Without Me You Can Do Nothing

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

If anyone is interested in reading about another man so enamored with the early Christian fathers as Bound seems to be, there is a book out there just for you. It is entitled “Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up” by David W. Bercot. I find that he drinks at the same wrong fountain as Bound seems to be drinking from.

 

[bound]

If anyone is interested in reading about another man so enamored with the early Christian fathers as Bound seems to be, there is a book out there just for you. It is entitled “Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up” by David W. Bercot. I find that he drinks at the same wrong fountain as Bound seems to be drinking from.

Yeah, it's a real shame I'm well read on Church History... oooo spooky spooky!!!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Bound: Yeah, it's a real shame I'm well read on Church History... oooo spooky spooky!!!

HP: No Bound, I do not see you as ‘spooky’ in the least. I simply believe you are just placing too much emphasis on the writings of men on the basis of when they lived and wrote. Scripture is of no private interpretation, not even theirs.

Try addressing the issues from Scripture as you admonish me, and reason which I have tried to with you. God has given us an intellect to think with. Certainly we can learn from men of every age, but in the end all must stand the muster of the Scriptures in light of God-given intuitive wisdom and enlightenment of the Holy Spirit and conscience.

 

[bound]

HP: No Bound, I do not see you as ‘spooky’ in the least. I simply believe you are just placing too much emphasis on the writings of men on the basis of when they lived and wrote. Scripture is of no private interpretation, not even theirs.

That is why one should seek consensus... We shouldn't be overly influenced by any 'one' individual but in the overall consensus of Church History.

Try addressing the issues from Scripture as you admonish me, and reason which I have tried to with you. God has given us an intellect to think with. Certainly we can learn from men of every age, but in the end all must stand the muster of the Scriptures in light of God-given intuitive wisdom and enlightenment of the Holy Spirit and conscience.

Be clear that I used Church Fathers primarily because you attempted to establish a false contradiction between Augustine and the rest of the Church Fathers while championing Pelagius. This is very popular right now with many and I find it disingenuous for those whom know better and wreckless for those who don't. The thrust of your arguments in all of these threads is primarily philosophical and not Biblical so I felt the best means of liberating you from this philosophical view was to show that it was not one held by the consensus of Christian History. No amount of exegesis would have disarmed you of this view as it itself is a exegesis to interpret the Scriptures. It is my firm opinion that no one would misinterpret 'Grace' in the way Pelagius did without having a non-Biblical presupposition first and foremost. Grace is not a necessary element of mortal life. It is a gift of favor applied to life by God. A good example was God's Covenant with the people of Israel. Other peoples simply didn't have God's Favor and yet they were allowed to exist not by God's Favor but because of God's Will to work out His Providence for the good of His Creation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Bound: Be clear that I used Church Fathers primarily because you attempted to establish a false contradiction between Augustine and the rest of the Church Fathers while championing Pelagius.

HP: When have I ever been “championing Pelagius?” That is news to me.

Bound: It is my firm opinion that no one would misinterpret 'Grace' in the way Pelagius did without having a non-Biblical presupposition first and foremost.

HP: I have still not read one quote that you have of Pelagius on his view of grace. Do you have one in mind or did I miss one?

Bound: Grace is not a necessary element of mortal life. It is a gift of favor applied to life by God.

HP: What have you done to merit even mortal life? Is not even our physical existence a gift of favor applied to us by God?

Bound; A good example was God's Covenant with the people of Israel. Other peoples simply didn't have God's Favor and yet they were allowed to exist not by God's Favor but because of God's Will to work out His Providence for the good of His Creation.

HP: The very fact that God did not continue to always annihilate the wicked and allowed them many times to reap benefits, both physically and spiritually, is evidence to me of God’s grace, yes even to the heathen. Legion are the examples. I will simply start with Adam and Eve as God graciously crafted for them garments and gave them their children, and provided for them even after removal from the garden, although assuredly in a different manner. It was grace that protected Cain even after he slew Abel. One could write a whole book just on the grace God showed to sinful man outside of the covenant with Abraham. God is a God full of grace and truth, showing grace to Rehab and Ruth……………and then one day he reached down into the bottom of the barrel and saved an old sinner like me! Oh th grace God showed my mortal life on more than one occasion when my life should have been snuffed out in a split second! Oh yes Bound, God’s grace reaches down even to the mortal life we now exist in and grants to that mortal life favor upon favor! Certainly there is grace bestowed upon us far above the realm of the mortal, but it still reaches down into that mortal realm.

Bound, don’t you pray for God’s safety? That is pretty mortal I would think, and if God does protect us, it is indeed grace upon grace!