Women aren't second-class believers

[Eladar]

I guess you don't seem to understand that many I have known attended church every Sunday. One I knew whose husband was in seminary.

All this means is that men whose behavior demonstrates they are going to hell attend church every Sunday and are in seminary.

I don't think there is much of a surprise there.

If these men will not use self control then perhaps they need to fall under the control of the police to wake them up.

It's possible. God works in many ways.

Sometime you need to take a trip to a woman's shelter and listen to them and then see some of the pictures of battered women. Then take a visit to the district attorney's office. Sometime sit in a counseling session with a woman who has had her face mangled and her head split open.

So are we to trust in God or are we to trust in men?

The point I was making is that men who beat their wives would never do the same thing to another man. They in fact are cowards. These men must be put in a situation where their behavior will not be tolerated.

Which is worse, a coward who is going to hell or a brave man who is going to hell? You seem to believe it is worse to be a coward.

Your view is very materialistic.

Do you have a problem with God's command that a man who rapes a woman is to be punished by having to marry her?

So are you saying that when Hitler came into power that what the rest of the world should have done was to overlook the Holocaust and just let it go on? Is that the kind of God you know? Is the kind of God you know one who does not uphold the righteous and help those who stand against injustices?

God works in mysterious ways. All I know is how Jesus instructs us to live.

Are you also saying that if two of your students get into a fight you would stand by and pray and let them slug it out?

No, I'd break it up. That is my job. I don't see how that really applies. It isn't like I'm the one taking a shot at a kid.

If there was one who was a bully would you tell the other student to "turn the other cheek?"

No, I'm not allowed to preach religion to the students. I work at a government school.

You have displayed a gross misunderstanding by your ignorance of that saying in scripture. You need to do some studying before you try to perpetuate your ignorance.

Well then, you tell me what Jesus meant by "turn the other cheek".

[ October 27, 2003, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: Eladar ]

 

[Curly Fries]

Originally posted by Eladar:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What are your thoughts about it? Do you always turn the other cheek when someone abuses you? Should someone who is being abused over and over again keep turning the other cheek?

BTW, "so that abuse may continue" sounds a bit strange. It looks like an unfortunate choice of words.

What do you think Jesus meant by turn the other cheek? It seems rather clear to me that it so that the person can strike you again. In other words, so that the physical abuse can continue.

My perspective is that what happens to us is not important. It is how we react that is important. Jesus teaches peace, which in this world means being walked all over.

God will take care of us. If that means by death, as in Stephen's case, so be it. </font>[/QUOTE]OK, what if some (bad) person hits someone, or even starts really beating that person, and I am right there and can see all this happening. What should I do then as a Christian? Watch that person turn the other cheek and be hit again?

 

[Eladar]

I'll answer that question after you answer mine.

What are your thoughts on "turn the other cheek".

It really does seem to get ignored by so many professing Christians. 'Let's pretend as if Jesus really didn't say that'.

 

[Curly Fries]

Originally posted by Eladar:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Could you please list a few Bible passages that support what you say?
As far as I know from reading the Bible, Christian wife is free, in certain situations, to leave an unbelieving husband. I do not believe a husband that goes on abusing his wife is a Christian.

Would you please site the passage that states a woman is to leave her husband based on physical abuse. There is one for sexual immorality, but not for abuse.
</font>[/QUOTE]What about Romans 7:10-16. A husband who is constantly abusing his wife, does not sound like a husband who "is willing to live with her".

Situation is different if a husband is a believer, but then again I would question faith of an unrepentantly abusive husband.

 

[Eladar]

10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this applies.

 

[Curly Fries]

Originally posted by Eladar:
I'm sorry, but I don't see how this applies.

Oops, was supposed to be 1 Cor 7:10-16

 

[Curly Fries]

Originally posted by Eladar:
I'll answer that question after you answer mine.

What are your thoughts on "turn the other cheek".

It really does seem to get ignored by so many professing Christians. 'Let's pretend as if Jesus really didn't say that'.

Mat 5:39 teaches us a valid principle. Paul gives an example how it should be applied in 1 Cor. 6:7.

