wine again

There are all sorts of factors involved in impairment – your weight, the pacing of alcoholic beverages and whether or not you are drinking on an empty stomach.

My rule is that I don’t drink more than one glass of any alcoholic substance. And if I have something alcoholic to drink, I always consume food with it. Since I am about 6’05” and 260 lbs, 1 glass of wine is not going to impair me.

Most people I know who drink responsibly have a rule that they are not going to drive if they have an alcoholic drink.

Moderation is not difficult unless you are trying to develop a legalistic rule that is supposed to fit everyone. Drinking in moderation requires personal responsibility and ethical standards, not rigid rules.

 

because someone accused Him of being a drunkard that proves he drank alchoholic wine? how?

...

 

because someone accused Him of being a drunkard that proves he drank alchoholic wine? how? </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus was making a comparison that doesn’t make sense unless the liquid he was drinking was alcoholic.

Matthew 11:19 “The Son of Man came eating… and they say, ‘Behold a man gluttonous…’”

Jesus ate food and they accused him of not eating in moderation.

Matthew 11:19 “The Son of Man came … drinking, and they say ‘Behold … a winebibber’”

Jesus drank wine and they claimed he was not drinking in moderation. Since a winebibber is simply King James English for “drunkard”, the liquid he drank must have been alcoholic. Otherwise the comparison makes no sense.

 

1.Many fruits, grapes included have a powdery `bloom` on them when fully ripe, this is a natural yeast.
2.In order to make the juice come out of the fruit i.e. to make liquid to drink, you have to press/crush the fruit.
3.In the fruit is natural sugar.
4. Fermentation is caused by the contact between yeast and sugar.
5. The act of fermentation produces alchohol.
6. Unless you wash `em before you squash `em (grapes that is ) you will produce alchohol quite quickly - especially in a warm place - because of the above factors, the wine people would drink in those days was certain to have been an alchoholic drink.

[ June 26, 2003, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Gwyneth ]

 

Instead of giving reasons why I'm wrong. As was stated Just believe the Bible. I once again point you back to Proverbs 23. I agree with the lady that grape juice will ferment. "Them that go to seek mixed wine" it goes on top describe the traits of the mixed wine.

 

Because the Bible says "wine", not "grape juice". Isn't what the Bible says a good enough reason?

I do. It says "wine". I believe it. Do you?

I once again point out the fact that the passages in Prov 23 that deal with wine, deal with *abuse* of wine - i.e. excessivenss.

 

Nice dodge of my question mxwelch.

But just in case you missed it......how can you "be not drunk" on something that isn't alcoholic in the first place?

 

Just because it says "wine" you assume that it speaks of alcholic content. Then explain "mixed wine" to me. Yes being drunk requires alcohol but don't assume every verse speaks of it as such. Personally I could care less.
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Thats how God has led me through the reading of the Bible and I'll stand by it.
Proverbs 23 is not the only Scripture that deals with this issue.
Good Day.

 

The word "wine" is generic, and can refer to both fermented and non-fermented grape juice (even some more modern English dictionaries list this as one definition). For example,

"Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all." (Is 65:8)

You don't find alcohol in a cluster of grapes, but you do find grape juice.

 

I'm sorry but here is a verse that supports the use of wine in moderation.
1 Timothy 5:23

 

This is a perplexing comment. It's like saying:

------------------------------------------
"Most people I know ...
... who watch rated R films responsibly ..."
... who view pornography responsibly ..."
... who have premarital sex responsibly ..."
... who abort responsibly ..."
... who steal responsibly ..."
... who murder responsibly ..."
------------------------------------------

God's plan for me has never included jeopardizing my witness or being a stumbling block. I abstain always - both in public and in private.

If you feel that God's plan for you includes alcohol, that's between you and Him.

And that's all I got to say 'bout that!
PJ

 

You make the point that the abuse of sex is sin, but not all sex is sin, such as between a husband and wife.

Just because sex can be abused doesn't mean that we, as christians, should abstain from it in our marriages.

