witchcraft

Actually, Ranburne. Just a hop over the line. I get by the border guards easy, they know me.

Our church is small, way in the backwoods. If you can find it, come see us sometime.

You know, I never really thought of it being called predestination. Before I was saved, someone told me that I believed in fate.
So, there must be something to it.

I believe God has a purpose for all of us, and in order for us to serve that purpose, we must be prepared. Our stubborn human will gets in the way, and God always puts us right where He wants us to be in order to see His purpose for us.

For some people, it doesn't take much. For others, it takes a lot. The Prodigal Son is a good example. It took him eating with the swine to realize where he needed to be.

I pray that this girl does not delve into Wicca. I pray Christine will have the strength to stop her, but if, despite all her efforts, the daughter does step over, she has to have the strength to realize that God's will is being done.
And she needs to stand strong on His Word that she'll make it back.

 

</font>[/QUOTE]What's so confusing about that? You've heard of people being saved after going as low as they can get. Yes, the mother needs to do what she can to keep her daughter away from this, but if it's God's will for her to experience it in order to gain an appreciation of His love and grace, and to gain salvation, it will happen. </font>[/QUOTE]This may not be the worst advice I have ever heard but it is real, real close. There is not the slightest possibility that God wants someone to sin in order to teach them a lesson. It is never and I mean NEVER God's will that we sin. Witchvraft is direct rebellion against God and His ways. God can and often does (as I am sure you meant) use our failings as a "See what happens when you don't listen to me." kind of lesson. If He had His "druthers" He would not approve this plan of action and neither should the mother of a 15 year old girl. Keep her as far away from this evil as you possibly can. You wouldn't let your 4 year old play in the traffic to teach them a lesson so don't do this either.

 

Helen, it's not easy being a parent. But she has to know somethings are not acceptable behavior. A very costly lesson for her.

 

Amen, Brother Artemaeus, Preach It.

God saves us from sin; He does not will us to sin!

 

A quick note and then back to the thread. Bianca had no idea that slip had been turned in with my name forged. A friend of hers admitted doing it so she could have a date. Her friend is now barred from the Prom and Bianca is reinstated. But what an afternoon getting it straightened out amidst screams of "You just don't trust me! It's always my fault isn't it!?! I'm not going to prove myself to ANYone! I'm so sick of this whole thing! I don't care if I go to the Prom. You'd never believe me anyway!"

She's not the sort to discuss something calmly when something like that is at stake...

I don't know about all of you, but for me, this last kid is hands-down the hardest of all of them to get off and running into a reasonable adulthood!

She's also the only one who has wanted to go to Bible college.

go figure....

I'm exhausted just from being her mom!

Back to the more serious -- MUCH more serious -- problem of a young lady who is experimenting with Wicca...

 

Sometimes we are so worried about stepping on our children's toes...we walk completely around them, and in the process they end up walking all over ours.

Stop this nonsense. You are in charge. Stop letting her be in charge of the situation. As I see it...Now please don't get mad...you asked for opinions....You are suppose to be the parent. Not her buddy...She is in control of the whole thing right now. And you are letting her. And the more you tippy toe around it...you are letting it get deeper. You need to get a hold of the situation.

1.) This is not how we worship. Jesus Christ is Lord! God created everything. We were created for his pleasure and purpose. Anything else than this is wrong!

2.) No more computer! No more saying, "I am going to put my foot down....put it down. Unplug it. Turn the internet off!

3.) I will know everywhere you go, and who you go with. We have rules in this house, and this is one of them.

4.) We do not hang around with those who believe contrary to rule #1. If it is the friends...get a new set!

If she gets by with this....whats next? And it has nothing to do with worshiping right now. It has everything to do with shocking you, and keeping you in check.

And guess what....you are in check!

You are afraid she might rebel against you if you act on it. Well guess what...she already is rebellious.


Don't mean to be harsh....and people have given you wonderful advice. But everything I told you, is the truth from lifes experiences.

Take control! She just might hate you now, but she will love you later!

Sherrie

 

Amen, Brother Artemaeus, Preach It.

God saves us from sin; He does not will us to sin! </font>[/QUOTE]Since when is it bad advice to tell someone to trust God?

I can see now that it's not that you don't understand what I'm saying -- you don't want to understand it. The truth is not all roses and butterflies. Sometimes it's ugly.

I don't think the analogy about the 4 year old in traffic was necessary.

I never said God wants her to sin. But He will allow it to happen if it's the only way to convince her that she needs Him.

Have you not ever heard a testimony of a former alcoholic or drug addict? How far down they had to go before the looked up?
I'm saying it could happen. Read my previous posts again, don't just scan over them looking for something to bust my chops over.

I pray it doesn't happen. I pray she gets saved before she goes through any of that.

But ,if it does, Christine must trust God to do His will with her, and to keep being there for her. And don't give up.