What about Mat. 5:29-30? When was the last time that you have applied it literally?

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Eladar:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I guess you don't seem to understand that many I have known attended church every Sunday. One I knew whose husband was in seminary.

All this means is that men whose behavior demonstrates they are going to hell attend church every Sunday and are in seminary.

I don't think there is much of a surprise there.

If these men will not use self control then perhaps they need to fall under the control of the police to wake them up.

It's possible. God works in many ways.

Sometime you need to take a trip to a woman's shelter and listen to them and then see some of the pictures of battered women. Then take a visit to the district attorney's office. Sometime sit in a counseling session with a woman who has had her face mangled and her head split open.

So are we to trust in God or are we to trust in men?

The point I was making is that men who beat their wives would never do the same thing to another man. They in fact are cowards. These men must be put in a situation where their behavior will not be tolerated.

Which is worse, a coward who is going to hell or a brave man who is going to hell? You seem to believe it is worse to be a coward.

Your view is very materialistic.

Do you have a problem with God's command that a man who rapes a woman is to be punished by having to marry her?

So are you saying that when Hitler came into power that what the rest of the world should have done was to overlook the Holocaust and just let it go on? Is that the kind of God you know? Is the kind of God you know one who does not uphold the righteous and help those who stand against injustices?

God works in mysterious ways. All I know is how Jesus instructs us to live.

Are you also saying that if two of your students get into a fight you would stand by and pray and let them slug it out?

No, I'd break it up. That is my job. I don't see how that really applies. It isn't like I'm the one taking a shot at a kid.

If there was one who was a bully would you tell the other student to "turn the other cheek?"

No, I'm not allowed to preach religion to the students. I work at a government school.

You have displayed a gross misunderstanding by your ignorance of that saying in scripture. You need to do some studying before you try to perpetuate your ignorance.

Well then, you tell me what Jesus meant by "turn the other cheek". </font>[/QUOTE]When I was a teacher I never tolerated disrespect toward me or any other student. Abuse is the lowest form of disrespect. We have laws against abuse. A little fear goes a long way.

Well I guess you let the government control you in who you witness to and your actions rather than scripture. Who is your God? Are you silenced by your perceived notion of the government? FYI, you can share your faith anytime a student asks. When I taught in the public high school I had plenty of opportunities.

Come on, you talk about how a woman is to just sit there and let her abuser abuse her more. Then you are a coward to take a stance for Christ in the public school. You are surrounded by pagans. Where's your witness? Is your job more inmportant than Christ and your witness. It was illegal to witness in countries under communist rule but the Christians still did. In one of the countries I am familiar with the Christians now can have a public school assembly to share Christ.They were in bondage but are now free. The Christians there did not abide by the "don't witness" law. When I taught high school I prayed for opportunites. Students would ask me publically and privately about what I believed. What opportunities I was given! My classes almost doubled in size too during that same time. You need to screw up some courage to have a voice and not be silenced by the world. Sounds like you are one of those kind who says leave it up to God when the holy Spirit gives you wisdom and a brain to use along with the courage you need.

How does your theology fit in with the task of the prophets that God gave to them?

You accuse me of being materialistic. I did at one time believe exactly what you did until I began to see the habits of abusive men and the counsel I recieved from those who dealt with them. Abusive men have a sickness that they must face and take responsibility for. Until they look God in the face and repent they will not get better. But until that time they must be dealt with. I have seen what happens when the wives come back home early and see the repeat of the behaviors. On one occasion I told both the man and his wife what they needed to do and how he must face his behavior. Neither of them did as I insructed and they repeated the behaviors again. Finally she had enough and left. She left for good to never return. I had instructed both of them to separate and to get help. I recommended someone who dealt with these situations a lot. I never recommend divorce but often recommend separation for physical abuse. The state will tell you that any time there is physical abuse and some other forms of abuse and children are present they can come and take the children from the home.

So are you advocating that once the state finds out that the children be removed. Or would you suggest the abuser leave and get help before returning to the home with his chiodren.

I have seen relationships healed if they do what they need to do. It is painful to be humble and admit wrongs. But it must happen before God can heal.

