Wine As A Beverage

[steaver]

To drink or not to drink as a SOCIAL issue is a matter of personal decision that is regulated to Romans 14 to those things neither right or wrong in themselves. .

I don't believe alcohol would fall under Romans 14. This would be to say that if one abstains from drinking alcohol then they are considered "weak in faith".

Using myself as an example I do not abstain because of a fear of my faith in Christ as being uncertain or that God might zap me or something bad might happen to me. Quite the contrary, I am so certain of my faith and salvation that I could go out this weekend to my old stompping grounds and get plastered with my old buddies knowing full well that it would not change my eternal life standing with Christ. But I know God would not approve of it so I choose to show Him my love by obeying His Word and not even look at it (lust after it).

 

[steaver]

When I was in school in Chicago, I used to very much enjoy sipping (not shooting) a small portion of straight scotch or bourbon when it was very cold outside. I'd come home from work late at night during the dead of winter and a little of that stuff would warm me right up.

Maybe the same would work for you. A glass of wine might calm you down a little bit.

Try a little hot cocoa. You'll get the same warm effect without the drug.

 

[steaver]

How about one of you guys explain for me the difference between "merry" and "drunk"?

Merry on alcohol means?

Drunk on alcohol means?

 

[annsni]

Come now sister. You are getting frustrated and saying things you ought not.

Notice how lovers of alcohol love the verse "wine that makes the heart merry", but some how just ignore that one that says don't even look at it. Why is that you think?

So you believe the bible promotes drinking alcohol but does not promote marijuana? Why? Both drugs create the same effect.

They do not create the same effect on the body at all.

Why does the Bible say to not even look on wine .... when it moves in the cup? Because when it's moving, you're drunk. Then it's time to put it away. Context is everything, you know.

If God did not agree that He made wine to gladden the heart, then why did He tell those bringing the tithes to the temple to buy wine and strong drink and enjoy it before the Lord and rejoice?? Nah - I'll take God's Word on this one. Alcohol is a gift from God. We are not to get drunk but are to enjoy His blessing. However, if it going to be a stumbling block for others, we are to be mature enough to give up our liberty for the sake of our brothers.

 

[Zenas]

What would be the rite of passage you speak of?

It’s when you reach a point in your life when you say, “Hey, I’m old enough to do this!” You pass from childhood to manhood; you pass from student to the ranks of the gainfully employed; you pass from single to married. Unfortunately, as you get older those rites of passage are punctuated less with an explanation point than with a sigh of resignation. I will experience a rite of passage in a couple of months when I turn 65 and go on Medicare (sigh…).

Therein lies the evil. My young teenager use to ask me why something that makes you feel good should be avoided. There is nothing new under the sun.

Are you saying something should be avoided because it’s pleasurable?

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

One big difference here. The tree of knowledge had been forbidden. Wine and strong drink have not.

So you have shown that it is not the "taste" you seek but the drunk you can get from the alcohol. For you could drink beer or wine which has no alcohol in it but that would not give you the high you are looking for.

Steaver, I don’t really appreciate your insinuation that I like getting drunk. I haven’t been drunk since December 1979. I do sense, however, that you are a reactionary on this subject who may at one time have been a problem drinker. I have seen many such crusaders in the ranks of former drinkers, former smokers, former overweight people, etc.

Pro 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, [when] it moveth itself aright.

Would Jesus go against His own Word and drink this type of wine?

It says nothing about not drinking it. The clear message of this verse is not to cultivate a craving for alcoholic beverages because craving leads to abuse and all the problems associated with it.

Pro 31:4¶[It is] not for kings, O Lemuel, [it is] not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

Is Jesus a King? Is Jesus a Priest?

Written by the same man who wrote this: “I thought in my heart, to withdraw my flesh from wine, that I might turn my mind to wisdom . . . .” Ecclesiastes 2:3 (proving that Solomon was not a teetotaler). And this: “Go then, and eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with gladness: because thy works please God.” Ecclesiastes 9:7. Translation: “Since your works are pleasing to God, you should go out and celebrate.” And why would Jesus say, “It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”? Also remember this. God makes the rules, He is not subject to them. See Mark 2:23.

