Wine vs. Grapejuice @ Communion

[JerryL]

I'm not interested in a debate on this subject, it has been hashed and rehashed several times. I found this article while studying the subject because I have never felt compfortable using grape juice at Communion. My Church uses it and I guess I will continue, but I still get the willys using it ever since I heard a local Pastor explain it a couple of years ago. I just thought this was an interesting read on how we in America came to start using grape juice at Communion. It is a long read, but worth the time when you can spare some. One interesting note that caught my eye was the first Communion with Jesus. The wine they used had to be close to 6 months old. Before we start some "shoot from the hip responses" read the article first please.
"Our Lord in
instituting the Supper after Passover, availed himself of the
expression invariably employed by his countrymen in
speaking of the wine of the Passover. On other occasions,
when employing the language of common life, he calls wine
by its ordinary name.7
Moreover, the time of the Passover was in the spring. It was held during the
first month of the Jewish calendar which is in the March/April timeframe today.
The grape harvest was in August or September. This would put Passover just about
six months away from the grape harvest season. One must remember that
pasteurization of grape juice, to keep it from turning into wine, was not invented
until 1869. As soon as grapes are crushed they begin fermenting. It is as though
grapes want to turn to wine. God made grapes so that they naturally contain the
necessary ingredients, sugar and yeast, to turn to wine. Grapes will reach almost
full alcoholic content in only five to ten days. In the first century, the Hebrews did
not have a way to store grape juice or inhibit it from fermenting until Passover."

Here is the article.
Why Did We Change the
Grape Juice to Wine
in the Communion Cup?
A Biblical View of Wine and the Cultural Influences that
Shaped the Church to Change Its Practice of Communion
by
Marion Lovett
http://www.christreformedchurch.org/PDF/WineinCommunion.pdf

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If you aren't interested in debate, why did you put it in the debate thread?

No debate about it. Alcoholic wine was not drunk by the Disciples. Read Acts 2 how they were accused of being drunk from their 'gleukos... new wine.' Gleukos was unfermented.

 

[JerryL]

If you aren't interested in debate, why did you put it in the debate thread?

No debate about it. Alcoholic wine was not drunk by the Disciples. Read Acts 2 how they were accused of being drunk from their 'gleukos... new wine.' Gleukos was unfermented.

Ok, thank you for your input. When others read the article, please give me some input also.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

In the first century, the Hebrews did
not have a way to store grape juice or inhibit it from fermenting until Passover.

No need to read the biased view of the author toward alcohol.

Your sources are not being truthful. Josephus records a fortress being found in the first century AD in which fruits were preserved for above 100 years.

Columella, who lived before Christ recorded documents that gave directions for preserving the fruit of the vine in its unfermented state.

Aristotle, Pliny, many more historical figures of the first century AD record methods of preservation.

The Bible records the Disciples drank "new wine," not alcoholic wine.

Jesus would not have given alcohol to anyone, why should we?

 

[JerryL]

Thank you.

 

[Jerome]

Perhaps if you chased the "fruit of the vine" with a swig from your flask you could avoid getting the shakes at the Lord's Supper.

 

[EdSutton]

As to this thread

Why?

Ed

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

The article, I will admit os thought provoking.

The contention however that using non-alcoholic wine is sinful is as judgmental and wromg.

 

[JerryL]

The article, I will admit os thought provoking.

The contention however that using non-alcoholic wine is sinful is as judgmental and wromg.

Yea, I didn't agree with it as being sinful either. I know the Catholic Church has always used real wine and we have at least one member of the BB in England. If that person reads this thread, what is the predominate use in England?

Edit: Where is Eire, C4K?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Edit: Where is Eire, C4K?

It is the Irish name for Ireland

 

[Ps104_33]

I wish I had a nickel for every time this subject has come up on BB.

 

[JerryL]

It is the Irish name for Ireland

Is that where you are? If so, what is predominate in the Churches over there? I'm trying to figure out if it is an American thing. I know it changed to grapejuice here in America in the 1800's. Is the same true in other countrys? According to the article, the pilgrims left England with more wine than water, does that reflect how England still does communion today? Maybe David can give an idea when he reads this thread.

 

[JerryL]

Why? "? As to why this thread.


Ed

Ed you have the power to never open this thread again, use that power if you so wish. I am not trying to debate whether wine use is wrong, we know EVERONE'S opinion on that. I am looking at when the change happened in America and how other countries do Communion.

 

[Gwyneth]

Grape juice is used where I attend. When I asked why this is the pastor told me that it was because the use of alchoholic wine may cause some to stumble.
Gwyneth (Wales UK) RE:what is predominate in the Churches over there ?


edited to add question asked above

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Is that where you are? If so, what is predominate in the Churches over there? I'm trying to figure out if it is an American thing. I know it changed to grapejuice here in America in the 1800's. Is the same true in other countrys? According to the article, the pilgrams left England with more wine than water, does that reflect how England still does communion today? Maybe David can give an idea when he reads this thread.

A total mix in the truly Christian churches. Some use wine and some use grape juice. I suspect that most of the churches who use grape juice were started by American missionaries - thats the way we are.