[ April 30, 2003, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: wizofoz ]

 

Wizofoz, I am sorry if you think my objective was to "bust your chops". My objective (perhaps poorly executed) was to comment on the notion that it could possibly be God's will that someone sin. It isn't bad advice to tell someone to trust God. It is bad advice to tell someone that this may be God's will.

I think the analogy was necessary. In both situations you have a child doing something irresponsible and dangerous and it is the objective of the person in charge of them to keep them our of harms way. Of course, you can't always succeed and God can use the poor results of that outcome for His glory. But, and I think this is the distinction between what you are saying and what I am saying, it is never God's will that we engage in sin in order to learn from that mistake. God certainly can pick up the pieces and work it out for our good but that is because He is a master craftsman not because He would rather work with the pieces.

Getting drunk and taking drugs could never be a part of God's will. He can pick you up from the bottom of the cliff but falling wasn't his will.

 

Helen, Praise the Lord. I was hoping that it was not Bianco's fault.

I guess I had better clarify my stand as perhaps, Wiz, you may have misunderstood.

I trust God completely. I am not disagreeing about trusting God. Yes, He saves the alcoholic, He saves all sinners, and yes I have been accused of being a "Pollyanna"

I believe in stopping trouble before it starts if at all possible.

Sherrie, I agree with you. Christine needs to take a firm stand.

May I suggest that Christine sit down and talk very calmly with her daughter about this (if this is possible) and explain to her why it is wrong, and explain to her what she is going to do if her daughter continues in this manner and that she is going it because she loves her, not to be mean, etc.

I discovered in rearing my children, especially teens, that if I explained the reason, explained the consequences, that they were appreciative that their Mother and Father cared about them to keep them out of harms way.

We are praying for you and your daughter Christine. We pray that these prayers will be answered as the ones we lifted up for Helen and her daughter.

Please keep us updated on this.

 

Another thought: Many times, my children wanted me to take a stand and say "no", so that they could tell their friends, "My Mother won't let me do it." That was easier at times for them than just saying "no". They knew it was wrong, but sometimes had a difficult time telling friends that.

 

By the way, Wiz, Do you take your child to the doctor when he is sick?

 

Thankful, you have brought up an excellent point. It can be VERY hard to say 'no', especially when you have already allowed yourself to get involved in something. Kids really do depend on adult strength, even though they would often rather die than admit it!

Sherrie, a double amen to your post. I hope Christine reads it carefully and fully.

And as far as trusting God with your child, that is fine. But He did not give that parent that child for nothing. We are told in the Bible to discipline our children, and to train them up in the way they should go. And it's NOT easy. But it is vital. We are accountable to God for the way we raise our children. We are not accountable when, as adults, they rebel anyway, but when they rebel as children and teens, we had better be willing to hold the line and hold it tight. Not only for love of the child, but because of our accountability as parents.

Parenting (like growing old, I have found out!), is not for the faint of heart!

Christine, you love your daughter? OK, now go save her from herself while she is under your roof. Computers are NOT necessary forms of entertainment. If she needs to do schoolwork on one, stay in the room and read or sew or whatever, but do not leave her alone with the computer. (Unplugging from the internet is not always an option when the need for references and such comes up). If she has a computer in her room, remove it to a family area -- even the kitchen. It doesn't matter how much she hollers and yells and threatens!

There was a time with one of my daughters when I had to sleep on the floor of her room at night to make sure she didn't sneak out of the house. She hated me then with a passion that sometimes made me nervous. She is doing wonderfully well today, however! And I didn't get stomped on or killed or anything!

These are hard times. We have to be tough parents where caring is concerned.

 

I just want to point out that isolation from friends or the internet will not solve the problem of someone dabbling in the occult. Unlike most other false religions you can practice wicca/witchcraft in isolation.

The person who is dabbling in occultism has to make up their own mind that they are finished with it – and unfortunately it is not easy to leave because of the spiritual forces that seduce/influence/harass former practitioners.

Again, I stress that parents should not overreact and drive their children into rebellion by misunderstanding this very serious situation. Communication is the key to leading someone out of this spiritual quicksand. Parents may need to take commonsense measures to remove undue influences (including the removal of occult materials in the home and restriction of unsupervised activities if the child has demonstated that they cannot be trusted).

But prayer and the manifest power of God is your primary and most effective tool against the influence of wicca in your household.

Here’s a prayer I suggest you pray: Ask God to prevent any of the wiccan magic from working for your daughter. If your daughter cannot gain any power, wicca is pretty much useless.

 

BB, I appreciate your thoughts, but I have to respectfully disagree. Allowing the occult into one's home is not what a Christian should do at all. With one especially difficult child I informed her that her room was no longer her private affair as she had abused that privilege and that it was subject to my inspection when I felt like it.

Dobson would no doubt string me up, but it kept her safe from herself.

In this case, however, it also probably prevented the house from burning down...

