Witnessing to Catholics

[evangelist6589]

Okay those that know more about Catholicism than me how should I respond to this Catholic? I am trying to witness to her via email. Should I use the 10 commandments to bring about conviction? From past experience the Catholic will admit to have broken God's law so the Ray Comfort formula will not work the way he thinks it does in his books.

----
John,

I can see you have good intentions, and so I thank you for that. The truth is, there is a lot of misinformation out there about the Catholic Church. It is an unfortunate reality that people leave the Church or are still a part of it, but never understood what we believe...it is perhaps our fault that our members are under-catechized. That was also my situation at one point, until I decided to study Catholic beliefs and doctrine on my own. Some of your sources could very well be from those that never understood. I meet them all the time. It's why I tend to be suspicious of outside sources.

We do not believe we are saved by our works. That is a common myth about us. There is nothing in the bible that would support that belief. We do place a heavy emphasis on works, but the faith must be there first. There is plenty in the bible about this: James 2: 14-26, Romans 12: 6-8, I Corinthians 12: 27-31, 2 Corinthians 9: 8, 11-15. I could list more, but you hopefully get the idea.
In Ephesians 2: 8-10: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them." So any works are an expression of our faith, not separate from it.

You can ask any Catholic priest and he will confirm this. It is also described in the Catholic Catechism, the book of Catholic instruction used to teach new Catholics who are initiated into our church. It can be found easily enough online for anyone to read...here is a link to the sections of the Catechism that speak directly about Justification:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText (This page is the first of four pages in the section - the next are about Grace, Merit, and Christian Holiness).

The part where we differ is that Catholics believe it's possible for someone to turn away from God through sin, because God gives us free will. We are justified by grace through faith, and that's why we are saved, but we still have a duty as Christians to live in righteousness (made possible by His gift to us). We are cleansed of original sin through the sacrament of baptism, and we have the Holy Spirit to guide us in knowing right from wrong, but we can still be tempted to sin, and sin separates us from God and the Church. It is why we believe in the sacrament of Reconciliation to cleanse us from sins we continue to commit, and why we believe in the graces obtained through the other sacraments to help keep us on the right path.

We do not worship Mary. We believe in veneration of the saints and of Mary, but that is not the same as worship. No one is equal to God. She is, however, special to us as the Mother of Jesus, and of her willingness to say yes to her calling. Since we believe in the Holy Trinity, and that Jesus is our Lord, then by extension, we also refer to her as the Mother of God, and therefore our Mother in heaven. We also believe that as we can call to Jesus in heaven in prayer, we can also ask others in heaven (including Mary) to pray for us and in fact, every prayer to Mary or the saints is simply that (to pray for us). We use the story of the wedding at Cana as one example of this (in John 2: 1-12)...she was the one who told Jesus that they were out of wine and then told everyone else to do what Jesus says. I realize this is a concept non-Catholics would find foreign and not agree with it...but it is not worship as many people think it is.

You mention that people need to repent of sin and have a personal relationship with Christ. There is nothing about what we believe or practice that is contradictory to this.

Becky

 

[Steven Yeadon]

She made it about the reasonableness of her dogma and catechism compared to the teachings of the bible.

You have to at least dethrone the writers of the catechism as using their own opinion and a "spiritual reading" to create a system of belief that goes well beyond the bible. Why should we listen to mainly a few men, the doctors of the church? Why not have everyone study their bibles and let the anointing of the Spirit of Jesus guide us into all truth (1 John 2:27)?

She has done what Catholic friends I have preached to invariably do when witnessed to: The bible vs Catholic Dogma is a lie to them. Catholic Dogma is the only way to approach God and His truth to them. Therefore she will never read the bible in a way that makes any sense to the bible as written. That seems to be one part of this. I'll think on more and do some research.

I ask for those who are much better versed in Catholicism to help me out by adding to this.

 

[agedman]

Remember the Lord’s statement:
"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.”

It matters little from what background, if the person is unresponsive or resistant to the Gospel, move along.

