Women aren't second-class believers

Nope, no problem here. My wife and I don't have the perfect marriage and have had to deal with some issues and keep working on others as they show up, but I think we have a good marriage.

 

I noticed the "must". You "must" be using a different definition of "must".

 

Matthew 19:8-12 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
The disciples said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry."
But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.
"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."

It seems to me that this passage says it is better to not get married based on the fact that once you marry someone you're stuck with them for the rest of your life or until one of you die. </font>[/QUOTE]That's a rather dismal view of marriage.

 

What Eladar fails to see is that, by remaining in an abusive relationship, the wife is giving her husband permission to sin. The bible says very clearly and repeatedly that we are not to stand in the presence of sin.

 

I would agree. She can actually be helping him to continue to sin. She can aid him in this.

James 1:14.15, "But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust . Then when lust has conceived,it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death."

 

So was Jesus wrong when he said that the only reason why someone should get divorced is over adultery? Was Jesus wrong when he said turn the other cheek? Someone has just sinned when you were hit, should you give them the other cheek to let them sin again?

 

Dear Eladar,
Let's say someone raped your wife, and he wanted to do it again, would you let him?
Let's say someone absolutely squished your kid, would you let that someone come near him/her again?
Or let's just say if a stranger at the store thought you took his parking spot and decided that you needed a lesson and absolutely belted you to a pulp, would you let the stranger decide when he was done? Then you notice that this stranger has dead bodies in his car, and a gun in pocket, and knifes sticking out everywhere... Honestly?
So, at what point would you say that a wife may have had enough of violence against her? Half dead, almost dead, or really dead dead before her turning the other cheek allotment was exercised?

Come to think about it, why would Joseph be warned in a dream to flee to Egypt?
Or why did some of the Apostles flee potential death?
In fact, why would the meekest man in all the earth kill an Egyptian? (Moses) (I know why)
But in a literal sense, why do you think that Moses thought that that was not right what was going on?
Or what about all the times in the Old Testament when judgment came upon the people that killed the innocent? When God's cup was full...
Consider the Law...there were consequences to people's actions. And Jesus said He came to fulfil them (not to abolish them). And in fact, Paul talks about government and why they are there, yes?
Of course.
They are there for a reason.

You do know that in America, one can be arrested now for striking another person.
How much more should it be in a marriage, when two people are to love one another?

 

Elk, that is going close to the best post in the discussion so far, top effort.

 

It is clear to me that you are further from the truth than I originally believed. Rather than rightly divide God's whole truth beginning with Gen. to Rev. You concentrate on highlighting, out of context what you choose to fit to your idea of truth. Not the first time I've seen it.

 

As Jesus said, there are few that will accept this teaching.

Elk,

Probably not, but does that mean I shouldn't? I sin all the time.

Once again probably not, but how much of that is the flesh?

Yes, I believe I would.

I don't see why societal values should affect our spiritual beliefs.

 

The Bible AS A WHOLE is clear: adultery AND abandonment are the only two reasons for divorce. The Bible AS A WHOLE is clear that raising your hand towards someone (including your spouse) in agression is sin. The Bible AS A WHOLE is also clear that to allow sin to continue is to be an accessory to the sin.

This is one of the most misundersttod and abused verses in the Bible. Turning the other cheek is not permission to allow someone to consinually sin against you.

Striking someone on the cheek, in the are that the NT was written, was a way for someone to belittle someone else in public. Turning the other cheek to you belittler was a public way of saying that ther words of the person who struck you are empty and worthless. It is an ignored challenge to someone's words. In other words, by turning the other cheeck, you were allowing the one who belittles you to belittle himself.

Jesus' calling to turn the other cheeck was not a call to allow people to use you as their punching bag.

Are YOU wrong to say that Jesus says sending your spouse to jail is userping their spousal authority? Yes, it's simply your perversion of the Gospel message.

 

According to your beliefs. I deny that the abandonment issue is a valid reason for divorce.

I don't think that I've ever denied the sinfulness of the situation

This is incorrect. It seems to me that you do not give God enough credit for what He allows and what He doesn't allow.

Jesus command was to dust off when people continue to sin. Jesus did not say force them to quit sinning.

