Woman senior pastor

[Yeshua1]

The chapter "Paul and the Eschatological Woman" addresses the topic at hand. All of the book is worth reading.

I doubt you will be able to preview all of the pertinent material, but you should be able to see enough of it to understand that Dr. Ellis is dealing quite conservatively with the text - not like some commentators who have not bothered to review his work have asserted.

Again, there is NO passages that one can use to support that notion, its more that he is assuming that since we are all now one in Christ, and all are gifted, that God no longer has a male leadership/headship going on still, but that is rooted right into creation irself!

 

[Yeshua1]

The word διάκονον may refer either to a female who is serving, or more specifically refer to a female deacon, a deaconess. But what is your point? What does this have to do with a woman serving as a Senior Pastor? This is a sincere question, I honestly do not understand your point here.

Again, NO female listed and called either Pastor/Elder in the NT!

 

[Calminian]

The church has a right to do whatever it wants, but that is an unscriptural act on their part. Any Pastor should be male, you cannot twist the Greek that much to make it female when it is masculine for a bishop/pastor. The world has gone to such a crazy place here in America! This PC junk is an abomination, strive to be Biblically Correct and you will do well.

But I think it's even more disturbing than just PC entering the Church (which is definitely happening also). This is a subtle undermining of God's Word. It's the very subtle message that God's word can't be trusted when read in a simple straightforward way. "You need to look to the scholars to find the hidden subtleties which allow for female pastors and a host of other things."

 

[Baptist Believer]

Again, there is NO passages that one can use to support that notion, its more that he is assuming that since we are all now one in Christ, and all are gifted, that God no longer has a male leadership/headship going on still, but that is rooted right into creation irself!

Since you quoted my post giving information on where to read the argument in the book online, have you actually read the preview of the book that is referenced? The reason I ask is that in the preview that I was able to see, Ellis specifically deals with the issues surrounding male and female in creation.

Are you actually reacting to what he wrote or are you simply making assertions without engaging in the materials provided?

If you are engaging, what issues do you have with the way Ellis treats Genesis 1-3 and his affirmation of the created order as beautifully correlating with the new reality of the Kingdom of God? Please explain.

 

[Baptist Believer]

It's the very subtle message that God's word can't be trusted when read in a simple straightforward way.

Matthew 5:42
Jesus said, "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you."​

Please give me $600 in $100 bills. I will send you the address in private.

NOTE: Don't subtly undermine the word of God by not taking that passage "in a simple straightforward way."

"You need to look to the scholars to find the hidden subtleties which allow for female pastors and a host of other things."

Ellis' argument does not deal with anything hidden. It is there in the text.

 

[Calminian]

Matthew 5:42
Jesus said, "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you."​

Please give me $600 in $100 bills. I will send you the address in private.

NOTE: Don't subtly undermine the word of God by not taking that passage "in a simple straightforward way."


Ellis' argument does not deal with anything hidden. It is there in the text.

Context describes small things like cloaks and scarves. Doesn't mention large things cars, houses, etc. It's similar to the immediate context. Overlooking insults (slap on the cheek) is not the same as allowing someone to assault you or your family. And walking 1 or 2 miles, not the same as traveling cross country. Context is everything.

You can pluck anything out of context and come up with strange doctrines like giving away your money, pacifism and female pastors. But we are commanded to consult the whole counsel of God's word.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Context describes small things like cloaks and scarves. Doesn't mention large things cars, houses, etc. It's similar to the immediate context. Overlooking insults (slap on the cheek) is not the same as allowing someone to assault you or your family. And walking 1 or 2 miles, not the same as traveling cross country. Context is everything

Yes, exactly, But what you are doing is NOT interpreting scripture in "a simple straightforward way."

So you made my point.

You can pluck anything out of context and come up with strange doctrines ... But we are commanded to consult the whole counsel of God's word.

And what I am saying is that one needs to look at the whole counsel of the word of God instead of simply waving proof-texts at those with whom we disagree. We have to look at the individual texts carefully - without inserting our biases - and see how the texts work together to paint the big picture.

 

[Calminian]

Yes, exactly, But what you are doing is NOT interpreting scripture in "a simple straightforward way."

So you made my point.

NO, you made mine. I took scripture literally, you added to it. I took it literally that we should not worry bout small things like cloaks and scarves. You added to it demanding large sums of money. My interpretation was literal, yours was not. Mine took in the whole counsel, yours did not.

You're doing the same with female pastors. You take one verse out of context and use it ignore countless others.