 

[webdog]

I'm not interested in a debate on this subject, it has been hashed and rehashed several times. I found this article while studying the subject because I have never felt compfortable using grape juice at Communion. My Church uses it and I guess I will continue, but I still get the willys using it ever since I heard a local Pastor explain it a couple of years ago. I just thought this was an interesting read on how we in America came to start using grape juice at Communion. It is a long read, but worth the time when you can spare some. One interesting note that caught my eye was the first Communion with Jesus. The wine they used had to be close to 6 months old. Before we start some "shoot from the hip responses" read the article first please.
"Our Lord in
instituting the Supper after Passover, availed himself of the
expression invariably employed by his countrymen in
speaking of the wine of the Passover. On other occasions,
when employing the language of common life, he calls wine
by its ordinary name.7
Moreover, the time of the Passover was in the spring. It was held during the
first month of the Jewish calendar which is in the March/April timeframe today.
The grape harvest was in August or September. This would put Passover just about
six months away from the grape harvest season. One must remember that
pasteurization of grape juice, to keep it from turning into wine, was not invented
until 1869. As soon as grapes are crushed they begin fermenting. It is as though
grapes want to turn to wine. God made grapes so that they naturally contain the
necessary ingredients, sugar and yeast, to turn to wine. Grapes will reach almost
full alcoholic content in only five to ten days. In the first century, the Hebrews did
not have a way to store grape juice or inhibit it from fermenting until Passover."

Here is the article.
Why Did We Change the
Grape Juice to Wine
in the Communion Cup?
A Biblical View of Wine and the Cultural Influences that
Shaped the Church to Change Its Practice of Communion
by
Marion Lovett
http://www.christreformedchurch.org/PDF/WineinCommunion.pdf

Your pastor is correct, however I will add I have no problem using today's grape juice, as it has been pasteurized and contains no yeast. Prior to the 1800's, I would have a problem using grape juice. The wine is symbolic of Christ's blood, pure and free from impurities (yeast). Freshly squeezed grape juice has impurities (yeast). This is the perfect symbolism of salvation, that a perfect sacrifice is needed to atone for sin.

 

[JerryL]

Your pastor is correct, however I will add I have no problem using today's grape juice, as it has been pasteurized and contains no yeast. Prior to the 1800's, I would have a problem using grape juice. The wine is symbolic of Christ's blood, pure and free from impurities (yeast). Freshly squeezed grape juice has impurities (yeast). This is the perfect symbolism of salvation, that a perfect sacrifice is needed to atone for sin.

That wasn't my Pastor that wrote that, my pastor uses grape juice.

 

[webdog]

That wasn't my Pastor that wrote that, my pastor uses grape juice.

Regardless, both are permissable...

 

[Joe]

I'm not interested in a debate on this subject, it has been hashed and rehashed several times. I found this article while studying the subject because I have never felt compfortable using grape juice at Communion. My Church uses it and I guess I will continue, but I still get the willys using it ever since I heard a local Pastor explain it a couple of years ago. I just thought this was an interesting read on how we in America came to start using grape juice at Communion. It is a long read, but worth the time when you can spare some. One interesting note that caught my eye was the first Communion with Jesus. The wine they used had to be close to 6 months old. Before we start some "shoot from the hip responses" read the article first please.
"Our Lord in
instituting the Supper after Passover, availed himself of the
expression invariably employed by his countrymen in
speaking of the wine of the Passover. On other occasions,
when employing the language of common life, he calls wine
by its ordinary name.7
Moreover, the time of the Passover was in the spring. It was held during the
first month of the Jewish calendar which is in the March/April timeframe today.
The grape harvest was in August or September. This would put Passover just about
six months away from the grape harvest season. One must remember that
pasteurization of grape juice, to keep it from turning into wine, was not invented
until 1869. As soon as grapes are crushed they begin fermenting. It is as though
grapes want to turn to wine. God made grapes so that they naturally contain the
necessary ingredients, sugar and yeast, to turn to wine. Grapes will reach almost
full alcoholic content in only five to ten days. In the first century, the Hebrews did
not have a way to store grape juice or inhibit it from fermenting until Passover."

Here is the article.
Why Did We Change the
Grape Juice to Wine
in the Communion Cup?
A Biblical View of Wine and the Cultural Influences that
Shaped the Church to Change Its Practice of Communion
by
Marion Lovett
http://www.christreformedchurch.org/PDF/WineinCommunion.pdf

Hi Jerry

A Lutheran church we attend once in a while uses wine, yet offers grape juice also. The Pastor is a good friend of mine.
They have communion weekly.

We have a few batches of concord grapes growing in our backyard. Right now, they are mostly bare but have some new green leaves on them.

Due to these alcohol threads, I placed these concord grapes in several tupperware containers and dated them. All you get after months is the stinky smell of vinegar. Can't think of any other way to describe it, but there was no alcohol content. Grapes don't automatically begin to ferment as this article states. Or that wasn't the case with my grapes.

 

[annsni]

We use grape juice which is still the juice of the grape. As webdog said, there is no yeast present in our modern grape juice and the fact that we are to not cause a brother or sister to stumble causes us to forgo the liberty to use wine and use grape juice instead. We have a large population of recovering alcoholics (we have support groups for addictions), so it would be a sin to serve them wine as well as it would be against the law to serve wine to minors.

Yes, Jesus used wine - but what kind of wine did He use? Merlot? Zinfandel? Cabernet? What if you use the wrong kind of wine - not the wine He used? What about the bread? Do you use the same yeast He used or do you use modern yeast which may be a different strain?

What is important is the symbolism. We remember Christ's sacrifice on the cross for our sins. Also remember that this was a Passover feast - not just a wine and bread ceremony. If we are going to use it as Jesus did, then we need to do it ALL as He did.