Women aren't second-class believers

[Frank]

Elnora:
The context of the chapter uses marriage as an illustration for the realtionship of the church and Christ. It does not address abuse of any kind. The text is teaching the church to submit to Christ. It is obvious Christ would not abuse his bride. Therefore, she submits to him in that which is right. The whole context and the phrase in everything must be interpreted in the light of the relationship of the church and Christ. I believe Paul makes the concise conclusion I Cor. 11:3 and I quote, "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." It is about as clear as the word could ever be clear. Man must either accept it or reject it. John 12:48.

 

[Elnora]

Frank,

That is exactly what I showed you was the emphasis after you said it was illuminating headship implying women submit no matter what, since the whole discussion is based on men loving their wives as Christ loved the church and how abuse is not part of that.
Nowhere did I say those scriptures mention abuse. Rather they are showing the mystery of becoming one with our spouse as Christ is one with the body.
Christ is head. Meaning he led, set the example, and became the servant. Here is what he told the disciples in Luke 22:25-30.

25. And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26. But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27. For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
28. Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30. That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Further scripture talks of submitting to each other. Preferring one another. Our Lord continually reminds us all to be a servant, husbands to wives, wives to husbands. Prefering, loving and building one another up.

I don't see headship demanding submission. Taking abuse or do as I say or else. I see it as teachng an example so we are all presented without spot or wrinkle (the bride). Loving and putting one ahead of your selves. We submit one to another in love. We can learn that by Christ as our head (of the church) Man as the head of the wife is to continue that example.

Notice after v. 25 saying the king of the gentiles lord it over them but for them it is not to be. The greatest among them is to be servant. If Jesus the King put the emphasis on his own service why should not a husband and disciple of Christ.

 

[Elnora]

Eladar,

From what I understood from Abiyah's post was "head", to many Christians means browbeat, belittle or demand. In that case he would not be the head but a dictator. I believe according to the scripture Jesus never intended that. He loves the Church so much that he literally laid his life down for it. That is why Paul pointed out that a man doesn't hate his body but cherishes and nourishes it. Which is the opposite of abuse. The mystery is we become one flesh. What a man does to his wife he is doing to himself.

 

[PastorGreg]

I find it interesting as a pastor that women love to point out that men aren't loving properly, and men love to point out that wives aren't submissive enough. Perhaps we need to be reminded that the focus in all of this is others. Paul doesn't say, "women, be sure you remind your husbands if they're not loving you like you think you deserve" nor does he say, "Men remind your wives to be submissive." Eph. 5:33 sums it all up - Husbands, love. Wives, respect. Usually the women who complain the loudest about men, have a problem accepting the leadership of their husbands and respecting them, and men who complain loudest about women have a problem loving and leading their wives.
As far as those in both genders who fail to fulfill their roles - the ultimate opportunity for the spouse to demonstrate Christlikeness. (I Pet. 2:20-23) BTW - I never counsel anyone to stay in a physically abusive situation. We try to remove the person from the danger, then counsel, etc.

 

[Carson Weber]

Where are all of these pastors coming from all at once?! Dan, Larry, and Greg: thanks for the posts. May God bless your ministries.

 

[Elnora]

Originally posted by PastorGreg:
I find it interesting as a pastor that women love to point out that men aren't loving properly, and men love to point out that wives aren't submissive enough. Perhaps we need to be reminded that the focus in all of this is others. Paul doesn't say, "women, be sure you remind your husbands if they're not loving you like you think you deserve" nor does he say, "Men remind your wives to be submissive." Eph. 5:33 sums it all up - Husbands, love. Wives, respect. Usually the women who complain the loudest about men, have a problem accepting the leadership of their husbands and respecting them, and men who complain loudest about women have a problem loving and leading their wives.
As far as those in both genders who fail to fulfill their roles - the ultimate opportunity for the spouse to demonstrate Christlikeness. (I Pet. 2:20-23) BTW - I never counsel anyone to stay in a physically abusive situation. We try to remove the person from the danger, then counsel, etc.

PastorGreg,

Thank you for your post I found it encouraging actually. I really like the way you worded your last comment. "The ultimate opportunity to demonstrate Christlikeness". Women and men should both easily relate to that. Like it is a privledge. And it is!

