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Perhaps I am wrong but I suspect that “women behind the pulpit” addresses the on going argument that women should not preach or teach and not where they stand or walk.If I am wrong then so be it.
This post addresses specifically the previously posted quotations from 1Tim2...
Previously posted quotations:
1Ti 2:11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression.
From John 4 - Excerpts used to reduce length of post. You may elect to read all of John 4
7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
27 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?
28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
41 And many more believed because of his own word;
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
Questions –
29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
Where do you read that Christ told her to remain quiet about what she had heard or even imply that she should not testify to men about what she had just learned from Christ himself?
Compare Paul’s words in – “1Ti 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet…”
If the Samarian woman had “remained quiet” and kept Christ’s words to herself as Paul instructs, would any of the men in the Sumarian city have come out of the city to hear Christ and by hearing they believed on Christ?
When the Samarian women testified to the men of the Samarian city that “ ….told me all things that ever I did; is not this the Christ …..” – wasn’t the Samarian woman preaching and teaching?
If neither preaching or teaching, then how would describe what she did when she told the men about the teachings Christ had just told her?
Did God send the Eve to Hell for her transgressions? And what do the transgressions of Eve have to do with a Samarian women, who thousands of years later, testifies to the men of the Sumarian city about Jesus Christ?
To those who may read this and fail to understand the significance of the quoted verses, the verses show that while Paul may have prohibited women from testifying or preaching Jesus Christ's teachings, Jesus himself did not at any place in the New Testament voice a prohibition against women preaching and teaching his word. It is the message of Christ that is importand and not the messenger, be the messenger male or female.
You be your own judges as to who is the greater – Jesus or Paul.
This post addresses specifically the previously posted quotations from 1Tim2...
Previously posted quotations:
1Ti 2:11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression.
From John 4 - Excerpts used to reduce length of post. You may elect to read all of John 4
7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
27 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?
28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
41 And many more believed because of his own word;
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
Questions –
29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
Where do you read that Christ told her to remain quiet about what she had heard or even imply that she should not testify to men about what she had just learned from Christ himself?
Compare Paul’s words in – “1Ti 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet…”
If the Samarian woman had “remained quiet” and kept Christ’s words to herself as Paul instructs, would any of the men in the Sumarian city have come out of the city to hear Christ and by hearing they believed on Christ?
When the Samarian women testified to the men of the Samarian city that “ ….told me all things that ever I did; is not this the Christ …..” – wasn’t the Samarian woman preaching and teaching?
If neither preaching or teaching, then how would describe what she did when she told the men about the teachings Christ had just told her?
Did God send the Eve to Hell for her transgressions? And what do the transgressions of Eve have to do with a Samarian women, who thousands of years later, testifies to the men of the Sumarian city about Jesus Christ?
To those who may read this and fail to understand the significance of the quoted verses, the verses show that while Paul may have prohibited women from testifying or preaching Jesus Christ's teachings, Jesus himself did not at any place in the New Testament voice a prohibition against women preaching and teaching his word. It is the message of Christ that is importand and not the messenger, be the messenger male or female.
You be your own judges as to who is the greater – Jesus or Paul.
Women are not barred from testifying or sharing the Gospel; they are only barred from teaching and having authority over men in the church. Paul's first letter to Timothy is about the structure of a church, and qualifications for different roles in the church.
To answer your rhetorical question, Jesus is greater than Paul; but the teachings of Paul do not in any way contradict Jesus because they are directly inspired by God. In other words, the teachings of Paul ARE the teachings of Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
And this is what the inspired Word of God says:
1Ti 2:11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
Eric
[ September 22, 2002, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: eric_b ]
Baptist Believer:
Are you claiming that I'm arrogant because I believe what the Scriptures teach about the role of women, and that that role does not include serving as elders? You believe that they can. Why? Is that your conviction? Well, it is my conviction that the Word of God is plain. It is conviction, friend. It's not that "my interpretation" equals "God's Word." It takes serious study of the Scriptures and of Church History to come to conclusions and convictions.
Joshua:
Could I not ask you the same question?
The reason: I like to see what people have to say, and to find out whether they have anything fresh to add to the discussion. Is that alright?
Rev. G
Legacy:
Who is greater, you ask, Jesus or Paul? The Apostle Paul will answer that for you in 1 Corinthians 3. Nonetheless, where Paul writes it IS "God-breathed", is it not? So, where Paul speaks is it not our Lord Jesus speaking through him? Or do you believe that there are "holes" in the NT Scriptures? Just curious.
Rev. G
Who is greater, you ask, Jesus or Paul? The Apostle Paul will answer that for you in 1 Corinthians 3. Nonetheless, where Paul writes it IS "God-breathed", is it not? So, where Paul speaks is it not our Lord Jesus speaking through him? Or do you believe that there are "holes" in the NT Scriptures? Just curious.
Rev. G
...where Paul writes it IS "God-breathed", is it not? So, where Paul speaks is it not our Lord Jesus speaking through him?...