It is of very little value to attempt to present to any who do not respond to the Scriptures and the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[JonC]

Okay those that know more about Catholicism than me how should I respond to this Catholic? I am trying to witness to her via email. Should I use the 10 commandments to bring about conviction? From past experience the Catholic will admit to have broken God's law so the Ray Comfort formula will not work the way he thinks it does in his books.

----
John,

I can see you have good intentions, and so I thank you for that. The truth is, there is a lot of misinformation out there about the Catholic Church. It is an unfortunate reality that people leave the Church or are still a part of it, but never understood what we believe...it is perhaps our fault that our members are under-catechized. That was also my situation at one point, until I decided to study Catholic beliefs and doctrine on my own. Some of your sources could very well be from those that never understood. I meet them all the time. It's why I tend to be suspicious of outside sources.

We do not believe we are saved by our works. That is a common myth about us. There is nothing in the bible that would support that belief. We do place a heavy emphasis on works, but the faith must be there first. There is plenty in the bible about this: James 2: 14-26, Romans 12: 6-8, I Corinthians 12: 27-31, 2 Corinthians 9: 8, 11-15. I could list more, but you hopefully get the idea.
In Ephesians 2: 8-10: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them." So any works are an expression of our faith, not separate from it.

You can ask any Catholic priest and he will confirm this. It is also described in the Catholic Catechism, the book of Catholic instruction used to teach new Catholics who are initiated into our church. It can be found easily enough online for anyone to read...here is a link to the sections of the Catechism that speak directly about Justification:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText (This page is the first of four pages in the section - the next are about Grace, Merit, and Christian Holiness).

The part where we differ is that Catholics believe it's possible for someone to turn away from God through sin, because God gives us free will. We are justified by grace through faith, and that's why we are saved, but we still have a duty as Christians to live in righteousness (made possible by His gift to us). We are cleansed of original sin through the sacrament of baptism, and we have the Holy Spirit to guide us in knowing right from wrong, but we can still be tempted to sin, and sin separates us from God and the Church. It is why we believe in the sacrament of Reconciliation to cleanse us from sins we continue to commit, and why we believe in the graces obtained through the other sacraments to help keep us on the right path.

We do not worship Mary. We believe in veneration of the saints and of Mary, but that is not the same as worship. No one is equal to God. She is, however, special to us as the Mother of Jesus, and of her willingness to say yes to her calling. Since we believe in the Holy Trinity, and that Jesus is our Lord, then by extension, we also refer to her as the Mother of God, and therefore our Mother in heaven. We also believe that as we can call to Jesus in heaven in prayer, we can also ask others in heaven (including Mary) to pray for us and in fact, every prayer to Mary or the saints is simply that (to pray for us). We use the story of the wedding at Cana as one example of this (in John 2: 1-12)...she was the one who told Jesus that they were out of wine and then told everyone else to do what Jesus says. I realize this is a concept non-Catholics would find foreign and not agree with it...but it is not worship as many people think it is.

You mention that people need to repent of sin and have a personal relationship with Christ. There is nothing about what we believe or practice that is contradictory to this.

Becky

Becky capitalizes on a very real problem. Too often well meaning Christians are misinformed and address false religions inappropriately. Th is is where you would most likely fit in.

No, you should not use the Law to convict Becky. If Scripture is true (and it is) then even the atheist knows they have broken God's law....however they come to think of it. Paul tells us our consciences testify to this. If you continue dialogue, you should use the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Do what Jesus would do and reach out in love (appropriately). Do what Paul would do and seek to be the friend she needs to win her to Christ.

You face a few hurdles at the start. First, if she is a friend and knows about your divorce you would be disqualified just on that account. It is difficult to be a witness of Christ when the one to whom you speak views you as living worldly (like your wife viewed your drinking). Second, Becky is not justifying the Catholic position as much as explaining the Catholic doctrine itself. While I would agree that the religion worships Mary in practice, the doctrine technically views Mary as another saint (in terms of praying to Mary). This is, of course, a problem - but one you can't tackle without addressing it on her ground.