 

1Cor 7 says "... Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace..." The believer who has been abandoned is not under bondage to a life of singleness and loneliness. They are free to marry in the Lord. Note that "unbeliever" doesn't refer to a nonchristian. The bible elsewhere talks about a person of God who abandons his Godly duties to be lacking faith. In this case also, the one-flesh union is broken because of the desertion.

You're confusing what God allowes and what we are to allow. God's word is clear that we are not to allow sin. Should we not seek out Osama Bin Laden, because God allowed the WTC to be destroyed? Certainly not.

In regards to sin in the general world, yes, but when the sin is against YOU, then YOU have a Godly responsibility to preserve the temple of the Holy Spirit. To willfully allow the body to be subjected to physical abuse is sin.

 

Dear Eladar,
Two things...
The Bible says we are to obey the laws of the land. You are wrong in what you said.

And...I strongly now believe that you are trying to justify some action that you committed.
Therefore, please read Isaiah 5:20.

If this is the case, please turn to Jesus. He loves you. Only He can reveal Truth.
If I am wrong, please forgive me.

 

In my years of ounseling people I have never counseled someone to get a divorce. In every case where there was spousal abuse I have counseled both spouses to separate and to get help in such a way that their marriage can be saved. I am of the opinion that any marriage can be saved if the couple is willing to work hard and do what is right. It is a great thing when that happens. But the reality is that too often the abuser will try to maipulate the person he abuses and will not stop abusing and face his actions. Too often the abuser plays the blame game and tries to manipulate the abused. Until the abuser is sufficiently humbled he will not seek help. I have seen some of those bounce off the bottom several times and contiunue to play the game and never learning.

 

Heres another unmarried opinion

1)
First ELK - careful there what did Peter say to the Jewish leaders after being beaten and told to do something?

Thats right better to obey God rather then man - Christianity has a nasty little history of being persecuted and outlawed - a little hard to be a Christian without breaking the law a few times - in several countries

2)
Second there is supposed to be a give and take - but to a point - there will be times when conflict arises, and no clear spiritual path is seen - that is when AFTER consulting with one's spouse - the male has to make the decision
3)
There is NO EXPIRED Scripture
ALL Scripture applies to ME and you - even the parts about women - since if the women arent supposed to do it - I really doubt the men are

The instant you take out a piece of Scriptures DIRECT application to you - then that Scripture is no longer accurate or valid to you - and if even one single piece of Scripture is inaccurate the whole thing is wrong - Christianity is a lie - and thus we should just shut down this board - or start discussing COFFEE

As to divorce - Adultery ONLY reason for divorce

you married the beater - somewhere in that cold bum's heart is something approximating human - which is what you married and deserve - take the previous post by the counsellor's advice - time apart with counselling and help - if it dont work, or you cant take it - send his buttocks to jail - but stay married - set an example of committment, try with God's help to fix. Remember God fixing not you

no one is beyond God's reach

abandonment - it aint doing you no harm to stay married to the guy/gal who left ya - unless you want something that you cant have while still married.

In that case think about yer motives

 

My husband told me the same thing as you said Elk, but he didn't apologize.

Eladar said:

Eladar, That is right, narrow is the way. Again you take a scripture out of context for what purpose?

My husband does not post here but he told me that not only should you read I Cor: 13 you need to apply v. 4 to yourself.

Eladar said in various posts:

Now if the bible is truth for all does that include women? Or if a husband continues in his sin does she shake the dust off her feet too? Or does God's law only apply to men in your view? Your statements throughout this have been inconsistent. You tell people to take beatings on the one hand and not to usurp authority, yet you would call the police on an abusive wife. By your line of thinking, what happened to your idea of trusting God? If Jesus is your head you have rebelled by going to the police, not trusting God to deal with her. Or does that apply to women only? One thing I agree with you on is that we can't get people to quit sinning, but we can and should make them face the consequenses of their sin so they realize and learn and have an opportunity to repent.

 

Out of context?

This statement....

This statement....

What statement is that? It seems to me that Jesus is talking about the statement just made:

"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

To which the disciples replied:

"If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry."

Would you please explain to me how I am taking this out of context?

The shaking off of dust has to do with bringing the good news to someone. If the person doesn't want to hear it, then don't shove it down their throat. Don't force them to live a righeous life.

It seems to me that you were trying to twist it into saying one should divorce such a person. Clearly this is an incorrect interpretation of scripture.