If you were to give the advice you have written and were a pastor or counselor you could be held liable for misconduct as a pastor.


I can assure you that when you begin to get involved in the lives of women who have been beaten by their husbands you will change your perspective.

I noticed how you did not respond to my story of living in an abusive home. My dad did quit when I stood up to him. Should a child ever have to do that. I can remember many time waking up in the middle of the night hearing my mother screaming. I have physical scars to prove what happened to me. I know first hand what that stuff is like.

I wished that the police had taken action against my dad. Maybe my parents would still be married today. My mom finally left him. He hasn't changed much at all. He still blames the problems of his hands on her.

I'd like to know your response to that dilemma. My mother was counseled to hang in while she was beaten in hope of him changing. He changed his actions fast when I stood in his face one day. He has never changed his attitude though.

In answer to your questiuon about turning the other cheek take a look at http://www.gospelcom.net/eword/comments/matthew/four/matthew5.htm

In Acts 20 Paul leaves the elders from Ephesus with some instructions, Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."

You don't make God the Holy Spirit the overseer. He has made you the overseer. The responsibility of the overseer is to care for the flock.

 

[Eladar]

Well I guess you let the government control you in who you witness to and your actions rather than scripture. Who is your God? Are you silenced by your perceived notion of the government? FYI, you can share your faith anytime a student asks. When I taught in the public high school I had plenty of opportunities.

When you have no scriptural support for your position, it is a good tactic to side step the issue and attack the other person.

It doesn't deal with the topic, but it is a good tactic.

I did at one time believe exactly what you did until I began to see the habits of abusive men and the counsel I recieved from those who dealt with them.

No, I don't think you do or ever did. You believe that men who practice abuse and continue to do so could be going to heaven.

I would suggest you find scripture to support your position.

 

[Abiyah]

GB, Curly, Gina, and Ben --

While I may have started this thread with one inten-
tion, I am glad for the turn it has taken. Thank you
for writing what you have written. GB, for your
good godly sense, understanding, and Scriptures,
and for your wilingness to actively 'do something';
Curly, for your questions and Scriptures; Gina,
for your hard-hitting post based upon understand-
ing; Ben, because you started this and because
you 'do something.' Please pardon me if I have
missed anyone.

And Frank, since you asked a question, although I
believe it was answered, here is my answer:

Originally posted by Frank:
Elnora:

What constitutes abuse? By what standard do you make this judgment? Does that change I Cor. 11:3 and Ephesians 5? If so, how? And, book, chapter and verse, please. Your argument is without biblical foundation. There is no divine inspired evidence to support your assertion.

A plain definition of abuse, to me, is anything one
human being does to another in order to take away
that one's personal power, to belittle that person,
or to diminishes their perception of him/herself.
Now, I recognize that we can all be guilty of doing
this at one time or another, whether intentionally or
not, but persistence in this kind of activity is, in
my opinion, high-hand-in-the-face-of-our-God
abuse of one He has made in His image.

Some specific abuses of a married adult against
the spouse would include name-calling, striking,
yelling (at that one with the intent of coercing,
diminishing, overpowering), stalking, removal of
that spouse's normal human privileges, sexual
assault, physically restraining that spouse
against his/her will, emotionally diminishing
him/her with deliberately-hurtful words, and
much more.

Our God has told us how we are to treat one
another. There is not room enough or time enough
for one to write out all the Scriptural references
to these.

Taking one of your references posted in your note,
NASB: ". . . Christ is the head of every man, and the
man is the head of a woman . . . ." In verse one of
that chapter, Paul writes to be imitators of himself
in the way that he imitates our Lord. If a person
can imagine our Lord belittling His spouse,
beating her, deliberately diminishing her, etc.,
then we have a reason to allow abuse. However,
if He is, indeed, the head of that man, it will not
happen.

 

[Eladar]

Some specific abuses of a married adult against
the spouse would include name-calling, striking,
yelling (at that one with the intent of coercing,
diminishing, overpowering), stalking, removal of
that spouse's normal human privileges, sexual
assault, physically restraining that spouse
against his/her will, emotionally diminishing
him/her with deliberately-hurtful words, and
much more.

