With regard to justification

[Gup20]

Gup brings up Ps 53 as if though it was a universal statement of the sinfulness of all men. He apparently uses it as a proof text in support of original sin. The question is, is it?

Lets not get ahead of ourselves here HP. I didn't say anything about Original Sin, and I think my idea of original sin may be different from yours.

Rather than being a proof text, the way I used Ps 53 is exactly the same way the apostle Paul uses it:

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
​

The "as it is written" that Paul uses here is Ps 53.

Let me ask you Gup, who were the generation of the righteous the author of the Psalm spoke about? If all are gone astray, all are corrupt and none that doeth good in some universal sense, what is this about the ‘generation of the righteous?’

The generation of faith. By contrast we see that those without faith are the wicked generation:

Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
​

Here again it is obvious to me those supporting the Augustinian dogma of original sin are more interested in finding a proof text to support their presupposition of original sin than honestly trying to discern the context in which it is written and the true sentiments being expressed by the author. Every verse they light on is automatically made to walk on all four legs to the drumbeat of original sin in spite of the context to the contrary.

I think Agnus_Dei has given the best definition of "Original Sin"... the one I've seen that I agree with most. The Original Sin was the first sin of Adam. While all of mankind bears the consequences for that first sin, we do not bear the guilt of that first sin.

 

[Gup20]

In the case above - you have to have already come to faith - to have done the good that is listed there.

In Matt 7 it is not the evil tree that "does good and then becomes a good tree". It is the good tree that does good -- and the evil tree does bad.

First comes the New Birth - born again "All things become new" 2Cor 5 so that the saint walk from then on by faith not by sight.

For the evil - or the bad tree - there is only one choice -- choose you this day whom you will serve. Respond to the John 12:32 supernatural "drawing of ALL" .

in Christ,

Bob

I agree with Bob.

(Good to see you again.)

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Ok - all except Jesus.

Just like John 12:32 "I will draw all unto Me".

HP: Hello again BR!

OK, I’ll accept the first part. What bugs me is those so ready to corner one about all being all take exception to all being all………such as when I point out that we are cleansed from ALL unrighteousness, yet they desire to remain sinners.

Now for John 12:32. All does not mean all will be drawn. It is a conditional statement that starts with the words: “And I, IF I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” Men must lift him up by preaching and teaching the Word. You cannot be drawn without hearing the Word, and you cannot hear without a preacher. Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

This is just where we left off months ago, was it not? :wavey:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: In your view - is that proclivity to sin that is in ALL as you say - what Paul describes in Romans 3 with his statements on "None righteous no not one"??

HP: No, all in this dispensation (for that is who is being addressed) have sinned. All (i.e., all moral agents) have yielded to the proclivity to sin they were born with and became guilty before God. One does not become unrighteous until one sins. Paul is simply making the remark that all that are moral agents have sinned and become guilty before God.

Righteousness is a moral word therefore only applies to moral agents.

 

[Alive in Christ]

ThinkingStuff...

"HP is speaking of regenerate man guided by the Holy Spirit. Apples and organges."

Whether the man in question is saved or not, he is supremely decieved if he thinks he is living completely sanctified, and completely "holy" in all his way. Satan has blinded him in a huge way.

There is not one born again person who has ever lived on this earth who can say that he or she has attained that status.

None.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ja, gern!

Justification used to be my favourite subject of study when I was young. I soon discovered many masterful treatises on the subject by men also experienced in justification, I simply immersed myself in the ocean of knowledge available. Buchanan is first to come to mind. Of course virtually all the Puritans, Spurgeon, the Reformers --- They were every one of them God-fearing men of true knowledge, intellect and integrity who believed in justification by faith ALONE.

Strange then is it that I only very late in life discovered that just like the Scriptures teaches justification as a 'forensic' truth in Christ, it teaches 'sanctification' as a 'forensic' truth in Christ. That made things much clearer to my own mind about the 'doctrine' of justification by faith alone, and made me realise, the consoling and reassuring truth of the Scriptures' doctrine of sanctifation by faith in Christ alone --- even of sanctification through Him without the works of the Law! Praise God, because the Bible says no one shall see God without sanctification.

