Wis. parents who prayed as diabetic daughter died charged

I think this should read God CAN use doctors but he certianly doesn't need a doctor in order to heal.

So let's look at this from a spiritual perspective, they obviously had faith greater than a mustard seed. In fact their faith went beyond death since they believed God would bring their child back to life. Why did the child die?

If it were the will of God that this child died, would it have made any difference if a doctor did his best?

 

I doubt seriously the child would have died, and I doubt seriously that God desired the child to die. We interfere with the natural death of people all the time with modern medicine. How many of us would still be here if it were not for modern medicine? I would not be here. Just because a person gets sick and dies does not mean it was God's wil. Give Satan some credit.

 

I guess I view life a little differently, I believe we are each born with a set number of days. I believe only God can give or take life? I also believe death can't be cheated. What doctors and modern medicine improve is quality of life but I don't believe they can extend the length.

 

I think your statement migh be true up until the time medicine actually began actually saving people and not killing them. I do not believe we can give God the credit or blame for all deaths or for all whose lives are saved with medicine. If I totally agreed with your statment then I would question why anyone ever goes to see a doctor as the person's life or death would not be in his hands in anyway.

 

Quality of life... Ex. Hypertension is known to cause strokes which could cause paralysis and loss of brain function etc... Controlling your blood pressure reduces the risk.

Diabetes can cause blindness, loss of kidney function, loss of limbs etc...

I don't discard the fact that God has given us medical science and increasingly exposes us to understandings of life. I just believe he alone controls our coming in and going from this world.

 

OK. I believe we differ here. But it is not a crucial issue, though it could be an interesting discussion.

 

I also believe that, but such a belief doesn't lead me to step out in front of fast-moving traffic, deliberately starve myself, jump without a parachute from a high-flying plane, or lace my tea with arsenic. Similarly, it should not lead us to forbid medical treatment to those in our care who are ill. In the case under consideration, the full Associated Press report includes the mother saying that she and her husband "have nothing against doctors", and the father saying that he, or his friends (the report is ambiguous on this), began CPR, a medical intervention:

Dale Neumann, 46, a former police officer, has said he has friends who are doctors and started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.


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The full AP report is online at: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g2S4_VL61HrJgLKWc4HOixPEj4KAD90B5R7G0

In all this, I am reminded about what Jesus said concerning His betrayer, Judas Iscariot, in Luke 22.22:

"And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!" ​

The timing and the method of Christ's death were indeed in God's purpose, but that did not make Judas any less culpable.

 

Indeed!
Thanks for posting that article.
It details enough information that the child had notable symptoms which should have had medical attention. I noticed in the article that the dad was inclined to seek medical attention but was hindered by his wife, mother of the child, who saw this as an opportunity to exercise faith and promote her ministry..... Can we say questions regarding authority and self interest/deception? (In addition to neglect.)

 

I agree completely, I like to say, "For HIS Name sake..." :thumbs:

 

As parents they are reponsable for taking care of their child, seeking medical help when needed. If God wanted this child to die then she would have died on medication. To with hold medication is and a death results should be murder.

 

This issue highlights what I think is a fundamental truth about the Kingdom of God. And it highlights what I think is a widely-held, yet incorrect idea as well.

The fundamental truth is that God is advancing his Kingdom in the present world. It is not something we are waiting for, even though the climactic fulfillment lies in the future. The relevance to this case is that we should see medical advancements as very likely being one manifestation of the progress of that Kingdom. I suggest that this puts some meat on the otherwise "slogan-y" assertion that "God uses medical technology to heal". That is, of course, true. But it is wiser to ground that statement in a context where we understand how this makes sense - with the advent of Jesus, God is "rolling up his sleeves" and beginning a new round of creation. And Jesus has been installed already as lord of this earth and He is advancing His Kingdom even though He has ascended to the Father.

So we can understand the advancement of medical technology as the fruit of God working in this present world.

This way of seeing things counters the tragic error that "technology" is of "this world" and needs to be set against "God's way".

 

This is key as the child never saw a doctor and wasn't diagnosised until autopsy... But her symptoms were significant enough that any caring parent should have seen the physical and mental distress and gotten help....... I mean it wasn't like they were living in the wilds of Africa or South America Jungles waiting for a weekly flight to civiliazation....like missionaries of the 50's.

