Wine and gambling

[RaptureReady]

Originally posted by KenH:
If the wine Jesus drank was unfermented, then His accusers would not have called Him a drunkard, unless one can get drunk on unfermented wine.

This fermented wine-phobia among some Christians is an absolutely ludicrous attempt to prove what is not Biblically provable - that a Christian is not permitted to drink any alcoholic beverage in moderation.

Let's use common sense here. You mentioned that the accusers would not have called Him a drunkard if he was not drinking. Let's assume that it is okay to drink wine. Should you drink it till you get drunk, no. Even you said drink in moderation. What was Jesus doing getting drunk. Well, he wasn't. The scribes and Pharisees who were calling him a man that was gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners, were proud conceit of themselves. So you are believing what scribes and Pharisees said about Jesus, not what scripture characterizes him as.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by HomeBound:
Let's use common sense here

I thought you said common sense. Your argument made absolutely no sense.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

The Bible warns against drinking wine to excess.

The Bible condemns drunkenness.

Drunkenness is a sin.

Jesus was without sin.

End of story.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by sandrocksam:
Neat observation HANKD.
I just mention the Apostles casting lots because many people mention casting lots as gambling and refer to the Roman soldiers casting lots for Jesus' garments. Some do not want to look at the two incidents in the same light. I see no difference, both would qualify as gambling as defined by some of us Baptist but they chose to ignore the actions of the Apostles.

If Proverbs 16:33 is true then there is no such thing as the casting of lots being gambling!

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by HomeBound:
So you are believing what scribes and Pharisees said about Jesus

I did no such thing. If you would actually consider the subject with your thinking capacity instead of your unreasoning bias toward the mention of wine in the Bible, you would understand my point. My point was not that Jesus was a drunkard, He wasn't. My point is that he drank alcoholic wine. Merely drinking an alcoholic beverage does not make one a drunk. Read very carefully now - if Jesus did not drink fermented wine, then His opponents could not have accused Him falsely of being a drunk. The fact that they falsely accused Him proves that He drank fermented wine.

I hope you understand now.

Psalm 104:14-15 (ESV)
[14] You cause the grass to grow for the livestock
and plants for man to cultivate,
that he may bring forth food from the earth
[15] and wine to gladden the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine
and bread to strengthen man's heart.

Proverbs 3:9-10 (ESV)
[9] Honor the Lord with your wealth
and with the firstfruits of all your produce;
[10] then your barns will be filled with plenty,
and your vats will be bursting with wine.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by sandrocksam:
Is there such a thing as unfermented wine ?
I thought that the difference between grape juice and wine was the fermentation, am I wrong ?

Ever tasted actual grape juice?

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Ephesus23:
I am an IFB, and I am VERY much against gambling and drinking, especially drinking. Before I got saved, I was against alcohol of ANY kind or amount, and now I'm even more against it. Yes, the Bible doesn't say you can't have ANY at all; however, it does say not to get drunk with wine.

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, and whosoever is deceieved thereby is not wise." -Proberbs 20:1

"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess, but be filled with the spirit." -Ephesians 5:18

Although the Bible doesn't necessairly say there's anything wrong with drinking in moderation, I prefer to not drink at all- not even a SIP. I don't want to start a habit of drinking just a little, and have it give way to drinking a lot, and then not be able to stop myself.

I am quite confident that you have already drunk alcohol and probably didn't even know it. A number of medicines have alcohol in them.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by HankD:
You cast your bal-lot (lot).

Etymology: Italian ballotta, from Italian dialect, diminutive of balla ball
Date: 1549

Ballot comes from the idea of using a ball to cast a secret vote.

 

[Ransom]

sandrocksam said:

As for casting lots: You will note that the Apostles cast lots to replace Judas.

Be that as it may, even in the worst case it wasn't gambling. Gambling involves risk. In this case they risked nothing; rather, having done their "due diligence," they had narrowed the field of candidates for Judas' successor down to two. But at the end they had no further criteria left to decide between them, so, all other things being equal, they allowed Providence to decide.

 

[HankD]

Ransom,

That's one of the finest apologetics following after Jesuit Casuistry I've ever seen.

HankD

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by gb93433:
I am quite confident that you have already drunk alcohol and probably didn't even know it. A number of medicines have alcohol in them.

