Wine or Grapejuice

What exactly is your point here?

 

Because of the Biblical warnings about alcohol usage and intoxication.

So am I and/or Thomas legalists because we understand the Biblical usage of wine and the NT culture surrounding wine usage and composition? Namely, that in many instances wine was as alcoholic in that culture as your typical cough syrup is today?

Non-sequitur.

Yep.

Is this a non-sequitur or just nonsense?

 

Are you suggesting there should be a difference?
</font>[/QUOTE]No, I'm not suggesting there *should* be a difference. But I believe Christ used real wine while our church uses grape juice, and I don't think that makes any difference. I was only asking for clarification about your question.

 

This thread theme resurfaces every couple of weeks or so and never ends well.

It is somewhat paradoxical that many Christian Churches including some Baptists use real wine and are offended by grape juice because it is a modern innovation.
And vice versa.

Too bad, that we have this difference around the "love feast".

HankD

 

Pardon me for using the term "legalist." I'm sorry to have offended you, brother.

I would like to ask that you show a solid exposition of the Scriptures, existing prior to the advent of the prohibition movement, where someone refers to "wine" in the NT as "juice" or "non-fermented fruit of the vine."

As for the elements themeselves, they convey a sense of meaning. Wine is both sweet and sharp. Doesn't this convey the sacrifice of Christ? Forgiveness is sweet, yet sin is bitter. Does grape juice convey this? I'm sure someone will respond that the juice "looks" like blood, etc. But what about the TASTE? I believe Jesus used wine for a reason - the same reason He used bitter herbs and unleavened bread when He instituted the Passover meal.

Just because we are having this discussion does not mean that we are "fighting." Iron sharpens iron, as the Scriptures teach us. So, please don't think that the "two sides" here are at each other's throats just because we are having some lively discussion. When it comes down to it, I'd be glad to have communion with my brothers who use grape juice (especially since that's what we do at my home church).

Rev. G

 

That is a matter of interpretation.

To me it is.

HankD

 

Oh sure. He must have had a concealed package of Kool-Aid he pulled that off with.

Is this a non-sequitur or just nonsense?

It may be both of those, but it is actually here to make us think a little. If I had a concealed substance which makes grape-flavaored drink, and I managed to pour water from one container to another with witnesses, but none of them seeing how I managed to get the substance into the water, then would I have performed a miracle of turning water into wine?

That's the point: if all that happened was that the water became flavored, was it a miracle?

[ September 17, 2002, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: ChristianCynic ]

 

Discuss it debate it as long as you like but when the governor of the feast tasted the wine Jesus made he smacked his lips and said this is good stuff. It was real wine (alcohol) and yes Jesus made it. Does our Lord ever do anything half way. I won't claim to always understand Christian Cynic but I think his point is that if it was just juice then what was the big deal. The fact that He created wine from water was a miracle but the fact that it was great wine goes further to show how great our God is. By the way I am totally against alcohol use of any kind.
Murph

 

Cold filtered is that like cold fusion?

1 Cor 11 is the Lord's Supper and some folks were getting drunk and I don't think that happens from grape juice.

In Acts folks thought they were drunk on new wine. Can't be grape juice here either.

In fact, until the Temperance folks came around most Americans used wine not grape juice. Moderation was the key and many kept a bottle of medicinal whiskey around. It is pretty much an American thing as in Germany any member can drink any alcoholic drink, but they better not get drunk or they is out of the church. Even in the 60's the Methodist Church I attended served wine even to the kids, which is why we looked forward to Communion.

Grape juice goes through a metamorposis during fermentation equal to dying, decaying and then being rebirthed into something that gets better as it gets older and is good for healing wounds, bad stomachs, sorrow and can be a part of joy. That might be a pretty good analogy for the blood of Christ versus Welch's.