Featured Wine in the first century

I am not sure of your question.
I agree that glutton is a sin.
But over-eating and malnutrition don't necessarily go together, at least not in the stats I gave.

 

Luke, I agree that obesity is a serious problem. That does not make it OK to drink. That is the same argument folks who use drugs use, they say if it is OK to drink, why shouldn't it be OK to use drugs?

And yes, obesity kills, but usually when a person is older and has lived a life, not 21 years and 24 years like my two close friends who died. The older friend was married and had a one year old at the time. They never got to really know each other.

And it is not just health issues. Tens of thousands of folks get divorced every year because one spouse has an alcohol problem. I know, my parents got divorced when I was only 5, primarily because my mother had a serious drinking problem and liked to party. Sometimes she would come home, sometimes she wouldn't. That is what drinking does.

Thousands of men lose their jobs because of drinking and plunge their family into poverty. Other's spend their paycheck at the bar before they even get home.

And just read the Police blotter in your local paper, probably 90% of the arrests made are alcohol related. A fellow gets drunk and hits his wife, or a lady gets pulled over for DUI.

So, it is not just a health issue, alcohol causes serious problems for families.

 

Sin is sin regardless of stats. Stats are great if you are making an emotional appeal to someone, well, if they are actually moved by stats.

"The gospel of niceness has absolutely nothing to do with actual gospel truths and when we pretend they are synonymous,we become a people of lies, who show more loyalty to a sickly, sweet image of discipleship than to the real sweaty, messy, honest, difficult discipleship Jesus requires of us." Jon Walker in Costly Grace, page 36.

In context Jon is talking about the dangers of legalism. This is the gospel of traditions and misrepresentations. It is cheap grace used to justify biblical laziness and is a mockery of Christ and the Cross.

 

There are numerous things affected by being overweight. It hinder body movement which helps depression. It is like a chain of events and not is completely independent of the other. Lack of exercise affects pain in older people. There are so many things that are affected by poor health that starts with poor management of our body.

 

I agree with you.
However, I would think that if you take all the factors into consideration that alcohol has a greater impact: economically, socially, spiritually, health-wise, etc., then does over-eating.

Simple facts bear this out.
Heart attacks are caused more by stress than by over-eating.
The cause of diabetes cannot be linked directly to over-eating. Its cause is still unknown. Refer back to the article I posted.

Then again, world wide, the greatest problem is hunger, starvation, malnutrition. That puts things into perspective.

Gluttony is sin. It is a choice. It is a lifestyle that people choose, and in many cases the choice is just as bad as homosexuality. You don't have to do it. You have the power of restraint.

 

I really do not know. Both are not any good for anything. Neither person is as productive as they could be. It has got to affect their emotional state.

 

I tell you what:
I'll go over "my limit" by having an extra piece or two of chocolate cake.
You go over "your limit" by having an extra beer or two.

I think I will drive myself home. :smilewinkgrin:

 

I do not drink. So that is out. My wife works in a hospital and she tells me about how many people have joint pain and joint replacements due to obesity. It seems to be on the increase.

I would have no doubt that a drunk would have some terrible problems and shorten his life by a lot. I would wonder how much the cost to society of alcoholism would compare to the cost of obesity.

 

Oh, come on, you know the Bible better than this. For the second time, THERE IS NO LIST OF DEADLY SINS IN THE BIBLE. And the only places the term "glutton" or "gluttonous" appear in the Bible are:

De 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard.
Pr 23:21 For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe [a man] with rags.

And "gluttonous" only appears in a false accusation aimed at Christ (Matt. 11:19, Luke 7:34).

 

Really? No lists of deadly sins?

What about:

Proverbs 6:16-19
Galatians 5:19-21
Rev 22:15

And, others...

I do wish to recant on one issue. Drunkenness IS listed as one of those "deadly sins" as is gluttony. Drinking or eating by themselves are not listed. We also know that God, through Paul admonished us to be "filled with the Spirit" not drunk on wine (Eph 5:18). But, again, in that passage the word "excess" is applied, which would indicate that TOO MUCH is the problem, not just the presence as some argue.

 

Once again, the term "deadly sin" is a Catholic construction, not a Biblical term. And gluttony appears in none of these lists, but drunkenness appears in Gal. as I have already noted in a previous post. And the Rev. 22:15 list is not of sins but of sinners. Come on, you're better than this.

Where is gluttony listed? NOWHERE!

And just so we are clear, I have nowhere said that putting alcohol in your mouth is a sin. Christ is clear that sin comes from within, not without. It is my stance that alcohol usage opens the way to many temptations. I'd say more, but I'm staying at a friend's house and have just been called to breakfast.

 

As far as the question in the OP goes, I believe that for numerous reasons the wine of the NT was fermented. We may not like this and we may not believe it is best for our health and or wellbeing and we may really want it to be plain grape juice but when take all the information in (Biblical and scientific) and apply raw reality you end up with fermented grape juice.

No one in my opinion would ever say "this is the best grape juice I have had, better than what I had for breakfast", or the inverse "this grape juice is awful, bring out the good stuff!". Grape juice is grape juice. But it isn't hard to imagine someone saying this about wine. Wine made from grape can vary from barrel to barrel, year to year, so many factors affect taste and it is impossibe to take even one sip of wine and not make an evaluation of the taste.

 

Look back at Jerome's post (#12). His quote from Josephus proves conclusively that the Greek word oinos ("wine" in the NT) means anything liquid made from grapes.

Your problem here is that you are interpreting the Bible by your modern experience and thinking. That is poor exegesis. People in the 1st century did not have our attitudes about drinks, alcoholic or non-alcoholic.

 

I mentioned this to Luke, but his response was to say that I had run out of Biblical arguments. (Not true as anyone who knows me will admit.) I simply can't abide his debate techniques. And I'm still waiting for Luke to list the "many" verses that endorse alcohlic beverages.) Edited in: The Hebrew word shekar ("strong drink") occurs 20 times in the OT, and only one of those is positive, which Luke has already quoted (his only verse in favor of alcohol so far).

Anyway, my question to Luke was: What three groups in the OT were teetotalers, and for what reason? (Actually there were four group, but one group's reason was immaterial to this discussion.)