 

[jaigner]

I don't believe alcohol would fall under Romans 14. This would be to say that if one abstains from drinking alcohol then they are considered "weak in faith".

Using myself as an example I do not abstain because of a fear of my faith in Christ as being uncertain or that God might zap me or something bad might happen to me. Quite the contrary, I am so certain of my faith and salvation that I could go out this weekend to my old stompping grounds and get plastered with my old buddies knowing full well that it would not change my eternal life standing with Christ. But I know God would not approve of it so I choose to show Him my love by obeying His Word and not even look at it (lust after it).

"Weak" in that case does not mean in substance. One who has "weak" faith can be theoretically just as strong in it as one with "strong" faith. It's all a matter of what their faith enables them to do.

You have thrown around a number of KJV proof-texts for your point, but have not really done any exegesis or historical/grammatical interpretation. Being faithful to scripture means that we interpret it in light of its historical context.

There is absolutely no leg to stand on here. Alcohol consumption is not prohibited by Scripture, neither is a abstaining position made normative, and, during the long history of the Church, alcohol consumption has been widely accepted by Christians.

 

[rbell]

Full disclosure: I'm a tee-totaller (for reasons I'll explain later). So, this position has nothing whatsoever to do with a need, desire, or craving for alcohol.

However, there are some inaccuracies, IMO, that I think need to be addressed:

You would have to prove that Jesus was drinking fermented wine.
This the favorite answer for those who love their alcohol. They do not understand the difference between fermented and unfermented wine.

Look: Wine was wine. It was a fermented beverage. To claim otherwise simply ignores historical fact. Now...was it just like today's wine? Highly unlikely. But it was not Welch's grape juice. To insist it was ignores historical as well as textual issues. Now...of course Jesus never was drunk. No one in their right mind insinuates such. But He, and the disciples, did drink wine.

You alcohol lovers like to throw around the "law" until it works against your argument. Here in Pa the law states that one is drunk at .08 blood alcohol content. This would mean that about two beers and an average man is considered drunk by law. About one drink for an average woman. This then means that you folks having two or three beers are drunk. Now how do you find a loop hole for your drunkenness?

Why ther perjoratives? It is possible to have a discussion on this issue without tossing out such insults. You lose credibility with these kind of grenades.

Now...for my position (oft-stated): Even though I just made the points, I did...

Q: Is it a sin for a Christian to drink alcohol?

A: A sin? I don't know...but for me, it is not wise to drink at all:

• The small potential upside (enjoying a drink) with the large potential downside (risk of intoxication and its associated problems).
  • If I were to get drunk, I could lose my job, and put my family at risk. Too high a risk for a beer.
  • If I were to get intoxicated, I could say or do things that damage my ministry and witness. Why risk it?
• There has been a history of alcoholism in my family background. If there is any sort of genetic basis, why risk it?
• I tell my students not do drink...and then I do? I see that as hypocritical. I'd rather lead by example.
• Drinking offends quite a few Christians I work with, and minister to. I'll take the "Paul and meat" example here, and give up my liberty for the sake of the Gospel.
• Simply, I don't need to drink. There's other options that have no downside that meets my needs. We're at a place historically where alcoholic beverages simply aren't in any way a necessity.

Wisdom, IMO, is asking God to help me look "down the path" and determine if long-term outcomes honor Him or not. There are too many paths that are problematic for me. I'll pass.

So...is it sinful? Unsure. Is it wise? Not for me, it ain't.

Hope that clears it up.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

They do not create the same effect on the body at all.

Why does the Bible say to not even look on wine .... when it moves in the cup? Because when it's moving, you're drunk. Then it's time to put it away. Context is everything, you know.

If God did not agree that He made wine to gladden the heart, then why did He tell those bringing the tithes to the temple to buy wine and strong drink and enjoy it before the Lord and rejoice?? Nah - I'll take God's Word on this one. Alcohol is a gift from God. We are not to get drunk but are to enjoy His blessing. However, if it going to be a stumbling block for others, we are to be mature enough to give up our liberty for the sake of our brothers.

