Wine vs. Grapejuice @ Communion

[webdog]

Hi Jerry

A Lutheran church we attend once in a while uses wine, yet offers grape juice also. The Pastor is a good friend of mine.
They have communion weekly.

We have a few batches of concord grapes growing in our backyard. Right now, they are mostly bare but have some new green leaves on them.

Due to these alcohol threads, I placed these concord grapes in several tupperware containers and dated them. All you get after months is the stinky smell of vinegar. Can't think of any other way to describe it, but there was no alcohol content. Grapes don't automatically begin to ferment as this article states. Or that wasn't the case with my grapes.

Your grapes have turned the alcohol into acetic acid...that's why it smells of vinegar.

Did you squeeze the juice, or just put the grapes whole into the container? Did you seal the container allowing no oxygen?

 

[Joe]

We have a large population of recovering alcoholics (we have support groups for addictions), so it would be a sin to serve them wine as well as it would be against the law to serve wine to minors.

I didn't know it was against the law to serve wine in communion to minors. Interesting...

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Yes, Jesus used wine - but what kind of wine did He use? Merlot? Zinfandel? Cabernet?

Boone's Farm Strawberry Hill.

 

[JerryL]

Thanks to all who have posted. The modern grape juice idea that is pasteurized(free of impurities as was Christ) is a great help on my reservations. Thank you.

 

[superwoman8977]

I didn't know it was against the law to serve wine in communion to minors. Interesting...

Its not against the law to serve alcohol for communion because it falls under the part of the law religous observances. Just thought I would point that out.

I personally think communion should be done with wine not grape juice just as Christ did it.

 

[Joe]

Your grapes have turned the alcohol into acetic acid...that's why it smells of vinegar.

Did you squeeze the juice, or just put the grapes whole into the container? Did you seal the container allowing no oxygen?

Sounds about right.

I squeezed them, then threw them in the bowels. Yes, there is no oxygen. Tupperware is pretty expensive (remember those Tupperware parties?) so I imagine it lives up to it's name.

To my understanding, it is possible for them to ferment if the conditions outside were conducive to it. Yet I don't remember what all those conditions are.

 

[Joe]

Its not against the law to serve alcohol for communion because it falls under the part of the law religous observances. Just thought I would point that out.

I personally think communion should be done with wine not grape juice just as Christ did it.

Thanks. I thought I saw many kids taking part in drinking the wine at church. Of course, it's a tiny amount.

 

[webdog]

Sounds about right.

I squeezed them, then threw them in the bowels. Yes, there is no oxygen. Tupperware is pretty expensive (remember those Tupperware parties?) so I imagine it lives up to it's name.

To my understanding, it is possible for them to ferment if the conditions outside were conducive to it. Yet I don't remember what all those conditions are.

Since you sealed them, there would be no airborne yeast for them to ferment properly. That's why it turned into vineger (which if you remember was offered to Christ on the cross...the worst possible wine) If additional yeast were added, they could be sealed and the fermentation would take place the same. From what I understand, it's a fine art to make a good wine, much moreso to make the "best"...which makes Jesus' miracle of making the "best" wine instantaneously remarkable.

 

[Joe]

Since you sealed them, there would be no airborne yeast for them to ferment properly. If additional yeast were added, they could be sealed and the fermentation would take place the same. From what I understand, it's a fine art to make a good wine, much moreso to make the "best"...which makes Jesus' miracle of making the "best" wine instantaneously remarkable.

I imagine that's true. it is a fine art to make the best wine. Folks are pretty particular about their wine.

The birds eat the majority of our grapes, though I have eaten them by the handful too.
They don't seem to like our green grapes as much, not sure what kind of grapes those are. Maybe they make white wine.

 

[Dale-c]

They don't seem to like our green grapes as much, not sure what kind of grapes those are. Maybe they make white wine.

