"Wives Submit To Your Husbands In Everything?"

Interesting...how do you deal with Ephesians 5:22-24?[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Contextually. In the marital relationship, don't use a single verse as a cure-all. Id doesn't work with the Prayer of Jabez, and it doesn't work with Eph 5:22 Otherwise, using that verse alone, there no requirement for wives to love their husbands, only to submit to them.

As far as me equating marital submission to mutual submission as christian friends, Jesus even said he no longer calls people follwers, but friends. Jesus exemplified this by submitting to his friends when he washed their feet. Before your mate can be your spouse, she/he must be your friend. If your spouse is not your best friend, then might I suggest some marital counseling...

 

Interesting...how do you deal with Ephesians 5:22-24?</font>[/QUOTE]Contextually. In the marital relationship, don't use a single verse as a cure-all. Id doesn't work with the Prayer of Jabez, and it doesn't work with Eph 5:22 Otherwise, using that verse alone, there no requirement for wives to love their husbands, only to submit to them.

As far as me equating marital submission to mutual submission as christian friends, Jesus even said he no longer calls people follwers, but friends. Jesus exemplified this by submitting to his friends when he washed their feet. Before your mate can be your spouse, she/he must be your friend. If your spouse is not your best friend, then might I suggest some marital counseling...[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I wasn't asking for proof text evidence. What is the meaning of these verses within its context, in your opinion?

 

Well, I can't prove this, this is strictly my opinion, based on Paul, what I know of husmands, and what I know of wives:

What's the hardest for women to do? Submitting to their spouses. So Paul instructs wives to do so. He doesn't need to tell men to do so, because husbands know how to submit to their wives. There's not a husband alive who doesn't know the value of the words "Yes, dear". For women it's a little harder.

What's the hardest thing for men to do? Love women they way they deserve to be loved (it seems women's most common complaints are that it's hard to get men to commit). So Paul instructs the husbands to do love their wives. Paul doesn't need to instruct wives to love, they already know how. Guys need a little reminding. There's not a wife who hasn't seen her hubby tear up when she tells him "I love you".

See? Paul was a smart cookie. It's the rest of us who are having problems with his smatrness

 

Your opinion is your opinion. What you haven't done is address Paul's actual words concerning headship in the home. Paul was a smart cookie and he used specific words. You need to address those words.

 

Jonathan said:
"What you haven't done is address Paul's actual words concerning headship in the home. Paul was a smart cookie and he used specific words. You need to address those words. "

Johnathan...
You had challened Johnv to substantiate his claim that the husband is the head of the wife... not Christ directly by quoting Eph.5:22-24 as proof to contrary, which reads:

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

What I don't see is just how this passage does anything but confirm the idea that Johnv was propounding..... that the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the church. I feel like I must be missing something in the argument, or have gotten confused as to who was saying what... could you clear this up?

As for me, I think the case is rather plain, frankly. ALL power is given unto the Lord Jesus in heaven and earth. That makes Him head of EVERYTHING. But we don't call him the president of the United States for that sake, because HE has established realms of authority among men... in the state, in the home, and in the church.... civil, domestic, ecclesiasitcal. We don't call Jesus the pastor of our church, or our state govenor, OR the head of the house. He never calls Himself that ANYWHERE in the bible. I surely don't see it in Eph.5:22-24... do you? It is, in my opinion, just another form of rebellion to HIS authority which He DELEGATED in these realms, withal painting it as though it were from a desire but to submit to Him. It is really just another form of anarchy.

G4G

 

It is pure idealism to believe that all decisions can be made on equal footing...that would be assuming that we are all of like minds. No matter what happens, the majority will have it's say.

But in a marriage, there are two people. The split is always 50-50. So if there's a disagreement, there's a stalemate.

In the business world, there's a hierarchy of decision-making. It's practical. In government we find the same thing.

Perhaps comparing a marriage to those two worlds is not appropriate, but I don't have a problem with deferring to a Godly man in order to run a smooth-running, peaceful home. Perhaps we as women are charged with the challenge of trusting that God's Will will be reflected by the words and deeds of our husbands. Certainly we have the power of prayer to help see that challenge through.

I like what John V had to say about the strengths of men and women! What a clever design that man and woman would fit together so well BECAUSE of their differences...