No. Where Paul speaks, he is writing upon inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is NOT Paul dictating the words of Christ.
The reason this is important is because Paul makes it clear that there are some things he says that are Christs plan for us, while some other things he writes are his administrative guides, for example, the opration of churches, etc. Paul's writings on women and the church are administrative in nature and not a matter of NT law. We need to apply the words as they were meant. It is clear by other biblical examples that have been posted here, that women have held leadership roles throughout the ages, and that the Holy Spirit has given women the spiritual gift thereto. I have found many verses that say when God calls us, we must follow. Indeed many women have been called to the Ministry; therefore forbidding them to do so would be telling them to disobey God's commands.
[ September 22, 2002, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
No. Where Paul speaks, he is writing upon inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is NOT Paul dictating the words of Christ.
The reason this is important is because Paul makes it clear that there are some things he says that are Christs plan for us, while some other things he writes are his administrative guides, for example, the opration of churches, etc. Paul's writings on women and the church are administrative in nature and not a matter of NT law. We need to apply the words as they were meant. It is clear by other biblical examples that have been posted here, that women have held leadership roles throughout the ages, and that the Holy Spirit has given women the spiritual gift thereto. I have found many verses that say when God calls us, we must follow. Indeed many women have been called to the Ministry; therefore forbidding them to do so would be telling them to disobey God's commands.
[ September 22, 2002, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
Johnv, I'm not sure I agree with your idea of what "God breathed" or "inspired" means, but even hypothetically granting that - I think it's clear from the reasons Paul gives for the rule in v's 13 and 14 that it is a fundamental teaching and not dependant on social context.
1Ti 2:13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression.
This was true in Paul's day, it's still true now, and it will always be true. Thus the conclusion is also true for the church today as well as the early church.
1Ti 2:11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
I think our disagreement is an outcropping of our differing ideas about how inspired the Word of God is, or what that means exactly. For my part, I think the following is pretty clear:
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Also, this is a good passage which talks a bit on how inspiration works:
2Pe 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
2Pe 1:21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
"spoke from God" seems pretty clear, and I believe 1Tim 2:11-14 was.
Eric
[ September 22, 2002, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: eric_b ]
1Ti 2:13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression.
This was true in Paul's day, it's still true now, and it will always be true. Thus the conclusion is also true for the church today as well as the early church.
1Ti 2:11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
I think our disagreement is an outcropping of our differing ideas about how inspired the Word of God is, or what that means exactly. For my part, I think the following is pretty clear:
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Also, this is a good passage which talks a bit on how inspiration works:
2Pe 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
2Pe 1:21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
"spoke from God" seems pretty clear, and I believe 1Tim 2:11-14 was.
Eric
[ September 22, 2002, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: eric_b ]
Maverick
Member
Baptist Believer, "I suffer not a woman to teach" and then a few verses later a pastor has to be "apt to teach." That should settle it right there, but then we have the husband of one wife issue. When "my opinion" is so clearly stated in the Word then I must 'umbly state that it is the Word of God and I am only sharing it and not my opinion.
1 Cor 14:34-38
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. (KJV)
Hard for a woman to pastor if she is not to speak in a classroom situation and not allowed to teach. Paul said he was writing commandments of the Lord.
2 Pet 3:15-16
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (KJV)
Peter said that the unlearned and unstable have problems with Paul's teaching.
He did say that it was by permission that he was allowed to say that he desired all to be single as he was and gave some instructions due to persecution problems. That did not mean everything he said was by permission.
If the Lord allowed him to give those teachings, it is reasonable to believe that they were within the parameters of the Lord's will or he would not have given him permission.
So, Paul had this on his heart and God said to go ahead and share your heart. Not a direct commandment, but obviously in the Lord's will and hence still to be used for doctrine.
Paul was used of God to write most of the NT, so who am I to argue with His choice and what He allowed him to write? If He allowed, He agreed so it isbest that I agree as well.
1 Cor 14:34-38
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. (KJV)
Hard for a woman to pastor if she is not to speak in a classroom situation and not allowed to teach. Paul said he was writing commandments of the Lord.
2 Pet 3:15-16
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (KJV)
Peter said that the unlearned and unstable have problems with Paul's teaching.
He did say that it was by permission that he was allowed to say that he desired all to be single as he was and gave some instructions due to persecution problems. That did not mean everything he said was by permission.
If the Lord allowed him to give those teachings, it is reasonable to believe that they were within the parameters of the Lord's will or he would not have given him permission.
So, Paul had this on his heart and God said to go ahead and share your heart. Not a direct commandment, but obviously in the Lord's will and hence still to be used for doctrine.
Paul was used of God to write most of the NT, so who am I to argue with His choice and what He allowed him to write? If He allowed, He agreed so it isbest that I agree as well.