Third, you need to address the matter of authority. Both you and Becky consider yourselves under the authority of the Bible but through human institutions (Becky through the Catholic Church, you through authors that agree with your position...essentially, your own authority). Fourth, you do not seem equipped to share the gospel. This is what I meant awhile back when I recommended that you submit to a pastor as a mentor and become a disciple so that you could make disciples.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Becky capitalizes on a very real problem. Too often well meaning Christians are misinformed and address false religions inappropriately. This is where you would most likely fit in.

I agree with Jon.

Do what Jesus would do and reach out in love (appropriately). Do what Paul would do and seek to be the friend she needs to win her to Christ.

This is outstanding advice.

You face a few hurdles at the start. First, if she is a friend and knows about your divorce you would be disqualified just on that account. It is difficult to be a witness of Christ when the one to whom you speak views you as living worldly (like your wife viewed your drinking).

Serious Catholics live disciplined lives. They will not see you are knowing much about God unless your level of practical piety matches theirs.

Second, Becky is not justifying the Catholic position as much as explaining the Catholic doctrine itself.

Yes. The Roman Catholic church, with its long history, priesthood, sacraments, body of doctrine and wisdom, and symbols of authority are much more impressive and compelling that a single guy. As Jon states a bit later, the issue is one of authority.

While I would agree that the religion worships Mary in practice, the doctrine technically views Mary as another saint (in terms of praying to Mary). This is, of course, a problem - but one you can't tackle without addressing it on her ground.

There IS a cult of Mary within Roman Catholicism, but there are also a significant number of Roman Catholics who rightly reject the folk doctrines about Mary and the idolatry that tends to surround it. As the writers of the letter, Becky, thoughtfully explained that a significant number of their members are "under-catechized." The same can be said for most Protestant denominations, as well as Baptists.

I have some relatives that are Roman Catholic and I am convinced they know God, even though I think they are misled in some ways. I see the testimony of faith in how they live their lives, see the work of God in them, and can see how God blesses me through them. My mother was nominally Roman Catholic until she became Baptist after meeting my father. But she came to faith long before she met my father - it happened during the Catholic confirmation process when she was somewhere between 10-12 years of age. The Catholic priest personally explained to her that salvation was through faith in Christ - not rituals, sacraments or works. After witnessing to her, he invited her to place her faith in Christ. He also followed up with her for the rest of his life, from around 1945 to somewhere around 1998, writing a personal note to her at least once a year, to encourage her in the faith. Her parents, my maternal grandparents were culturally Roman Catholic, but we Protestant Christian in belief. They remained on the church rolls, but would not receive the sacraments because they did not accept the Roman Catholic beliefs on the subject. My grandfather had the last rites performed on him as he was dying, although if he had been conscious, I don't think he would have permitted it.

The reason I share that is to point out that Christians can be Roman Catholics, but that does not mean that all Roman Catholics are Christians - just like Christians can be Baptists, but not all Baptists are Christians.

Third, you need to address the matter of authority. Both you and Becky consider yourselves under the authority of the Bible but through human institutions (Becky through the Catholic Church, you through authors that agree with your position...essentially, your own authority).

If you are going to have a conversation with a knowledgeable Roman Catholic, you will need to know the scriptures well, as well as having more than a casual knowledge of Roman Catholicism. However, American Roman Catholics often deviate significantly from "official" church teaching, so you may need to take the position of a learner (this requires humility) and meet with this person over a series of weeks and months to find out what they believe and ask insightful questions that make their rethink their positions. I do this quite a bit with cultists, atheists, and persons of other major religions, and it works very well. In fact, I have a lunch appointment with an atheist tomorrow that is working out some issues of faith with his son -- he wants to be a good father and help his son make choices about faith without letting his admitted atheist biases inordinately influence his son. A man who has a heart like that is open to the gospel, and I plan to share it with him.