Keeper, Proverbs DOES provide substantial backing to the premise that wise women can be priceless mates. It gives power and purpose to our submissive roles.

 

Well, I would have to disagree with this one point, though I agree with the rest of your post.

(Titus 2:4 KJV) That they (aged women
) may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands , to love their children,

See, women don't necessarily know how to love their husbands. I think because women are naturally emotional, and by far more emotional than men, folks tend to think love comes naturally for us. Obviously it doesn't or what purpose is there for this verse?

God has given the aged women the command to teach us younger ladies (though I think I'm fast approaching that aged woman stage with three daughters approaching young adulthood!) how to love our husbands.

Just a thought.

Julia

 

I think this represents an ideal. I think it also represents God's natural order of things. It's just that the implementation of the literal form of it doesn't seem to mesh because we are so motivated by weak, impure and small values and emotions.

If men were perfect and women were perfect, if we could be truly good, rid of pride, rid of motivations based on arrogance, anger, wanting, then there would be a perfect symbiosis, a perfect sympatico that would work much more harmoniously than it presently seems to when attempts are made to implement literal obediance.

The closer you come to God, to whatever degree you manage to see your character transformed at all, I believe the believer will see that this is the way it is intended. But the implementation of literal obedience - having it work - will be hampered to the same degree that both men and women find their characters still flawed by the remnants of the sinful nature: all that is pride, all that wants, all that struggles to understand and is frustrated, and anything that comes away in even the slightest degree from being excellent or praiseworthy. And we both still have a fair bit of that.

 

The husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church (this is straight from Ephesians, folks). Those who have a problem with this usually do so because of one of two reasons: 1) some have used this to subjugate women rather than holding them in esteem as the Scriptures teach; or 2) they deny the authority of Scripture and rebel against what God has revealed in His Word.

Rev. G

 

The divorce rate is now as high in the church as it is in the secular world. I believe the reason for this is that men and women do not understand each other. We do not understand God's grand design for women or for men. THis misunderstanding causes many moments of anger and hostility and major arguments.

I believe every couple contemplating marriage needs to go to a marriage counselor and learn these things. I think that Pastors need to get marriage counselors to come to their churches and hold classes on marriage. Also I think pastors need to preach on the mans role and the womans role in a marriage and the issue of submission would never be a sore spot in a marriage. Silence behind the pulpit is another major reason for divorce in the church.

Couples need to be taught marriage ideals and principles. Men and women both need to be taught intimacy not crudeness and animal lust.

Communication in marriage is another key that will make or break a marriage. This has to be taught then learned.

 

Rev. G and Rhema, with all others who agree
with them are right. But Rhema has hit the prob-
lem on the head when that the marriage mes-
sage must be consistantly taught from the pul-
pit. Too often, marriage counseling (while it
remains necessary) is attended by people with
stars in their eyes, heart-shaped plugs in
their ears, and a mistaken desire to please in
order to get what they want. Too soon after the
honeymoon ends, they start wanting what they
want because they want it, and they forget about
pleasing one another.

If marriage was taught and duly demonstrated
in the place of worship, if celebacy outside of
marriage was taught wiith the reasons, if the
value of children was taught, From The Pulpit
and through demonstration, it would make a
HUGE difference for believers.

 

It is pure idealism to believe that all decisions can be made on equal footing...that would be assuming that we are all of like minds. No matter what happens, the majority will have it's say.
Actually, the Bible does instruct us to be equally yoked. I think that means more than faith. Your faith needs to be similar, but so do your views, your expectation, and your dreams. The more you are equally yoked the better. Too many of us make reservations at the Italian Restaurant, then get mad becuse they don't serve sweet & sour pork.

But in a marriage, there are two people. The split is always 50-50. So if there's a disagreement, there's a stalemate.
Maybe that's the problem. The Bible says there should be three people in your marriage: husband, wife, and Christ. Even where there's disagreement, there will usually be a 2/3 majority.

 

This is an interesting thread...

I have mentioned before, and I think it might be worth a mention here, too, that there is one question I have never heard a marriage counselor asking an about-to-be married couple: is the wife confident of her husband's relationship with the Lord?