This is true. God is sovereign.

So, what do you say for withholding a physician's care and diagnosis? The parents are wrong for refusing medical care and attention in time. They refused care...not medication.

 

I was thinking about this. If her symptoms were bad enough she needed prayer and people encouraged them to see a doctor, then they knew there was something wrong with her.

It all equals the same thing, murder.

 

You saying if God wanted her to live he needed doctors and medicine?

You mean like pulling the plug? That is denying someone medical technology.

What about religions like JW whose religion forbids medical interactions? Don't we have freedom of religion? Don't I have the option of a witch doctor who may prescribe chicken feet in a cheese cloth bag worn around my ankles? If I deny my child the bag is it still murder? Is our view the only view allowed to be right?

 

This really isnt all that subjective. Its pretty black and white.

 

That's my point, black and white according to whom? Not the parents and I am sure there are others like them.

That's why I asked, "Is our view the only view allowed to be right"?

 

Well, I for one feel sorry for these parents. They made a horrible decision, based on unsound Biblical doctrine and have lost their young daughter. Now, all this condemnation, and with it, probably the realization of their mistakes, and the shame and guilt. I hope they get righteous justice, mixed with mercy and a measure of peace.

 

Me too, hillclimber.
I feel sadness for these folks in the loss of their daughter. I hope and pray the outcome will be merciful, but fair.

I'm not familiar with juvenile diabetes. I've known some stable diabetics and some that are very fragile. I know hormonal changes as which occur during a pregnacy or birth, or influence of unusual activity or infection can affect control.

A friend of mine almost lost her husband: He was 'controlled' so they both thought, but had had a recent but minor infection. She woke up one morning....normally he was first up: He didn't stir. She woke him to assure that he was okay before she left for work... and strangely, every thing she said to him, he stated back, word for word: She asked him questions, and he diidn't answer: He repeated back the question. He didn't rise: He didn't move. Only verbal response.

She called an ambulance and one of the first things they did was check his sugar: but she already had the info to give them regarding his diabetes health condition... but she was suspecting a stroke from her prior work as a CNA in a hospital, and his v/s (vital signs, pulse, respirations, and blood pressure) were irregular. Between the interaction of meds for his infection, his insulin, and the infection in his body, an inbalance had occurred which endangered his life, even as he slept.

Another friend lost his mother during the night to diabetes: She was 'controlled'. His girlfriend had visited late that evening and all of them were up late and jovially enjoying everyone's company. His g/f left and he kissed his mom 'goodnight'. His father woke to find his wife had died in her sleep and the autopsy gave her diabetes as the reason.

Police have often been confused by the strange behavior of diabetics who are going into inbalance: Mistakes have been made in the belief that a person was drunk and resisting arrest: Some have fortunately received timely medical treatment: Others have unfortunately succumbed to a treatable medical condition, due to the delay in recognition.

Sorry, that I go on so long.... but if this helps to educate even just one person to the seriousness.... and also the brittleness of this condition in some people.... it may save a life.... or encourage those who know a diabetic to get them a bracelet or a 'dog tag' to indicate their health condition should they ever be at the mercy of strangers for their care... and also to be alert that even small changes in a diabetic loved one may signal a change in sugar balance.

 

When you let your obviously sick kid die from an illness that is easily and readily treatable....yes.

No room for relativism here.

 

To me it looked like a case of a weak-willed husband and a strong-willed wife.
According to the article posted by Brother David Lamb the father of the girl was starting to get worried and mentioned taking the girl to a doctor, the mother resisted and said this could just be a "test of faith".

Sounds somewhat like something I read that happened about six thousand years ago in a place called Eden.

That was a painful death.

For those of you who are not familiar with what goes on when one is slipping into a diabetic coma:

1. You feel disoriented. You don't know how you get from one point to the other;

2. If you have other medical issues, like tachycardia or bradycardia, these manifests themselves as well;

3. You get chilly, and break into cold sweats, some stomach cramps, and uneven breathing.

That's just the start of the coma, you're not in the coma yet.

I know. I've been there.

I pity these folks. It was an unnecessary death, and unnecessary pain for them, as well as the daughter.