 

[Baptist Believer]

NO, you made mine. I took scripture literally, you added to it. I took it literally that we should not worry bout small things like cloaks and scarves. You added to it demanding large sums of money. My interpretation was literal, yours was not. Mine took in the whole counsel, yours did not

Wow. I thought we had some agreement.

Well, I guess we'll just let everyone else decide who is correct.

You're doing the same with female pastors. You take one verse out of context and use it ignore countless others.

Baseless accusation without evidence, understanding, or interest in investigating whether or not it is true.

 

[Yeshua1]

Since you quoted my post giving information on where to read the argument in the book online, have you actually read the preview of the book that is referenced? The reason I ask is that in the preview that I was able to see, Ellis specifically deals with the issues surrounding male and female in creation.

Are you actually reacting to what he wrote or are you simply making assertions without engaging in the materials provided?

If you are engaging, what issues do you have with the way Ellis treats Genesis 1-3 and his affirmation of the created order as beautifully correlating with the new reality of the Kingdom of God? Please explain.

Again, the new reality refers to spiritual blessings and equal privileges now to both Male/female, but God never has moved off his pattern of male leadership/headship....

 

[Baptist Believer]

Again, the new reality refers to spiritual blessings and equal privileges now to both Male/female, but God never has moved off his pattern of male leadership/headship....

That's an assertion, not an answer to the question I posed to you.

 

[Yeshua1]

Paul still saw that men alone were to be Pastors and Elders though,

 

[Baptist Believer]

Paul still saw that men alone were to be Pastors and Elders though,

That's an unsubstantiated assertion. You can shout that at people all day long and it doesn't make a difference unless you can demonstrate it in the scripture. Scripture is my authority, not you.

I have nothing against you, but if you are going to make assertions about another person's argument, it would be helpful to actually engage it instead of ignoring it and hurling your opinion at them.

 

[Yeshua1]

That's an unsubstantiated assertion. You can shout that at people all day long and it doesn't make a difference unless you can demonstrate it in the scripture. Scripture is my authority, not you.

I have nothing against you, but if you are going to make assertions about another person's argument, it would be helpful to actually engage it instead of ignoring it and hurling your opinion at them.

Could you please give me those verses paul supported females as pastors/elders then?

 

[Reynolds]

That's an unsubstantiated assertion. You can shout that at people all day long and it doesn't make a difference unless you can demonstrate it in the scripture. Scripture is my authority, not you.

I have nothing against you, but if you are going to make assertions about another person's argument, it would be helpful to actually engage it instead of ignoring it and hurling your opinion at them.

I have no idea how Paul could have been anymore plain.

 

[Yeshua1]

I have no idea how Paul could have been anymore plain.

I have NEVER received back ANY passages from those advocating female pastors/elders as being in the NT, especially in Paul!

 

[Reynolds]

I have NEVER received back ANY passages from those advocating female pastors/elders as being in the NT, especially in Paul!

Paul was plain that MEN held those offices.

 

[Yeshua1]

Paul was plain that MEN held those offices.

Too bad that some would prefer to hold to what the current culture states on this issue than God!

 

[Baptist Believer]

Could you please give me those verses paul supported females as pastors/elders then?

If you are looking for proof texts, then it is difficult to provide that since many vital doctrines can't be easily proof-texted.

I have NEVER received back ANY passages from those advocating female pastors/elders as being in the NT, especially in Paul!

I will attempt to give you a summary of Ellis' analysis later in the coming week as I have time to do it since you don't want to look at it for yourself. I'm quite busy with work project deadlines and business travel over the next few days and I don't have time to tend a lengthy discussion of the issue.

Too bad that some would prefer to hold to what the current culture states on this issue than God!

This is simply and unkind and false assumption on your part. I am accountable to God and not the culture. You claim I am being unfaithful to God without evidence and that is deplorable.

 

[Yeshua1]

If you are looking for proof texts, then it is difficult to provide that since many vital doctrines can't be easily proof-texted.


I will attempt to give you a summary of Ellis' analysis later in the coming week as I have time to do it since you don't want to look at it for yourself. I'm quite busy with work project deadlines and business travel over the next few days and I don't have time to tend a lengthy discussion of the issue.


This is simply and unkind and false assumption on your part. I am accountable to God and not the culture. You claim I am being unfaithful to God without evidence and that is deplorable.

I am NOT addressing you with that posting, its more to the general stream in the church that seems to be resisting male headship in Family and Church!
And surely cannot be that hard to give me just ONE passage that supports female pastors/Elders in the NT?