GE:
Yes!
But the Bible doesn't tell us we are not to get 'drunk'. 'Drunk' is a very relative thing. The OT says be merry from alcohol, which is get a wee bit drunk. Exactly, a wee bit, 'drunk', that is, 'merry'. Like your song goes, get a little drunk, and you land in jail, is a little over little; but get a little drunk and pull that barge, helps, you know....

The Bible has no good word for over-use of wine. God may have given us wine for a very good trainer in behaviour and morals.

 

[John18]

I may offend some here but I must make a few comments.

First,we are SUPPOSED to come OUT from among the world and drinking alcohol in any form is not being a seperate people.It really saddens me that those that call themeselves Baptist will condone the use of alcohol as a drink and in fact,if you read your church Covenant that hangs on the wall at your church,it very well may say that you agree to "abstain from the sell and use of intoxicating beverages as a drink".

It is also absurd that some here think that all 'wine' is alcohol.If you do a study about this,you will find that it was used to mean wine as in the 'fruit of the vine' which was plain grape juice.

Many will use the wedding and the water to wine example as an excuse to drink.But,if one will stop and think,they had alrady drank a huge amount before the water was turned to wine,now,if they had already drank a huge amount and then the water was turned to wine,they would have all been stumbling drunk and Jesus would NOT have done such.

The writings in Proverbs regarding wine and alcohol tell us to avoid these things and that us what we are to DO.There is NO excuse to drink alcohol as a beverage and to do so is sin.You can say that I am judging you,that is fine but I am standing on what the Bible says and it says not to look at it and that it is a mockery.

When the word wine is used it doesnt always mean alcohol,it in many instances means,juice.For example,in one verse it says that a little wine for the stomach is good but anyone knows that alcohol is going to make a stomach problem worse.It is talking about grape juice and not alcohol.

As I said,I may make some mad here,that is fine.If I did,I have done so standing on what the Bible says and not what man says.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ag no, it's everything standing on what 'man' - John18 - says. it's standing on arrogance; nothing else. It's standing on fear to face "what the Bible says", honestly.

 

[jaigner]

As I said,I may make some mad here,that is fine.If I did,I have done so standing on what the Bible says and not what man says.

Wow.

The problem with making statements like that is that, in doing so, you separate yourself from other Bible-believing Christians, most of them, actually, who, regardless of whether they drink, believe the Bible does not prohibit it.

Any of us can slice small snippets out of the Bible to say what we want. Again, since this is obviously an issue of conscience, it is unhelpful to separate others like that. I respect your position on alcohol for your own life, but this is not a cut and dry issue.

As far as the "set apart to save" language of the Bible, I would think that would indicate the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and not be boiled down to legalistic rule-following.

 

[annsni]

I may offend some here but I must make a few comments.

First,we are SUPPOSED to come OUT from among the world and drinking alcohol in any form is not being a seperate people.It really saddens me that those that call themeselves Baptist will condone the use of alcohol as a drink

God did. We're not doing anything more than God did.

and in fact,if you read your church Covenant that hangs on the wall at your church,it very well may say that you agree to "abstain from the sell and use of intoxicating beverages as a drink".

In our church, there is no such thing.

It is also absurd that some here think that all 'wine' is alcohol.If you do a study about this,you will find that it was used to mean wine as in the 'fruit of the vine' which was plain grape juice.

Yes, it could be but wine that gladdens the heart is certainly not Welch's and neither was the wine at the wedding in Cana.

Many will use the wedding and the water to wine example as an excuse to drink.But,if one will stop and think,they had alrady drank a huge amount before the water was turned to wine,now,if they had already drank a huge amount and then the water was turned to wine,they would have all been stumbling drunk and Jesus would NOT have done such.

Not true. Remember that weddings were not the 4 hour deals we have here. They went on for days. A few glasses of wine over a few days does not make one drunk.