Such is the case with wine (or alcohol), the abuse of which is sin. The Bible teaches that it is a blessing, when not abused.

 

Regardless of how anyone wants to define "wine", the context here demands wine with alchohol.

People practice this even today. You serve the best wine first, and after the alcohol dulls their senses, you bring out the inferior wine because most people can no longer tell the difference. This simply doesn't work with grape juice.

 

This is a perplexing comment. It's like saying:
------------------------------------------
"Most people I know ...
... who watch rated R films responsibly ..." </font>[/QUOTE]Many movies are trash and not worth the time of the Christian. I, for one, don’t select movies on the basis of the MPAA’s politicized decisions, but on the content of a movie. Going to see a movie is not necessarily an endorsement of the content of the movie just like reading a book is not an endorsement of all the content of the book.

I believe I want movies responsibly. Some of them are rated R.

These things are sinful. Drinking alcohol is not necessarily sinful or else our Christian faith is in bad shape since Jesus Himself turned water into wine and also consumed alcoholic wine. The comparison can only make sense if you make the false and unbiblical assumption that alcoholic beverages are inherently sinful. You’re using circular reasoning.

While it makes good rhetoric for those who are already convinced of your position, it is faulty reasoning, unbiblical and not worthy of a disciple of Christ.

If that is your conviction, good for you!

Then why all the unbiblical and unchristian condemnation of my position in this post?

 

It is amazing that people are so quick to condemn others for consuming Alcohol. Is the same condemnation heaped on Jesus?

 

Did you not read the entire post? As I stated earlier:

Just as you are free to share your "position" on any given subject, so may everyone else.

PJ

 

Did you not read the entire post? </font>[/QUOTE]Sure I did. You compared the drinking of alcoholic beverages in moderation to pornography, premarital sex, abortion, stealing and murder. That’s an extremely negative comparison.

Then you said:

While I can agree with this sentiment, try using some of your comparisons for drinking in moderation:

“If you feel that God's plan for you includes pornography, that's between you and Him.”

“If you feel that God's plan for you includes premarital sex, that's between you and Him.”

“If you feel that God's plan for you includes abortion, that's between you and Him.”

“If you feel that God's plan for you includes stealing, that's between you and Him.”

“If you feel that God's plan for you includes murder, that's between you and Him.”


Somehow I don’t believe you would say that murder is simply an issue between me and God. I found the way you alternately condemned my view (which I thoroughly believe in biblical) and then seemed to change you tune at the end of the post. That’s why I asked the question:

Why all the unbiblical and unchristian condemnation of my position in this post?

Certainly. I’m just trying to make some sense of yours…

 

If you reread the posts you'll see that those of us who feel under conviction to NOT drink are jumped on as strongly as those who choose TO drink.

The Lord has spoken to MY heart and I choose NOT to drink. To do otherwise, for me, would be sin! What you do is between you and the Lord.

However, being seen entering an R rated movie by an non Christian is a detriment to one's testimony. What is the difference between going to see a movie with nudity or going into a topless bar or a 'peep show' type place.

Diane

Brian: I do not need verses to support drinking since I do not drink. Drinking is wrong for me and my testimony. Period.

 

Frankly, I haven’t seen that at all. The only ones I see who are “jumped on” are those who have made the decision that all Christians should not drink.

Good for you!

1.) Just because a movie is rated “R” does not mean it contains nudity. I’ve been to many “R” movies where no one was naked.

2.) Topless bars and ‘peep shows’ are designed to provoke lust. I don’t go to movies for the purposes of lust.

3.) NonChristians understand the difference between most “R” movies and topless bars.

 

Diane, you read my mind!

BB, we may not be held accountable today or tomorrow but the day will come when we will be held accountable.

As was stated in my Sunday School class yesterday by a very wise man: there's a reason why our path is so narrow. It's only wide enough for we and our Savior to travel. And why is the other path so wide? So that there's plenty of room for us to take our friends along.

Accountability = our testimony, every hour of every day -- for we may be the only Bible that some folk ever read.
PJ