It means but one thing: We in Christ and through Christ, are 'ready' -'good enough' - for the eternal life of God's eternal salvation. NEVER in ourselves or by any 'holy' works of our own.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Alive in Christ: Whether the man in question is saved or not, he is supremely decieved if he thinks he is living completely sanctified, and completely "holy" in all his way. Satan has blinded him in a huge way.

HP: Who art thou to judge another man’s servant? Paul, for one, was a shining example of one who lived a sanctified life. I believe there have been many that have lived such lives before the Lord. I have seen sanctification lived before my eyes. If you have not I can see why you would speak as you do.

Alive in Christ: There is not one born again person who has ever lived on this earth who can say that he or she has attained that status.

HP: 1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Be careful that you are not found despising the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of His children whose hearts are set on God.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Your post is so long one doesn't know what to answer.

You talked about "Seems that if God declares something it is made so. Look at creation" Of course it's true! No sooner does it bring you to the so 'outdated' divine truth of Election. Whom God from before the creation of the world elected for His own pleasure, He before they were even born, justified by the merit of His own willing and good pleasure's satisfaction. Jesus Christ only. That's why people who reject election and the sovereignty of God also reject justification by faith alone.

 

[Alive in Christ]

HP...

"Who art thou to judge another man’s servant?"

I am being nobodies "judge". I am simply speaking the universal truth that every christian walking on earth, and who has ever walked on earth, is a "work in progress", and will be until the moment they enter heaven. THEN they...finally...attain perfect holiness and sanctification.

"Paul, for one, was a shining example of one who lived a sanctified life."

He referred to himself as the "chief of sinners"...AFTER being born again.

"I believe there have been many that have lived such lives before the Lord."

NONE have attained complete sanctification and/or complete holiness in this life. NONE.

From the scriptures...

"There is none rightious, no not one"

"I have seen sanctification lived before my eyes."

And you can inspect this mans heart, to see what goes on in there? You have acess to his inner thoughts, meditations, motivations and reasonings?

God sees all of that.

And ALL of us come up short while here on earth.

From the scriptures...

"Man looks on the outside, but God sees the heart"

"If you have not I can see why you would speak as you do.

I speak as I do because I know the scriptures, and what they testify concerning mankind, and our condition.

"1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:"

Nothing there about reaching total sanctification, and perfect "holiness", as you claimed about the man you refered to.

"4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;"

We all are to be about the buisiness of growing in grace. But we will NEVER achieve complete purity in this life.

To those who claim they have, God says...

"There in none rightious, no...not...one"

"5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit."

Again, all of us will be "growing in grace" for the rest of our natural lives. But we will never achieve complete sanctification and holiness, as your friend claims.

"Be careful that you are not found despising the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of His children whose hearts are set on God."

The Holy Spirit has been working and guiding me in my life since the month of February of 1982. I in no way do I depise His working in my life. I love His working in my life very much.

And one day I will attain 100% sanctification.

When I am translated and pass on into the presence of God.

And not until then.


:godisgood:

 

[Tom Butler]

Paul, for one, was a shining example of one who lived a sanctified life.

Well, yes, but not sinless. Paul's earnest desire was to live totally for Christ, but spent the entire 7th chapter of Romans lamenting the fact that he didn't, and couldn't.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim)
Paul, for one, was a shining example of one who lived a sanctified life.

Tom Butler: Well, yes, but not sinless. Paul's earnest desire was to live totally for Christ, but spent the entire 7th chapter of Romans lamenting the fact that he didn't, and couldn't.

HP: You clearly misunderstand Romans 7. Paul was not nor could he have been speaking of his life as a believer, but rather was addressing the bondage to the law he had before he came to Christ. It is sheer folly to say that Romans 7 was an accurate picture of his walk as a believer. Read Chapters 6 and 8 to see the victory over sin the life of the believer should have. Try vainly as one wills to make it so, Romans chapter 7 is no picture of the walk of a believer, let alone the walk of a sanctified believer.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Romans 1:5 states:

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit[a] of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.

As someone once said to me “that obedience and faith are two sides of the same coin” which is interestingly at the end of the same book here

but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him—

Now Romans 1:16-17

16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[a] just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith.