If you are truly interested in ministering and witnessing to Roman Catholics, you will need to actually invest in their lives and show consistency and humility in your dealings with them -- like Paul "reasoned" with various people as recorded in the Acts of the Apostles. And if you have the blessing of leading them to faith, you also have the responsibility of connecting them with a stable church fellowship and training them to grow in faith.

Fourth, you do not seem equipped to share the gospel. This is what I meant awhile back when I recommended that you submit to a pastor as a mentor and become a disciple so that you could make disciples.

Absolutely. One cannot make disciples (evangelism is the first step of discipleship) unless you are a disciple. You will know you are a disciple when you make some progress in your Christian life and get basic matters under control.

 

[evangelist6589]

I agree with Jon.


This is outstanding advice.


Serious Catholics live disciplined lives. They will not see you are knowing much about God unless your level of practical piety matches theirs.


Yes. The Roman Catholic church, with its long history, priesthood, sacraments, body of doctrine and wisdom, and symbols of authority are much more impressive and compelling that a single guy. As Jon states a bit later, the issue is one of authority.


There IS a cult of Mary within Roman Catholicism, but there are also a significant number of Roman Catholics who rightly reject the folk doctrines about Mary and the idolatry that tends to surround it. As the writers of the letter, Becky, thoughtfully explained that a significant number of their members are "under-catechized." The same can be said for most Protestant denominations, as well as Baptists.

I have some relatives that are Roman Catholic and I am convinced they know God, even though I think they are misled in some ways. I see the testimony of faith in how they live their lives, see the work of God in them, and can see how God blesses me through them. My mother was nominally Roman Catholic until she became Baptist after meeting my father. But she came to faith long before she met my father - it happened during the Catholic confirmation process when she was somewhere between 10-12 years of age. The Catholic priest personally explained to her that salvation was through faith in Christ - not rituals, sacraments or works. After witnessing to her, he invited her to place her faith in Christ. He also followed up with her for the rest of his life, from around 1945 to somewhere around 1998, writing a personal note to her at least once a year, to encourage her in the faith. Her parents, my maternal grandparents were culturally Roman Catholic, but we Protestant Christian in belief. They remained on the church rolls, but would not receive the sacraments because they did not accept the Roman Catholic beliefs on the subject. My grandfather had the last rites performed on him as he was dying, although if he had been conscious, I don't think he would have permitted it.

The reason I share that is to point out that Christians can be Roman Catholics, but that does not mean that all Roman Catholics are Christians - just like Christians can be Baptists, but not all Baptists are Christians.


If you are going to have a conversation with a knowledgeable Roman Catholic, you will need to know the scriptures well, as well as having more than a casual knowledge of Roman Catholicism. However, American Roman Catholics often deviate significantly from "official" church teaching, so you may need to take the position of a learner (this requires humility) and meet with this person over a series of weeks and months to find out what they believe and ask insightful questions that make their rethink their positions. I do this quite a bit with cultists, atheists, and persons of other major religions, and it works very well. In fact, I have a lunch appointment with an atheist tomorrow that is working out some issues of faith with his son -- he wants to be a good father and help his son make choices about faith without letting his admitted atheist biases inordinately influence his son. A man who has a heart like that is open to the gospel, and I plan to share it with him.

If you are truly interested in ministering and witnessing to Roman Catholics, you will need to actually invest in their lives and show consistency and humility in your dealings with them -- like Paul "reasoned" with various people as recorded in the Acts of the Apostles. And if you have the blessing of leading them to faith, you also have the responsibility of connecting them with a stable church fellowship and training them to grow in faith.


Absolutely. One cannot make disciples (evangelism is the first step of discipleship) unless you are a disciple. You will know you are a disciple when you make some progress in your Christian life and get basic matters under control.

I address no false religion improperly. I use the law.

 

[JonC]

I address no false religion improperly. I use the law.

Now that is funny!!!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I agree with Jon.


This is outstanding advice.


Serious Catholics live disciplined lives. They will not see you are knowing much about God unless your level of practical piety matches theirs.