Nyquil.

I took some the other night to alleviate my Christmas headcold.

But if someone wants to be a bible literalist and say that the Bible condemns drinking of wine, then we can't come to the conclusion that the Bible forbids drinking of other alcoholic beverages like beer or vodka. The literalist can only say that the Bible forbids wine and drunkenness. The literalist cannot say the Bible forbids beer (so long as one doesn't become drunk).

Of course, the Bible DOES NOT forbid the consumption of wine or any other alcoholic beverage. It only only forbids their abuse (drunkenness).

 

[HankD]

But neither does the Bible forbid the use or the abuse of other natural products from the earth such as marijuana, several species of hallucinogenic mushrooms, catcus plants and flower seeds.

HankD

 

[timothy 1769]

Originally posted by HankD:
But neither does the Bible forbid the use or the abuse of other natural products from the earth such as marijuana, several species of hallucinogenic mushrooms, catcus plants and flower seeds.

HankD

Wait till I tell the youth group! Imagine the outreach possibilites!

 

[HankD]

Wait till I tell the youth group! Imagine the outreach possibilites!

Its written against in the Book of Common Sense.

HankD

 

[Trotter]

As Christians, we are to exercise self-control (it IS one of the fruits of the Spirit, after all). When one is intoxicated (be it from wine, beer, liquor, pot, 'shrooms, whatever), the individual no longer has control. To willfully place one's self in such a condition goes against the very character of Christianity.

As to gambling, games of chance are, in and of themselves, harmless. But it is when the intentions behind the game move into lust and greed that sin enters the picture. Even a game of tiddlywinks can be sinful if the motive behind it is sinful (the game itself is not the sin, but the intent of the heart is the sin).

Just my personal opinion and conviction. Take it for what it's worth.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Ephesus23]

Originally posted by gb93433:

"I am quite confident that you have already drunk alcohol and probably didn't even know it. A number of medicines have alcohol in them."

Yes, I have had medicines with alcohol in them and have been fully aware of it- there's nothing wrong with that. I Timothy 5:23 says "And drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." An infirmity is an illness or sickness, and so the verse in I Timothy is simply saying that you should use alcohol for illnesses.

 

[RoleTroll]

The Bible clearly approves the drinking of fermented wine in moderation. "Grape juice," as we know it, was not invented until the late 1800s (invented by Welch). Before then, fermentation would take place almost instantly.

Jesus said that new wine needs to go into a new wineskin, and new wine into an old wineskin will cause the skin to burst? Ask yourself why. It's simple: new wine gives off gas because it's still in the process of fermenting. An old wineskin doesn't give the way a new wineskin will, and the gas will cause an old wineskin to break. Jesus's listeners knew this.

 

[sandrocksam]

Concerning the Apostles casting lots: I believe Jesus told them to not do anything until they received power from on high (Holy Spirit at Pentecost) I think they jump ahead of themselves.

 

[RoleTroll]

Originally posted by timothy 1769:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HankD:
But neither does the Bible forbid the use or the abuse of other natural products from the earth such as marijuana, several species of hallucinogenic mushrooms, catcus plants and flower seeds.

HankD

Wait till I tell the youth group! Imagine the outreach possibilites! </font>[/QUOTE]There are some people who actually teach that! God gave us every seed bearing plant for consumption. Does that include marijuana?

http://www.holyhemp.org/

The seed-bearing plant we call marijuana has been in existence since the third day of Creation, with God declaring it good. He then gave it to man along with all the other seed-bearing plants and trees on the sixth day, and declared it and them not only as good, but very good. Later in Genesis, he also confirms that he gave all green plants to man for food when he made his convenant with Noah.

http://www.rism.org/isg/dlp/ganja/resources/godandganja.html

 

[Ransom]

Originally posted by HankD:

That's one of the finest apologetics following after Jesuit Casuistry I've ever seen.

No casuistry at all. As I said - gambling involves risk. When you gamble, you risk a certain amount of your money on the probability of a chance event occurring in your favour.

The disciples, on the other hand, risked nothing on a chance event with two equal outcomes - either Barsabbas Justus or Matthias would take Judas' place. (Though they didn't consider it a mere "chance" event since it is implicit in the story that even those are under God's control.)

No risk, no potential jackpot, and therefore no gambling. It's as simple as that.