When I quoted my last post with scriptures I was moving in that direction. Thinking if a husband and wife follow what Christ taught it isn't so hard. We all know, or should, how to prefer others above ourselves. Why is is hard for a husband or wife to miss that? It may be easier to show the love of Christ to the body vs. spouse because of the intimate nature of the relationship?

Now I am going in a different direction than the "lord over abuse issue" but I was happy to read that you try to remove the person from danger, then counsel. I was hoping Frank would post again and further explain his position that he surely didn't mean for a woman to submit to abuse.

Some have posted that in their experiences women are told to stay in abusive relationships and pray for the spouse. Why would that be if the headship being taught was about loving your wife as Christ loved the church?

Since you are a pastor who counsels I would like to ask you. Do you see an increase in abuse cases. I am wondering why such a high rate of divorces among Christians that ought not to be. I know the majority of cases aren't physical abuse.

Since I brought this up I see there are more women being physically abusive than before also. I know it isn't a lot but still an issue. What could a man do in that case also. Then there is mental abuse which I think is more common. I have seen both. Appreciate your response.

 

[PastorGreg]

Elnora,

I have not personally seen a major increase in physical abuse cases (although, how many never are reported/detected?) We know satistically that there is a big increase, as you mentioned, in women becoming physically abusive. This also often goes undealt with as it is very humiliating for the man to admit, given the whole tough guy - wimpy girl thing. Mental abuse is perhaps more common.
In all of these, I see 2 main initial responsibilities - 1. Protect the abused, and
2. Confront the abuser with the fact that the bottom line is sinful choices which have led to sinful action. If the spiritual (sin) aspect is not dealt with, the real problem is not solved. This is just the beginning. Now we have a long process of restoration.

 

[Ben W]

It is a good thing to see that a church would suggest that a woman should be removed from a Physically Abusive relationship. Yet I would suggest that the same applies if the Abuse is Verbal or in another form as well.

 

[Eladar]

From what I understood from Abiyah's post was "head", to many Christians means browbeat, belittle or demand. In that case he would not be the head but a dictator.

Yes, too many men have the tendency to become tyrants, yet that was not the intent of her statement. It seems to me that her intent was to say that the idea that men are to be the head of the family is not in the Bible at all.

 

[dianetavegia]

Eladar said:

Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

It seems to me that the Bible does state that the man is supposed to be the head of the house.

Sure looks clear to ME!

Diane

 

[Frank]

Elnora:

What constitutes abuse? By what standard do you make this judgment? Does that change I Cor. 11:3 and Ephesians 5? If so, how? And, book, chapter and verse, please. Your argument is without biblical foundation. There is no divine inspired evidence to support your assertion.

 

[gb93433]

Whoever quotes Eph.5:22-33 often forgets the transitional verse in verse 21. Verse 21 is a participial phrase in Greek that denotes a transition from the passage that precedes to the passage that follows.

Without getting into all the theological arguemnts taken out of context. I would like to ask one question. How can someone submit with out loving that person? The point I believe is that we are to love, period. Paul gives ways for the husband to love his wife and for the wife to love her husband. The problem that exists in most marriages is over the issue of control which dates back to Genesis. It is unnatural for a man to love his wife and unnatural for the wife to submi6t to her husband, It is natural to control and unnatural to love. It is suoernatural to love.

We are to do the opposite of wanting control and power. We are to do what demonstrates a supernatural work in us. Submission to one another requires an incredible amount of strength and unselfishness.

Show me a couple that will submit themselves to one another and I will show you a couple that loves one another and is selfless to each other. The couple who prefers one ahead of the other will have success in their marriage.

There is no leadership without love.

Ever see a pastor who did not submit himself to the leaders of that congregation? There is no leadership withour submission and love.

No man really wants a weak lady as a wife. My wife was nearly a straight "A" student in high school and college. She enhances my life with her strength as a wife and mother. I could let it threaten me if I were insecure or weak. But I thank God for her and the things she brings to me and the family. I am more blessed than I could have ever imagined.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Ben W:
Gidday Abiyah,

I think that your original post raises a number of valid points.

Rather that go around and get into a scripture war with people that have blinkers on anyway, I would like to say that I have seen many males treat their wives like absolute Garbage and hide behind the Bible and their Legalistic church in order to do it.

What some males do not understand is that you put your wife before yourself, not treat her like a second class person.