I take it that withholding sex would fit under your 'much more'.

 

[Eladar]

I take it that you believe in the woman or man's right use sex as a way to manipulate the situation.

 

[Abiyah]

After your Very Inappropriate post to me in the other thread, I became curious about these last two posts, which I knew came in succession after my post. Although I have not read your other posts here, what you have written in these is disgusting, ugly, and SICK! I would appreciate it if you would just pretend I do not exist and not post anything more to me, public or otherwise. Bluntly, I have never been so insulted or appalled. May the LORD judge you, not I.

 

[gb93433]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Eladar:

Well I guess you let the government control you in who you witness to and your actions rather than scripture. Who is your God? Are you silenced by your perceived notion of the government? FYI, you can share your faith anytime a student asks. When I taught in the public high school I had plenty of opportunities.

When you have no scriptural support for your position, it is a good tactic to side step the issue and attack the other person.

I was simply responding to what you had stated about your being a government employee. I had the impression that you are what is called a professional pacifist and I have been in your profession and as a pastor. But the link I gave you provided an explanation of the passage about turning the other cheek.. I will give you another, "Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong." Did you read the link I gave you on "turning the other cheek?"

Perhaps you need to take a look at the passage of scripture when the disciples were told not to preach Jesus and they refused to yield to that exhortation..


It doesn't deal with the topic, but it is a good tactic.

I did at one time believe exactly what you did until I began to see the habits of abusive men and the counsel I received from those who dealt with them.

No, I don't think you do or ever did. You believe that men who practice abuse and continue to do so could be going to heaven.

How did you ever arrive at this conclusion?. Pay me a visit and I will let you talk with two ladies who have been abused that I know about just in the last six months.. I have been dealing with these kinds of situations for about 20 years now. I will even take you with me and let you hear their stories. Sometime read the Bible and take a look at Moses. Paul, Peter and David. Moses murdered a man. Peter cut off a man’s ear. Paul persecuted Christians. David had a man killed so he cold have the man’s wife. Are they going to heaven? I cannot judge their salvation but I can judge their actions that are so obvious.

I would suggest you find scripture to support your position.

Have you read the other posts directed at you also? Does practical advice always need a chapter and verse? When the writer in James 1:5 talks about wisdom he would indicate otherwise.. Look up the lexical meaning of wisdom and determine for yourself what it is.

From one of the earlier posts where I noticed that you did not take into consideration the correct interpretation in light of its historical context the passage about turning the other cheek, I gave you a link to an explanation of that passage and from what I can tell you ignored it by your lack of response for or against the explanation given. Why give more scripture when you don’t have a handle on the first passage. Just take a look at the context.

The next time I read a post from you I would like to hear that you have sought the counsel of your pastor and visited a woman’s shelter and visited a district attorney that handles abuse cases.
You might even ask a police officer who is a Christian about abuse cases too. Scripture says that a wise man has many counselors. Will you be one who is wise and seeks the advice of those who deal with abuse cases?

Let me ask you more of a personal question. Have you actually dealt with any abuse cases? Have you ever talked with an abuser that has gotten help and has straightened his life out? When you talk with the abuser and abused you will understand scripture better too. Until that time I don’t think you will ever fully understand the importance of righteousness and standing for the abused and under privileged.

Scripture has loads of principles. Take a look at how we are to care for the least in society in James 1:27, “Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. These people are the least able to provide for themselves.

So now that I have read your point of view what practical steps would you take with someone who abuses his wife and/or children? I am wating to hear your practical advice. You have hard from me now I would like to hear from you.

 

[Gina B]

By "turning the other cheek" we have no reason to believe that women and children being physically hit by men were being addressed.
So anyhow al...whatever your name was...what about after?
Say my husband punches me in the face and breaks my jaw. I decide to be a good christian girl and turn to the other side so he can hit me again, which he does. I now have a broken jaw and a broken nose.
So...now he has sinned according to the bible AND according to the state. Stay until the next episode, or have him arrested and stay away from him until he can control himself? (which would probably be never)
I'm having a hard time believing you're for real, but just in case...
Gina

 

[Eladar]

By "turning the other cheek" we have no reason to believe that women and children being physically hit by men were being addressed.
So anyhow al...whatever your name was...what about after?