The home, and the room, too, does NOT belong to the teenager. It belongs to the parents, who are responsible. When a child has shown that he or she can handle privacy in terms of a room being off-limits to parents (for the most part), then that's fine. When that privilege (and it IS a privilege, not a right! -- at least in this house -- ) is abused, it is removed at least temporarily.

Lest you think I am too much of an ogre, I might add that with my youngest artistic daughter, I got so upset with her carving designs into window sills, the back deck, my nightstand (when she was in bed sick in my room) and such, that I finally stripped the wallpaper off her walls, painted them flat white, and told her, "OK, this room is YOURS to decorate. I'll sand-blast it when you are gone. But let one bit of your art out of this room and you are in for big trouble, young lady!"

Her friends are terribly jealous of her because I have allowed her to put puff paints on the walls, write Bible verses and bits of poetry and thoughts all over them, have her friends sign the walls, allowed her to string Christmas tree lights permanently across the ceiling, have not flinched at a small stuffed animal dangling from the ceiling, notes she writes to herself on her mirror in lipstick....

As long as it's kept in that room and its not offensive.

Find your line with your child and hold it. That kid is depending on you to find out what good parenting is all about. Allowing the occult into the house is NOT good parenting!

 

This child was just following along and 'game playing' with her friends, not really a practicing wiccan from what I understood. Removing the temptation and the 'fun' will stop the activity. If her friends had been collecting baseball cards, she'd be into baseball cards. Peer pressure is a dangerous thing. Removing the peer pressure will work wonders.

Sherrie hit the nail on the head with her reply! Mom needs to stop all this activity now, popular or not! Be the mommy not the buddy!

Also, Christine... No Sabrina Teenage Witch, Angel, Smallville, Miracles or whatever other shows are about the occult! No movies about the occult and check her CD's and Playstation games. Out of sight, out of mind.

Diane

 

Way to go Helen!

Dobson has that book out about boys.... which implies that men are just grown up little boys and they can't help the way they are???? Baloney!

What about the fruits of the Spirit? Self-Control does not come with a male disclaimer in MY Bible!

Diane

 

Christine,

I'm definately praying for you for wisdom. I remember when I found out my 16 year old daughter was pregnant. I was so afraid of doing the wrong thing and making the wrong decisions that would only make her rebel more and possibly run away with this guy she was with. I literally prayed for wisdom before saying anything to her. It hasn't been an easy road, but God was glorified in it.
I know your heart is also breaking over all this and that God knows your heart. Keep your eyes on Jesus and know we are praying for you!

God Bless!
Becky

 

Looking back over my previous post I noticed a poorly structured sentence that probably spawned some confusion:

What I meant, broken down into separate sentences:

1.) Parents may need to take measure to remove undue influences from the home.
2.) This would include the removal of occult materials in the home.
3.) This may also include the restriction of unsupervised activities if the child has demonstrated that they cannot be trusted. (Dishonesty or participation in wiccan rites would be included.)

For the record, like some of you, I have some experience working with teens who are involved in occultism. I've seen the successful results of prayer and gentle coaxing, I've seen successful results from much more aggressive tactics, I've seen very unsuccessful results from parents and religious leaders overreacting.

Whenever one is dealing with occult spiritual forces it is easy to overreact instead of taking a stand with God and working and praying through the situation.

 

Helen...I have to agree with you.

And let me also say as a parent, we will not always be Ward Clever! But, "Yes I will explain to you why this is wrong" to my child, is correct.....and then I will stand firm in my decission! I am not going to sugar coat my decission. Plain and simple. This is how it is!

I have 5 kids. Ranging from 32 to 15...and I also raise my granddaughter who is in 1 month going to be 15. I have been through many a rough road, as well as many a smooth road. One thing I learned from them all...you cannot just be their friend. You cannot let them be in charge. All the child rearing books, good advice, parenting classes, parenting help, in the world will not help you, until you first take control of the situation!

I had (girls are the worse) 2 girls say to me "your mean! You just don't want me to have friends! You hate me! I hate you!" One is 30...and the other is 23. everyday they call me and the last thing they say each day to me is "I love you mom." And I went some rocky roads with these girls.

God Bless
Always
Sherrie

 

Maybe, maybe not. Teenagers are secretive anyway and teens dabbling in the occult are the usually the most secretive of all. If parents detect this activity it is important that they take it very seriously. There are real spiritual forces at play here.

It might. But parents need to be careful how they handle it. There will always been people to lead her back. (Remember that the evil one pursues his victims.) Furthermore, the teens that parents often perceive as the “good church kids” may be worse than the unsaved kids in public school as far as discipline, sinful lifestyles and occultism goes.

My youth group was more sexually active than the kids at school and the drug/alcohol situation was about the same – and that was about 20-25 years ago! Yet we all sang in the choir together and were perceived to be great Christian kids by the adults in the church.