The fact is that a number of men who treat their wives poorly are ususally Wimps and Cowards anyway, It is really sad to see one of these in the position of Pastor, but that unfortunatley does happen.

It is almost unbelievable, but there are churches out there that advise women who are being physically Assulted that they have to stay and pray that God will fix it all.

Some churches have destroyed women in situations like these.

Ed Silvoso's church in Argentina takes wome out of Abusive situations and goes as far as to tell the Coward involved that he will not see his wife again until he does there counselling course.

If a man treats his wife in an Abusive way she should ditch the loser and move out. He can either deal with his problems or he can lose her. Nobody has to put up with abuse in their own home despite what scriptures people try and quote to justify it.

Several of my relatives are police officers and tell me that they have never seen a man who beats his wife who would ever do the same with another man. They tell me these men are cowards.

 

[Eladar]

Several of my relatives are police officers and tell me that they have never seen a man who beats his wife who would ever do the same with another man. They tell me these men are cowards.

A rather secular view you hold for being a man of God. The real problem should be the fact that they are acting in a way that demonstrates a heart that is not God's, even if such a person would beat up men too.

I guess some sin is more socially acceptable than others.

 

[Elnora]

Originally posted by Frank:
Elnora:

What constitutes abuse? By what standard do you make this judgment? Does that change I Cor. 11:3 and Ephesians 5? If so, how? And, book, chapter and verse, please. Your argument is without biblical foundation. There is no divine inspired evidence to support your assertion.

Frank,

Thanks for responding, Quickly, I think you are confusing my post with Abiyah's. I didn't mention
Ephesians 5. I guess I could make a list of my idea of abuse other than the obvious beatings. I would rather she clarify her headship comment. The scripture definately say the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is to the church. I won't say more now, I am hesitant to quote anything Abiyah said at this point. She had to leave for a little bit and since she hasn't commented further I don't want to make assumptions on more of her post without her being able to reply.

Second, this is to everyone . I got a Trojan worm on my computer. When I found it and tried to delete the files they reproduce themselves again and again and won't let me delete them. So I think I need expert help on this one. I won't be posting until I can get it fixed.

But please keep this discussion going so I can hear more of everyones input. I really am enjoying the willingness of people to discuss this in a friendy manner. Be back as soon as I can.

To my friends I owe answers to by e-mail please don't think I forgot you. I will get to you as soon as I am able.

 

[Abiyah]

Originally posted by Eladar:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />From what I understood from Abiyah's post was "head", to many Christians means browbeat, belittle or demand. In that case he would not be the head but a dictator.

Yes, too many men have the tendency to become tyrants, yet that was not the intent of her statement. It seems to me that her intent was to say that the idea that men are to be the head of the family is not in the Bible at all. </font>[/QUOTE]Eladar --

Sorry I did not answer sooner; I have been away
for a few days.

I would ask you not at assume that you know my
intent. What you assumed was incorrect.
The Bible clearly states that a husband is the
head of the wife as our Lord is the head of His
people.

You are a math teacher: you know that when the
apples in the fruit basket are added up, their sum
is not equal to the sum of all the fruit in the basket,
when there are oranges in it, too. The Bible says
that the husband is the head of the wife; who, then,
is head of the husband? If the husband has
followed the mandates of the Word, then our Lord
is the head of him, making the Lord the head of the
house.

I wrote earlier in this thread that I would not want to
be in a house in which our Lord was not the Head
of the home. Over the last few days, my husband
and I, as well as others, have been through an
ordeal. Had our Lord not been the Head of our
home, we could have all been ripped apart, and
it is not over yet. I thank my God that He has set up
a throne in this home, and He is the Head, the Lord
of this little castle.

 

[qwerty]

This is the portion of Eph. 5 that the dominant males tend to UNDER-emphasize.

EPH 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

You hear a lot from dominant males about females submitting, but you hear very little from them about their example of love, and how it looks very much like the love of Jesus.

The Apostle Paul is focused on Jesus in the passage about husbands and wives. He basically says this:
___________________
Husbands, your focus should be on Jesus. Treat your wife like Jesus treats the church, His Bride. Love your wife like Jesus loves the church, His Bride. Husbands, don't act like a tyrant in the home, because that doesn't look like Jesus, and it makes it very difficult for your wife to focus on Jesus, and submit to you.