Vengence belongs to the Lord. Your husband can burn in hell.

 

[Eladar]

5:39 but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil1: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also2.
But I say unto you, resist not him that is evil. This command which enjoins non-resistance, like most of the other precepts of this sermon, does not demand of absolute, unqualified pacivity at all times and under all circumstances. In fact, we may say generally of the whole sermon on the mount that it is not a code for slaves, but an assertion of principles which are to be interpreted and applied by the children of freedom. We are to submit to evil for principle's sake and to accomplish spiritual victories, and not in an abject, servile spirit as blind followers of a harsh and exacting law. On the contrary, taking the principle, we judge when and how to apply it as best we can. Absolute non-resistance may so far encourage crime as to become a sin. As in the case of the precept about swearing just above, Jesus distributes the universal prohibition by the specification of certain examples, which in this case are three in number.
But whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. This first example is taken from the realm of physical violence. The example given, a slap in the face, has been regarded as a gross insult in all ages, but it is not an assault which imperils life. We find this precept illustrated by the conduct of the Master himself. He did not literally turn the other cheek to be smitten, but breathed forth a mild and gentle reproof where he might have avenged himself by the sudden death of his adversary (John 18:22,23). The example of Paul also is given, but it is not so perfect as that of the Master (Acts 23:2-5). Self-preservation is a law of God giving rights which, under most circumstances, a Christian can claim. He may resist the robber, the assassin and all men of that ilk, and may protect his person and his possessions against the assaults of the violent and lawless (Acts 16:35-39). But when the honor of Christ and the salvation of man demands it, he should observe this commandment even unto the very letter.

Self preservation is not a law of God giving rights. It is the fear of death and belief that what happens in this world is more important than what will happen in all eternity.

We have no control over what others do. We do have control over what we will do. God will not judge us based on what others do, we will be judged based on how we respond.

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by Eladar:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> By "turning the other cheek" we have no reason to believe that women and children being physically hit by men were being addressed.
So anyhow al...whatever your name was...what about after?

Vengence belongs to the Lord. Your husband can burn in hell. </font>[/QUOTE]That's all well and good, but preventing it from happening again by either having him arrested or by leaving the situation until he can modify his behavior isn't vengence, it's keeping yourself and/or your family safe. (and helping to prevent his own sin from repeating)
Gina

 

[Eladar]

That's all well and good, but preventing it from happening again by either having him arrested or by leaving the situation until he can modify his behavior isn't vengence, it's keeping yourself and/or your family safe. (and helping to prevent his own sin from repeating)
Gina

It isn't the action that will lead him to hell. It is what is wrong with his heart that will lead him to hell.

What I think would be a best first approach would be to deal with it through the church. If the church does nothing, then you know that this church isn't one that you should be attending.

I agree that in order to insure one's safety one should have the guy arrested. Yet if one is doing this, then one is not trusting in God.

I'm just wondering if there is something wrong if one is not willing to trust in God. I wondering if we might be missing something if we think that our safety is the most important thing.

I don't find the instruction to leave if abused in the Bible. I find the instruction to leave over adultry, not over physical abuse.

How much of this is our societal values working its way into out belief system?

 

[Abiyah]

Well, now that I am back to reading all the posts,
repenting of my attitude toward Eladar, whether or
not it was warranted, I have to agree with part of
Eladar's statement: that we who turn to the police
for help do so because we are not fully trusting in
our God to take care of the situation.

By the same token, it is time for all believers to
stop trusting in the "arm of flesh" for: </font>

• eye care (Get rid of those glasses!)</font>
• dental care (Stop getting your teeth filled and cleaned!)</font>
• medical (Leave that cancer alone!)</font>
• counseling (If you are depressed, you are doing something wrong! Buck up and get over it!)</font>

. . . And we could take this a lot further!