Paul in this is effectively arguing against the Judaizers. Who were reliant on their righteousness being caused by obedience to certain obligations such as circumcision. And that these obligations were necessary for salvation. Paul calls this type of observance the “works of the Law” but emphasizes the need for the “righteousness of faith” In this chapter Paul lays aside the argument that one needs to be a Jew for salvation as he states in Romans 2:29

29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

But note that Paul doesn’t end there he continues with Romans 1:18-32

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Which can be summed up that even the Gentiles are without excuse with their wickedness and that the Jews are no better because God actually gave them the law and they failed to obey it. Here is where things become a little off from most of what I hear here:

5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism… For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Paul emphasizes doing good. Which is done by obedience. Jews are proud of their law but don’t obey it Romans 2:23 and what is required for gentiles is written in their hearts Romans 2:15. Paul is ultimately saying both Jew and Gentile are on the same page. There is no discrimination. Which I see where Romans 2:26-29 going. And the often quoted Romans 3:27-30 is following the same argument

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

So later with Pauls argument using Abraham you have to wonder how is it if Justification is a one time event that Abraham was Justified in Genesis 15 when he already had a relationship with God in Genesis 12? Unless Paul is going somewhere else with it. Note that Hebrews 11:8 says:

8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

Which was the Genesis 12 event not 15. In Romans 4:13 it says

16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all

How is the Father of us all? Well Romans 4:19-21 says

19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.

I guess we are justified by the same faith and that like him we should expect to persevere. Which makes this verse more applicable:

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we[c] also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

I would like to emphasize as I think Paul did Justified through Faith; How we Stand; and rejoice in our sufferings.
Anyway some further thoughts with regard to this.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Good post, Thinkin' :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

Quote:
HP: You clearly misunderstand Romans 7. Paul was not nor could he have been speaking of his life as a believer, but rather was addressing the bondage to the law he had before he came to Christ. It is sheer folly to say that Romans 7 was an accurate picture of his walk as a believer. Read Chapters 6 and 8 to see the victory over sin the life of the believer should have. Try vainly as one wills to make it so, Romans chapter 7 is no picture of the walk of a believer, let alone the walk of a sanctified believer.

Yes, go back to chapter 6 and 8, as you should. Paul was clearly talking to believers. Why would he revert back to unbelievers? He doesn't. He continues his discourse speaking to believers in chapter 7 as well. The chapter is the great struggle that the old nature (the sin nature inherited from birth) has with the new nature (gained at the time of salvation). This struggle will continue as long as the believer lives on this earth. Satan will see to it. Our old nature will see to it. And John verifies it.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Tom Butler]

DHK, may I add to your post by pointing out that Paul writes the entire 7th chapter int he present tense.

That which I do I allow not, but what I hate, I do.

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in my.

The good that I would I do not; but the evil that I would not, I do.

Present tense. Paul is writing about what's happening as he writes.

 

[Alive in Christ]

"DHK, may I add to your post by pointing out that Paul writes the entire 7th chapter int he present tense.

That which I do I allow not, but what I hate, I do.

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in my.

The good that I would I do not; but the evil that I would not, I do.

Present tense. Paul is writing about what's happening as he writes."

Which of course confirms the point I have been making.

NOBODY is capable of complete sanctification and holiness in this life. Only a ridiculously decieved person could make such a claim.

 

[Gup20]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim)
Paul, for one, was a shining example of one who lived a sanctified life.

HP: You clearly misunderstand Romans 7. Paul was not nor could he have been speaking of his life as a believer, but rather was addressing the bondage to the law he had before he came to Christ. It is sheer folly to say that Romans 7 was an accurate picture of his walk as a believer. Read Chapters 6 and 8 to see the victory over sin the life of the believer should have. Try vainly as one wills to make it so, Romans chapter 7 is no picture of the walk of a believer, let alone the walk of a sanctified believer.

I disagree. I agree with TB and DHK that Rom 7 shows what "walking in the flesh" is compared to "walking in the spirit". Rom 8 says sin is condemned to our flesh. Basically, it is banished to our flesh. So while Paul's spirit lives in newness of life, he doesn't always do what he ought to do.

Keep in mind the scripture that says it is no longer us who lives, but Christ in us. Paul uses this same analogy for his flesh saying it is no longer him, but sin in his flesh that works evil.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.