Yes. The Roman Catholic church, with its long history, priesthood, sacraments, body of doctrine and wisdom, and symbols of authority are much more impressive and compelling that a single guy. As Jon states a bit later, the issue is one of authority.


There IS a cult of Mary within Roman Catholicism, but there are also a significant number of Roman Catholics who rightly reject the folk doctrines about Mary and the idolatry that tends to surround it. As the writers of the letter, Becky, thoughtfully explained that a significant number of their members are "under-catechized." The same can be said for most Protestant denominations, as well as Baptists.

I have some relatives that are Roman Catholic and I am convinced they know God, even though I think they are misled in some ways. I see the testimony of faith in how they live their lives, see the work of God in them, and can see how God blesses me through them. My mother was nominally Roman Catholic until she became Baptist after meeting my father. But she came to faith long before she met my father - it happened during the Catholic confirmation process when she was somewhere between 10-12 years of age. The Catholic priest personally explained to her that salvation was through faith in Christ - not rituals, sacraments or works. After witnessing to her, he invited her to place her faith in Christ. He also followed up with her for the rest of his life, from around 1945 to somewhere around 1998, writing a personal note to her at least once a year, to encourage her in the faith. Her parents, my maternal grandparents were culturally Roman Catholic, but we Protestant Christian in belief. They remained on the church rolls, but would not receive the sacraments because they did not accept the Roman Catholic beliefs on the subject. My grandfather had the last rites performed on him as he was dying, although if he had been conscious, I don't think he would have permitted it.

The reason I share that is to point out that Christians can be Roman Catholics, but that does not mean that all Roman Catholics are Christians - just like Christians can be Baptists, but not all Baptists are Christians.


If you are going to have a conversation with a knowledgeable Roman Catholic, you will need to know the scriptures well, as well as having more than a casual knowledge of Roman Catholicism. However, American Roman Catholics often deviate significantly from "official" church teaching, so you may need to take the position of a learner (this requires humility) and meet with this person over a series of weeks and months to find out what they believe and ask insightful questions that make their rethink their positions. I do this quite a bit with cultists, atheists, and persons of other major religions, and it works very well. In fact, I have a lunch appointment with an atheist tomorrow that is working out some issues of faith with his son -- he wants to be a good father and help his son make choices about faith without letting his admitted atheist biases inordinately influence his son. A man who has a heart like that is open to the gospel, and I plan to share it with him.

If you are truly interested in ministering and witnessing to Roman Catholics, you will need to actually invest in their lives and show consistency and humility in your dealings with them -- like Paul "reasoned" with various people as recorded in the Acts of the Apostles. And if you have the blessing of leading them to faith, you also have the responsibility of connecting them with a stable church fellowship and training them to grow in faith.


Absolutely. One cannot make disciples (evangelism is the first step of discipleship) unless you are a disciple. You will know you are a disciple when you make some progress in your Christian life and get basic matters under control.

BB, may I ask...how well do you know this guy?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Okay those that know more about Catholicism than me how should I respond to this Catholic?

You might ask her, if she were to die today, how confident she is of getting to heaven, and why. If she's a good Roman Catholic, she should not have full assurance of heaven. You can then explain to her how she should have assurance.

The other thing is, you can find dozens of prayers to Mary, by no means all of which ask her to pray.
For example:
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!
Hail our life, our sweetness, and our hope!
To you do we cry, poor banished
children of Eve; to you do we send
up our sighs, mourning and weeping
in this valley of tears.


Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
you eyes of mercy toward us; and
after this, our exile, show unto us the
blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus.
O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.

There are plenty of other examples on line. Ask her why she feels the need to pray to humans when the Lord Jesus bids us pray to Him and promises to answer prayers made in His name.
But it's important to be friendly and respectful, otherwise you will ruin your witness.

 

[Baptist Believer]

BB, may I ask...how well do you know this guy?

I don't know him in "real life," but I have been interacting with him for nearly five years in this forum.