Wives, your focus should be on Jesus. As your husband acts like Jesus in the home, you will find that you can submit to your husband, because someday you will be married to Jesus, as His Bride.
And by the way, even though it is a profound mystery, Jesus is getting married. Can you see the verse that I quoted from Genesis, and said that it was about Jesus, the Bridegroom, and His Bride. Incredible, yes, but true. Jesus is getting married.
Now, back to you, human husband and wife:

Husbands, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

By doing this you show that you understand what Jeuss is doing now. He is at this very moment preparing a place for His Bride. He will return when the place He is preparing is finished.
___________________

The church we know of today, that we are part of, is the Body of Christ, which is the Bride of the Lord Jesus. The Bride is basically invisible today, because Jesus isn't seen much either in His church. If you are interested, read Psalm 45, and see the relationship between Jesus and the Bride. When Jesus is visible in all of His glory, then the Bride will be visible.
We know that Psalm 45 is referring to Jesus because Hebrews 1 tells us this.

 

[Abiyah]

Having read the rest of the posts here, and eaten
lunch , perhaps I should quote a Scripture. In
one place, the Scriptures clearly state that our
Lord is the head of every man, the man is the head
of A woman, and our God is the head of our Lord.
Then, we have the one used here, which says (NASB)
"For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ
also is the head of the church . . . ."

Is the man of the house in a marriage? Yes.
Who is the head of the man? Our Lord.
Who, then, is the head of the house? Our Lord.

If the Lord is not the Head, the house doesn't have
proper headship. If the Lord is head of the house,
the husband will know his place and what he is to
do to maintain and serve in it.

From an early age, I saw, and have lived in, homes
in which our Lord did not have His rightful place
as Head of the house. As a child, if He had a place
in our home, it was a very tiny, cramped place,
and I never saw Him in it. Result: my mother ran
rough-shod over my father and the rest of us.
Was our Lord truly head of the house there? No.
Was my father the head of his wife there? No.

As a young woman, I saw one friend marry what
she thought was a believing man, but for her,
intimacy brought bruises and wounds.
Was our Lord thehead of the house there? No.
Was the husband head of the wife there? Yes.

I could give other examples, but I won't.

[ October 27, 2003, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

[Abiyah]

I am sorry - I keep getting phone calls! This is what
I intended to write, but it will not allow me to edit:

Having read the rest of the posts here, and eaten
lunch , perhaps I should quote a Scripture. In
one place, the Scriptures clearly state that our
Lord is the head of every man, the man is the head
of A woman, and our God is the head of our Lord.
Then, we have the one used here, which says
(NASB) "For the husband is the head of the wife, as
Christ also is the head of the church . . . ."

Is the man of the wife in a marriage? Yes.
Who is the head of the man? Our Lord.
Who, then, is the head of the house? Our Lord.

If the Lord is not the Head, the house doesn't have
proper headship. If the Lord is head of the house,
the husband will know his place and what he is to
do to maintain and serve in it.

From an early age, I saw, and have lived in, homes
in which our Lord did not have His rightful place
as Head of the house. As a child, if He had a place
in our home, it was a very tiny, cramped place,
and I never saw Him in it. Result: my mother ran
rough-shod over my father and the rest of us.
Was our Lord truly head of the house there? No.
Was my father the head of his wife there? No.

As a young woman, I saw one friend marry what
she thought was a believing man, but for her,
intimacy brought bruises and wounds.
Was our Lord thehead of the house there? No.
Was the husband head of the wife there? Yes.

I could give other examples, but I won't.

Please note that the verse I mentioned first says
that the man is the head of A woman, not that
men are heads of women. This is a matter of
confusion for SOME men.

 

[Eladar]

The Bible says
that the husband is the head of the wife; who, then,
is head of the husband? If the husband has
followed the mandates of the Word, then our Lord
is the head of him, making the Lord the head of the
house.

I wrote earlier in this thread that I would not want to
be in a house in which our Lord was not the Head
of the home.

Yes, if the husband is a Christian, then God will be the head. Yet I don't see that distinction being made. No where do I see it written that the husband is only to be the head if he is a Christian. Quite the contrary, it seems to be a blanket statement for all husbands.

I agree that Christians should be married to other Christians.