I have a question for those of you who believe that there are merely "differing interpretations" on this issue, particularly as some have claimed here and elsewhere that I and others believe that "my/our interepretatation" is "equal" to God's Word (and that we need to be more humble). How does your line of thinking affect your understanding of the Gospel? How does it affect who you think Christ is and what He has done? Some "interpret" the Scriptures to teach universalism. Is it arrogance to state that this is wrong? Is it just "our interpretation" to say that there is no salvation outside of Christ, and that one must place his/her faith in Christ alone to be saved? Just curious as to what you all are thinking.
Rev. G
Rev. G
Maverick said: Bro. Glen, I wish you would not hold back so much and let loose to tell us how you really feel about it.
Maverick I'm afraid I cannot do that as I respect the different opinion of the different posters on the different topics. I will not go toe to toe with anyone on here if they disagree. They are free to state their views in an orderly, kind, and decent manner as I am. If you were in my church or of the Primitive baptist brethren then my discussion on the subject takes on a new flavor. Scripture always interpret scripture and is of no private interpretation... Brother Glen
Maverick I'm afraid I cannot do that as I respect the different opinion of the different posters on the different topics. I will not go toe to toe with anyone on here if they disagree. They are free to state their views in an orderly, kind, and decent manner as I am. If you were in my church or of the Primitive baptist brethren then my discussion on the subject takes on a new flavor. Scripture always interpret scripture and is of no private interpretation... Brother Glen
But these instructions seem to be assuming that women are slow to learn, no knowledge, uneducated etc. I can imagine that in those days the men treated their women like the Muslim treat their's today. But if we look at the education that women receive now, and the dropout rate of some men, it may be some men who should keep their mouths shut during service and ask their wives about it when they get back home.
Traditions change. They have changed, and we can't very well hold on to flat earth premises and expect to grow.
There is no real clear instruction given in these verses, each has a hole big enough to drive a Mac truch through. So lets get the facts and leave subjective interpretation off the table.
1Tim 2 was not talking about just in a church service, but rather in any circumstances a wife should not dominate her husband and should only ask to learn things from him at home. The reward to be that she will not die during childbirth. Need we go on? If a wife doesn't have fear of death in childbirth, then you can still teach. This also doesn't refer to women in general but only to wives.
1 Tim 3 makes it clear that a head of a house hold appears to be the central important issue to hold these positions. Other issues may or may not apply. For instance, Paul couldn't hold any office in church if we went by these guidelines in strict literal interpretation. But he could if we went by the spirit of them being an ideal way of choosing the leaders and teachers.
Traditions change. They have changed, and we can't very well hold on to flat earth premises and expect to grow.
There is no real clear instruction given in these verses, each has a hole big enough to drive a Mac truch through. So lets get the facts and leave subjective interpretation off the table.
1Tim 2 was not talking about just in a church service, but rather in any circumstances a wife should not dominate her husband and should only ask to learn things from him at home. The reward to be that she will not die during childbirth. Need we go on? If a wife doesn't have fear of death in childbirth, then you can still teach. This also doesn't refer to women in general but only to wives.
1 Tim 3 makes it clear that a head of a house hold appears to be the central important issue to hold these positions. Other issues may or may not apply. For instance, Paul couldn't hold any office in church if we went by these guidelines in strict literal interpretation. But he could if we went by the spirit of them being an ideal way of choosing the leaders and teachers.
Johnv:
If you insist that the matter of female pastors is just a matter of "differing interpretations," where do you draw the line? Do you draw the line at some point and time regarding "differing interpretations"? For example, the issue of universalism is one of "differing interpretations". Do you understand what I'm trying to get at with this?
Rev. G
If you insist that the matter of female pastors is just a matter of "differing interpretations," where do you draw the line? Do you draw the line at some point and time regarding "differing interpretations"? For example, the issue of universalism is one of "differing interpretations". Do you understand what I'm trying to get at with this?
Rev. G
revjjjones
New Member
Here are some scriptures to take into consideration:
Joel 2:28
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
(Whole Chapter: Joel 2 In context: Joel 2:27-29)
Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams
Look at all of these great women of God who are in the pulpit: Juanita Bynum, Paula White, Joyce Meyer,etc.
Joel 2:28
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
(Whole Chapter: Joel 2 In context: Joel 2:27-29)
Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams
Look at all of these great women of God who are in the pulpit: Juanita Bynum, Paula White, Joyce Meyer,etc.
revjjjones
New Member
We sould also remember what Hebrews 13:8 says
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
(Whole Chapter: Hebrews 13 In context: Hebrews 13:7-9)
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
(Whole Chapter: Hebrews 13 In context: Hebrews 13:7-9)
Yes, that's correct, women are not banned from prophesying or being prophetesses (although being a prophet is something God selects you for and not something you can just decide to be). That is not the same thing as having a role of authority over men in the church, though, and the latter is explicitly limited to men according to Scripture.
Hmmm... this discussion is starting to go around in circles, I think this is where I get off...
Eric
[ September 23, 2002, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: eric_b ]
Hmmm... this discussion is starting to go around in circles, I think this is where I get off...
Eric
[ September 23, 2002, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: eric_b ]