If he is not making up stories (which would be a completely different issue), he tells us of his beliefs, exploits in "open air preaching", his marital issues, his zealous dismissal of anything that contradicts the Way of the Master teaching and methodology, and many other things.

Many here have tried to gently counsel him. I even spent some time working through the "Way of the Master" book because he was convinced that I did not have any right to speak against some terrible theology being described as "the way of the Master." As I read the book and pointed out every few chapters how Ray Comfort's teaching didn't hold up to scripture, he got quite upset with me and insisted that I did not understand it. John of Japan invested much more time and read the book carefully, giving us a multi-part analysis of the book, but our evangelist friend here gave John a lot of grief for pointing out the numerous and substantial issues with the book.

He has declared most of the people who try to help him as "critics," but many of us still try to help. It is quite clear that he wants to do the right thing by God, but doesn't seem to want to commit to actually being a disciple and bringing his life under the direction and guidance of Christ. The fruit of his life (known by how he acts toward us, as well as by the things he tells us about his life) points to one who is thrashing about, unable to connect properly to the transforming work of Jesus. It is quite sad to see it every day, so I try to be helpful.

 

[evangelist6589]

You might ask her, if she were to die today, how confident she is of getting to heaven, and why. If she's a good Roman Catholic, she should not have full assurance of heaven. You can then explain to her how she should have assurance.

The other thing is, you can find dozens of prayers to Mary, by no means all of which ask her to pray.
For example:
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!
Hail our life, our sweetness, and our hope!
To you do we cry, poor banished
children of Eve; to you do we send
up our sighs, mourning and weeping
in this valley of tears.


Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
you eyes of mercy toward us; and
after this, our exile, show unto us the
blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus.
O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.

There are plenty of other examples on line. Ask her why she feels the need to pray to humans when the Lord Jesus bids us pray to Him and promises to answer prayers made in His name.
But it's important to be friendly and respectful, otherwise you will ruin your witness.

Best post of this thread. I have not yet responded to her but will soon. Thanks for the tips said to me in love. [attacks against the members of this board has been removed].

 

[Don]

Best post of this thread. I have not yet responded to her but will soon. Thanks for the tips said to me in love. [snip].

2 Tim 4:3 isn't just about bad preachers....

 

[Baptist Believer]

Thanks for the tips said to me in love.

Remember that "love" does not always look like happy and supportive behavior. If someone is doing something dangerous to oneself and others, the loving response will be NOT to affirm that behavior, but to confront it. If I have a friend destroying their life, I go confront them, expose the issue that I see, talk to them about how things can be made better, and then walk with them and support them in their transformation. I have done that with addictions, with immorality, with uncontrolled anger, false doctrine, etc.

There are a number of people here who are trying to do that with you, but you have dismissed them as your "critics." Human beings are incredibly skilled at self-deception. I think you have been deceiving yourself.

With the WOTM method, you call out the Ten Commandments to get others to recognize their sin. Why do you complain when persons here specifically and carefully point out where you are falling short and where things need to change?

(attack against board members removed).

Live by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desires of the flesh. For the flesh has desires that are opposed to the Spirit, and the Spirit has desires that are opposed to the flesh, for these are in opposition to each other, so that you cannot do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, depravity, idolatry, sorcery, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish rivalries, dissensions, factions, envying, murder, drunkenness, carousing, and similar things. I am warning you, as I had warned you before: Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God!

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

Galatians 5:16-23​

Are you experiencing some of the works of the flesh, or the fruit (singular - not "fruits") of the Spirit (an expression of the character of Christ)? The Holy Spirit is producing the fruit of the Spirit in many of the lives you claim do not have the "power of the Holy Spirit."

 

[TCassidy]

Thanks for the tips said to me in love.

Proverbs 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; although the kisses of an enemy are profuse.

 

[TCassidy]

I address no false religion improperly. I use the law.

Which is improper. Preaching the law never saved anyone. Preach Grace. Preach Christ. Preach Mercy.

No wonder you never have any converts!