream where the cosmos represented his own family. Jesus Christ did not compare this future cosmic event as an explanation of Joseph's family. Jacob at the time was hardly even a great nation. Jesus already covered governments in other verses:
"And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows."
Still not a dream sequence. The Second Coming is still after all these tribulations.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
It is not election. They do not even get a vote. It is not free will. They do not get a vote. They have no choice in the matter. Those elect, historically, have had a choice.
They did get God's vote. Their names are in the Lamb's book of life along with every other descendant of Adam. Partial election to be sure.
“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads!”
This is a life changing seal, because it it associated with avoiding physical destruction. Not only were they protected, they were translated from death to life at the moment they were sealed. And they did not choose that seal. God gave it to them, and at the same time removed free will. The church in Christ has no free will once the soul has moved from the corruptible to the incorruptible. One cannot choose to go back, once they physically die. Free will is only the ability of souls in dead corruptible bodies. This current physical body is a dead body. It is not incorruptible. When the 144k are sealed they are given incorruptible bodies, and no longer exercise free will. Unlike their counterparts in the 1st century, the original 12 disciples, who still had to struggle in their corruptible sin filled carnal bodies.
The church is already complete, glorified, and in Paradise because in contrast to the 144k, a specifically defined group, we immediately move to:
"After this, I looked; and there before me was a huge crowd, too large for anyone to count, from every nation, tribe, people and language. They were standing in front of the throne and in front of the Lamb, dressed in white robes."
These people in Paradise do not exercise free will either.
“Day and night they serve him in his Temple;
and the One who sits on the throne
will put his Sh’khinah upon them.
“They will never again be hungry,
they will never again be thirsty,
the sun will not beat down on them,
nor will any burning heat."
Free will is practically over after the 6th Seal. About the only free will choice left is between taking the mark and getting one's head chopped off. Which will be the last free will choice those individuals will ever make.
What is the point of free will in a resurrection body that is incorruptible without a sin nature? Election is already sure. There is an iron rule by Christ. People are born into an incorruptible body. There is still limited free will to rebel. Can one rebel within the framework of no sin present? Adam disobeyed before there was sin. Post millennialist, avoided this distinction about post Second Coming earth by just declaring the earth desolate for 1000 years. That was before most decided to just move the millennial kingdom to before the Second Coming in opposition to how John saw it as after the Second Coming.
Avoiding how election and free will work, by rearranging time is not a proper answer. Did Adam have free will, prior to disobeying God? Adam was elect. He was a son of God. He was the full image of God on earth. He was even called out and chosen from the rest of the sons of God, and placed in the Holy Place called the Garden of Eden. Adam was charged essentially with the task of preventing sin and death from entering creation. His name was in the Lamb's book of life. One cannot get more elect than that. Of course Satan still wanted Adam to disobey and sin enter along with death. Did Adam's disobedience seal his fate and remove him from the Lamb's book of life? Was that Adam's one and only vote. Did Adam have more free will, after or before he ate?
The Millennium kingdom places resurrected incorruptible bodies back to a state prior to sin being in the world. Yet God still allows Death, rebellion, and withholds blessings on those who "willfully" brake the law. Death is a curse, and permanent. No prisons, no rehab. Did no one after reading Revelation, throughout the last 1900+ years, not understand the implication of the finality of sin at the 7th Trumpet? That all Adam's flesh dies? That only a resurrection to an incorruptible body populates the millennium? It is a time set apart like a Sabbath. No work. No sin. No Satan. A glorious throne of Christ set up in Jerusalem. A first day resurrection. 144k males chosen by God and sealed without their free will choice. Many beheaded people resurrected back to live. Obviously the souls of the sheep and the wheat sown during the time Jesus Christ and His 144k disciples are on the earth. Did all the church succumb to symbolism without any literal application, whatsoever?
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Exodus 20:8-11.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
1000 years equates to a day of the Lord's time. This Commandment is not just a command to do. It is a command to Remember. We are not to Remember the command. We are to Remember what the command represents.
The punishment given to Adam cannot exceed the labor spent by God creating the heavens and earth. God puts the command in reference to the punishment.
"Six days shalt thou labour." Written as the rest, it would read, "Thou shalt labor six days."
"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
"For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
God promised Adam. God promised Moses, and His chosen people in the 4th Commandment that punishment would not be forever. It will have an end. That 1000 years equates to a day is given to us by Peter to show the long suffering nature of God.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Six Days thou shalt labor and then comes the Sabbath Day. We don't go through this 6 days, just so God can cancel the Sabbath.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Was the battle of Armageddon where the FP and beast cast into the Lake of Fire accomplished? Were all of humanity killed by Jesus Christ at the battle of Armageddon at this point of accomplishment? Was Satan bound at this same battle of Armageddon? These are the facts, without any interpretation.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Is this a literal event or how would any reader interpret an event involving Jesus Christ the Lord of the earth, without leaving out a single detail?
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
I do not think that what you argue here is valid. Your attempt to link the punishment on Adam with the 4th Commandment simply because they both talk about labouring is flawed. To then link those wrongly linked ideas to the Millennium is to engage in fanciful argumentation that lacks biblical merit.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Read Matthew 13.
The Lord references none of the 'future' events when He Speaks.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
God linked it to creation. Most just link the literal week to creation. God did not want us to Remember the week, but the day of rest. Why command someone to work 6 days? Are we supposed to make one day a week Holy? Can we as humans do that? Yes, by not working. But the command was not to make a day Holy, it was not to work 6 days. It was not even to have a day of rest. God had to command them not to work, as well as command them to work. The command was to Remember, not a day of the week. We are to Remember the literal 7th Day. No one even knows how long that day was, much less Remembers it.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Can you discern which ones apply to the church, and which ones apply to the Second Coming after the church is taken out of this world?
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
To make the 7th day of Creation a day of differing length than the other literal 24-hour days of the first 6 days has no biblical merit. I do not know of any reason to hold that it was anything but 24 hours long.
More importantly, I do not see any connection between any of this and whether there will be a future literal 1000-year millennial reign of Christ on the earth.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
And how does that change anything? Again, you are confusing the Kingdom of God (spiritual) with the Physical Reign that is going to come. They are RELATED but not the same.
what did Jesus say it is?
you are not answering the actual question
Jesus said the light of the sun & moon will be obscured.
This has happened during dust storms, volcanic eruptions, & during the Western US wildfires last year, to name a few instances. But Jesus spoke of a WORLDWIDE obscuring. And it's not yet occurred.
Not one hint it'll be anything but just that. The only govt. that'll be at that time will be that of the beast.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
The Second Coming is The Second Coming of Jesus, at The End of Time and The End of The World.
The Bible Speaks of this Second Coming as Imminent and Absolutely FINAL.
Here are 65 more verses that also TEACH The Second Coming, as Jesus Would Have us to Understand that Jesus is Coming. And that 'That' is 'It'.
9.0.0 > NT Intro iv: SIXTY-SIX NEW TESTAMENT Verses Teach The SECOND COMING of JESUS CHRIST & THE END of TIME.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
I see nothing 'future', of a 'sign', or anything, prior to The Lord's Return.
9 I know thy tribulation, and thy poverty (but thou art rich), and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they art not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Rev 2
9 Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Rev 3
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Yes, I am aware of those verses, but someone could explain those verses as speaking only of people who worship Satan and not verses that speak of any activities directly by Satan himself.
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