After a 20 year marriage to a husband who was not only active in the church but head usher, and yet who spent about 18 years of that marriage having affairs with other women, that kind of betrayal and pain taught me, if nothing else, how important the husband's relationship with the Lord is -- not how faithfully he attends church or how many church activities he is involved in, but how is his walk with the Lord in his private life?

To me, as a Christian woman, that was the pivotal point when, nine years after my former husband left me, Barry and I started to realize we had more than a professional relationship and friendship going.

It was Barry's relationship with the Lord that let me know I was safe with him and I could trust him, and that the Lord was in charge of his life. With that established, as well as my deep respect for his brains and work (and prayer life), my submission to him and obedience -- although it is still being learned in some areas -- is a joyfully given gift. It may be obedience to the Lord, too, and I am glad of that, but it is from my heart a gift of love to my husband, honoring him as head of the home and the one with 51% voting stock.

He makes this a very easy gift to give since he asks me my opinion on just about everything. I am also aware that there is very little he would not do for me if he thought it would ever help me. For instance, I was starting the Bible study for the forum below last night when I ran into a verse that puzzled me. Because I had to leave him behind in Australia to finish healing from surgery as well as get his sister moved into a new home, I called him when I knew he was awake. Could he help me with this?

He dropped what he was doing and spent probably an hour or two digging around for me while I, in the middle of jet lag, reorganized my closet and bathroom until two in the morning when I was finally sleepy! Then I realized I had also left the phone off the hook by accident.

He had been trying to get hold of me. He was not angry at all. His very lack of anger often causes feelings of guilt in me because I know I can do better for him. At any rate, because it was so late, we waited until this morning to review what he had found. As a result, I will do an entire Bible study a little later on one sentence.

It was his gift to me, simply because I asked for a little help -- and actually only wanted his opinion as I was too tired and mentally disconnected to do anything more!

But he went the extra nine yards for me. He always does.

What on earth could I give him in return but my total support, love, respect, submission, and obedience. He checks in with the Lord constantly regarding what course we should be taking and even regular daily decisions. I should fight that? It is a privilege to be married to this man. After having to make every decision myself and take the responsibility for everything that happened in our home for nine years, I know better than to want to do that anymore! I am deeply grateful to God for this man and deeply grateful to Barry for his submission and obedience to God.

 

Great post, Johnv,
While I think Helen very eloquently explains her view, sometimes the longer you are married to a person you are in step with, the less you think of things in terms of one person making decisions and the other obeying.
When you are like-minded and both praying and both seeking God's will and both wanting to serve the other, it works out.

On a practical basis, in my family, the one who cares is the one who makes the decision. Many decisions are not that crucial.
Eg., my husband passed by a farmers' market Sat. morning and brought home some things he wanted for dinner. I was glad to do it. But it wasn't in a command/obedience context.
In really big decisions, and we have made some really big ones, God seems to have led us both. If one of us had a major hesitation, we waited for clarity.

Certainly the marriage relationship reflects Christ and the church. And there are passages on submission that I try not to ignore. But there are other concepts of sacrifice on the husband's part and of mutual submission.
I guess I feel sorry for a marriage in which there is so little harmony that everything necessarily is seen in context of command and obedience.

Karen

 

I think it hit me when I realized submission has very little to do with my husband and the kind of man he is,but more about me and my attitude towards God...it is about my submission to God.

I have to say here,also,that I have a wonderful godly man for a husband and we have been together in marriage almost 15 years. He is a very considerate person with love shown to me in countless ways...one way is we always discuss things,he cares what I think,but he is the head and he makes the final decisions in *all* areas of our lives. Although he is that kind of man,it is still not about that. It is about me and my relationship to the Lord that causes me to submit.

 

Okay I had to jump in here...but, I promise I won't make my post too wordy... it's hard when people go on and on...and there are 4 or 5 pages of posts... anyway...

It's easy for a wife to submit to her husband the way the Bible says to...when He will love her the way the Bible says to. It's harder to obey this mandate when the husband doesn't hold up his end. How then is it possible for a wife to submit in obedience to God? Grace.

Submission just means that the partnership of marriage has one person who is accountable to God...the man, and the woman is to defer to his final word.

The chain of comand doesn't go like this:

God
l
Man
l
Woman

It goes like this :

God
l
Man&lt;---Woman



[ September 17, 2002, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: WisdomSeeker ]