The writings in Proverbs regarding wine and alcohol tell us to avoid these things and that us what we are to DO.There is NO excuse to drink alcohol as a beverage and to do so is sin.You can say that I am judging you,that is fine but I am standing on what the Bible says and it says not to look at it and that it is a mockery.

Show me where the Bible says drinking alcohol is a sin. I can show you where it clearly is not because God commanded the Israelites to do it and if it's a sin, God told them to sin.

When the word wine is used it doesnt always mean alcohol,it in many instances means,juice.For example,in one verse it says that a little wine for the stomach is good but anyone knows that alcohol is going to make a stomach problem worse.It is talking about grape juice and not alcohol.

Actually no it's not. If water is making the stomach ill, alcohol will kill off the bacteria that is making one ill. That certainly was not grape juice. You do not give someone with stomach ills grape juice.

As I said,I may make some mad here,that is fine.If I did,I have done so standing on what the Bible says and not what man says.

Unfortunately, you have done just that - standing on what man says.

 

[steaver]

They do not create the same effect on the body at all.

.

Please explain the differences and why one is a good for you effect and the other is not.

Why does the Bible say to not even look on wine .... when it moves in the cup? Because when it's moving, you're drunk. Then it's time to put it away. Context is everything, you know.

So the scripture is telling us that once you are drunk (sinning) it is now time to stop drinking so you will not sin some more? Better take another try at explaining this one.

If God did not agree that He made wine to gladden the heart, then why did He tell those bringing the tithes to the temple to buy wine and strong drink and enjoy it before the Lord and rejoice??

Please give reference.

 

[annsni]

Please explain the differences and why one is a good for you effect and the other is not.

Well, both are bad for you in large quantities as is anything. However God tells us to drink wine. I think that's enough. But even weed has a beneficial effect for some. If I were to need it medically, I would use it in a heartbeat. But they do not have the same effect on you making you "drunk". Biologically, there are different delivery systems and biological effects on the body.

So the scripture is telling us that once you are drunk (sinning) it is now time to stop drinking so you will not sin some more? Better take another try at explaining this one.

Ever read about gluttony? Same thing.

Please give reference.

Deuteronomy 14:22-26

 

[steaver]

It’s when you reach a point in your life when you say, “Hey, I’m old enough to do this!” You pass from childhood to manhood; .

So at twenty a person is a child and at the majical number of twenty one God zaps you into manhood.

Steaver, I don’t really appreciate your insinuation that I like getting drunk. I haven’t been drunk since December 1979.

You the one who said you like the pleasure you receive from the alcohol. What do you think that feeling is? It is called intoxication-drunk. Look it up.

I do sense, however, that you are a reactionary on this subject who may at one time have been a problem drinker. I have seen many such crusaders in the ranks of former drinkers, former smokers, former overweight people, etc.

Actually I always believed a little alcohol was ok as a Christian until I searched the scriptures more closely and had to accept the teaching as a whole.

It says nothing about not drinking it. The clear message of this verse is not to cultivate a craving for alcoholic beverages because craving leads to abuse and all the problems associated with it.

You can drink it just don't look at it. Yeah, that makes sense. Now how would one "cultivate a craving"? Maybe by flirting with it a bit here and there? From your own testimony you have cultivated a craving for it, right?

Maybe take another stab at explaining the verse because this explanation has yourself going against your own opinion of it.

 

[steaver]

Well, both are bad for you in large quantities as is anything. However God tells us to drink wine. I think that's enough. But even weed has a beneficial effect for some. If I were to need it medically, I would use it in a heartbeat. But they do not have the same effect on you making you "drunk". Biologically, there are different delivery systems and biological effects on the body.

So I will ask again,

Please explain the differences and why one is a good for you effect and the other is not.

Ever read about gluttony? Same thing.

Let's stay on point,

So the scripture is telling us that once you are drunk (sinning) it is now time to stop drinking so you will not sin some more? Better take another try at explaining this one.