That is what I thought as well but I talked to a wine expert once and he said that white wine is actually just without the skins.
He told me not to buy it because the health benefits I was seeking would only be present in red wine, not white.

 

[Joe]

That is what I thought as well but I talked to a wine expert once and he said that white wine is actually just without the skins.
He told me not to buy it because the health benefits I was seeking would only be present in red wine, not white.

Good to know, thanks

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Just squeezing the grapes and putting them in airtight containers will not keep the juice from turning acidic. One must first boil down the juice to less than half its consistency. IOW, if you have a gallon of juice, boil it until less than half a gallon is left. All fermentating bacteria in grape juice is killed when the temperature reaches 176° Farenheit. Then put the juice in an airtight container. It will keep as fresh as the day it was squeezed for years.

That is only one of the 4 ways recorded in the first century that grape juice was preserved in its non-alcoholic state.

 

[Dale-c]

SFIC, could you cite references for your assertions?
Thanks.

 

[Whowillgo]

We use grape juice which is still the juice of the grape. As webdog said, there is no yeast present in our modern grape juice and the fact that we are to not cause a brother or sister to stumble causes us to forgo the liberty to use wine and use grape juice instead. We have a large population of recovering alcoholics (we have support groups for addictions), so it would be a sin to serve them wine as well as it would be against the law to serve wine to minors.

Yes, Jesus used wine - but what kind of wine did He use? Merlot? Zinfandel? Cabernet? What if you use the wrong kind of wine - not the wine He used? What about the bread? Do you use the same yeast He used or do you use modern yeast which may be a different strain?

What is important is the symbolism. We remember Christ's sacrifice on the cross for our sins. Also remember that this was a Passover feast - not just a wine and bread ceremony. If we are going to use it as Jesus did, then we need to do it ALL as He did.

Amen well said, Paul instructs us in Romans that nothing within itself is wrong but we must give up certain liberties if it can possibly cause others to stumble. Thank the Lord for His precious blood that needs no debate.

 

[convicted1]

RE: Wine vs. Grape Juice @ Communion

Sounds about right.

I squeezed them, then threw them in the bowels. Yes, there is no oxygen. Tupperware is pretty expensive (remember those Tupperware parties?) so I imagine it lives up to it's name.

To my understanding, it is possible for them to ferment if the conditions outside were conducive to it. Yet I don't remember what all those conditions are.

Joe,

You threw them in the "bowels"?? Man that's nasty!! I bet not many come over for a drink, huh? LOL Just kidding, Brother!! No wonder they smelled. LOL Maybe it's not the tupperware that makes the "prrrrfffffffpppp" when you opened the lid!! Man you set yourself up on this one. Please forgive me, my dear Brother!!

Willis

 

[StefanM]

Amen well said, Paul instructs us in Romans that nothing within itself is wrong but we must give up certain liberties if it can possibly cause others to stumble. Thank the Lord for His precious blood that needs no debate.

I can see the other side of the argument, too.

Should we forego the use of bread because some people might be struggling with gluttony through the excessive consumption of carbohydrates?

 

[Whowillgo]

I can see the other side of the argument, too.

Should we forego the use of bread because some people might be struggling with gluttony through the excessive consumption of carbohydrates?

Guess there might be some who are addicted to bread, I have no problem with the church whose Pastor chooses to use wine. I simply don't need to use that liberty to remember Him as the service is meant for. I believe we could use cranberry juice and still "Do it in remembrance of our Lord"

 

[Dale-c]

There is no end to the reasoning that we should not do something just because someone might abuse it.
Why are you all on the internet?
There are people who think the internet is evil.
Using this logic, they may be tempted to use the internet and use inappropriate sites.

Do you have a TV? I know people who are offended by that.

Where does it end?

 

[webdog]

It ends when it hits home

 

[Linda64]

SFIC, could you cite references for your assertions?
Thanks.

Everything SFIC said has previously been cited. Do a search on all the alcohol threads and you will find what you need.