Deuteronomy 14:22-26

Thanks, I will take a look at it. In the mean time you take another look at Proverbs which states don't even look at it and see if you can come up with another way around it other than once you are drunk (in sin) you are to stop drinking so you will not sin.

 

[steaver]

"
You have thrown around a number of KJV proof-texts for your point, but have not really done any exegesis or historical/grammatical interpretation. Being faithful to scripture means that we interpret it in light of its historical context.

.

The reading is quite clear and simplistic. Maybe you could explain why the scripture does not mean what it says.

There is absolutely no leg to stand on here. Alcohol consumption is not prohibited by Scripture, neither is a abstaining position made normative, and, during the long history of the Church, alcohol consumption has been widely accepted by Christians

You keep saying it, but have not proved it. You will also find that during the long history of the Church slaughtering heretics was widely accepted by Christians. Maybe it is best we stick to scripture rather than church history examples.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

I may offend some here but I must make a few comments.

First,we are SUPPOSED to come OUT from among the world and drinking alcohol in any form is not being a seperate people.It really saddens me that those that call themeselves Baptist will condone the use of alcohol as a drink and in fact,if you read your church Covenant that hangs on the wall at your church,it very well may say that you agree to "abstain from the sell and use of intoxicating beverages as a drink".

It is also absurd that some here think that all 'wine' is alcohol.If you do a study about this,you will find that it was used to mean wine as in the 'fruit of the vine' which was plain grape juice.

Many will use the wedding and the water to wine example as an excuse to drink.But,if one will stop and think,they had alrady drank a huge amount before the water was turned to wine,now,if they had already drank a huge amount and then the water was turned to wine,they would have all been stumbling drunk and Jesus would NOT have done such.

The writings in Proverbs regarding wine and alcohol tell us to avoid these things and that us what we are to DO.There is NO excuse to drink alcohol as a beverage and to do so is sin.You can say that I am judging you,that is fine but I am standing on what the Bible says and it says not to look at it and that it is a mockery.

When the word wine is used it doesnt always mean alcohol,it in many instances means,juice.For example,in one verse it says that a little wine for the stomach is good but anyone knows that alcohol is going to make a stomach problem worse.It is talking about grape juice and not alcohol.

As I said,I may make some mad here,that is fine.If I did,I have done so standing on what the Bible says and not what man says.

Actually drinking wine is good for you. It's a medical fact. Saying otherwise is simply incorrect.

I'm still confused here. If what you say is true, then why doesn't the Scriptures say that Jesus turn the water into the fruit of the vine. Sorry. It doesn't. It says wine. Ever been to a Jewish wedding? Hint: they don't drink grape juice.

 

[annsni]

So I will ask again,

Please explain the differences and why one is a good for you effect and the other is not.

One is legal and one is illegal.

Let's stay on point,

I am staying on point. Why is it OK to eat when gluttony is condemned in Scripture? At what point is it no longer eating but gluttony? Then move over to alcohol and you have your answers.

So the scripture is telling us that once you are drunk (sinning) it is now time to stop drinking so you will not sin some more? Better take another try at explaining this one.

No. Scripture tells us to not get drunk. Period. Don't get there. Period.

Thanks, I will take a look at it. In the mean time you take another look at Proverbs which states don't even look at it and see if you can come up with another way around it other than once you are drunk (in sin) you are to stop drinking so you will not sin.

We look to the whole counsel of Scripture - not just one verse. Of course when we read that verse in context, it tells us quite a different story.

 

[annsni]

Rather than taking a verse out of context, let's take a look at the whole passage in context:

29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaining?
Who has wounds without cause?
Who has redness of eyes?
30Those who tarry long over wine;
those who go to try mixed wine.
31Do not look at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup
and goes down smoothly.
32In the end it bites like a serpent
and stings like an adder.
33Your eyes will see strange things,
and your heart utter perverse things.
34You will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea,
like one who lies on the top of a mast.
35"They struck me," you will say, "but I was not hurt;
they beat me, but I did not feel it.
When shall I awake?
I must have another drink."

Tell me what this sounds like: a person who has a glass of wine with dinner or a drunk?