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Women at the pulpit

A

atestring

New Member
Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atestring:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:
I think the Bible makes it clear that the shepherds and elders should be men.
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What If I said this is a "strawman" argument?
You have not bible Reference in this post to back up your statement. </font>[/QUOTE]Still on the straw man thing? Did you not ever understand what was meant by that? It's the name for a logical fallacy. If you said that to what I say here, it would not make sense because I am not making a straw man argument.

Is one only allowed to post a view if Bible verses are used to back it up? If so, we better delete a lot of posts!
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I think it's a lot of verses -- too many to post. It's an argument developed from several passages, such as only nameing men as overseers and shepherds, and the stating that the husband is the spiritual head.

Adam's headship is illustrated in many ways in the creation account. For example, as soon as the woman was created, Adam named the woman: "She shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man" (Gen. 2:23). This is significant, because to name someone or something in ancient times implied having authority over the one named (e.g., Gen. 17:5; 2 Kings 23:34; Dan. 1:7).

It is also highly revealing that when God gave instructions about moral responsibility, He gave these instructions to Adam (Gen. 2:16-17). And after the Fall, God first summoned Adam, not Eve, even though she was the one who had led him into sin. "Adam, where are you?" God said immediately following the Fall (Gen. 3:9). In Romans 5:12, Adam was held solely responsible for the Fall, even though Eve played a significant role.

Certainly one of Adam's failures in the Fall was his abdication of responsibility for leadership. Instead of obeying God and leading his wife, he disobeyed God and followed his wife's lead (by eating the fruit). For this reason, God begins His sentence against Adam, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife" (Gen. 3:17). In the Fall, therefore, God's intended order of authority was reversed. As Gordon Wenham puts it, "Eve listened to the serpent instead of Adam; Adam listened to Eve instead of God."
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0136a.html
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I don't believe in dividing over this issue. </font>[/QUOTE]I understand about a logical fallacy.
I simply made an anology that you labeled Straw man and called a logical fallacy.
I think that your attitude about this was ARROGANT!
 
Marcia

Marcia

Active Member
Atestring, how is my statement a logical fallacy?

I am just not following your point. Are you saying that this statement I made is a logical fallacy?
I think the Bible makes it clear that the shepherds and elders should be men.
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Please clarify. Not giving references does not make it a straw man. You still don't seem to understand what a straw man fallacy is.
 
A

atestring

New Member
Originally posted by Marcia:
Atestring, how is my statement a logical fallacy?

I am just not following your point. Are you saying that this statement I made is a logical fallacy?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I think the Bible makes it clear that the shepherds and elders should be men.
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Please clarify. Not giving references does not make it a straw man. You still don't seem to understand what a straw man fallacy is. </font>[/QUOTE]I understand what a straw man is.
You accused me earlier and it was just an arrogant statement by you.
I will no longer respond to you without an apology from you.
Your arrogance sickens me!
 
Marcia

Marcia

Active Member
Atestring, you posted a comment in an ongoing discussion that was a straw man fallacy. I merely called it for what it was. I did not call you any names; I said your argument was a straw man.

That is not a personal remark and it was based on a fact, so I don't think I need to apologize. You took it personally for some reason.

You are now calling me arrogant. I could go on and on about that and demand an apology but I won't because it's not worth the time or energy.

If I offended you, I am sorry.
 
A

atestring

New Member
Originally posted by Marcia:
Atestring, you posted a comment in an ongoing discussion that was a straw man fallacy. I merely called it for what it was. I did not call you any names; I said your argument was a straw man.

That is not a personal remark and it was based on a fact, so I don't think I need to apologize. You took it personally for some reason.

You are now calling me arrogant. I could go on and on about that and demand an apology but I won't because it's not worth the time or energy.

If I offended you, I am sorry.
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You did offend me. i forgive you.
 
J

Joseph_Botwinick

<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by PastorGreg:
It's not just the serving as a pastor that is forbidden in Scripture but the teaching of men in a spiritual context.
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If you take a look at the context of the time of the OT and NT women would be ruled out today in every high school youth ministry. </font>[/QUOTE]I would only point out that there are several instances in the Bible where women served as spiritual and military leaders and seemed to do so with the blessing of God. So, while this may hae been the context of the culture of the time, the context of the Bible itself, taken as a whole, does not necessarily reflect totally the context of the culture. In fact, at times, it seems to go against the culture.

As for my personal opinion, I go back and forth about what I think about this. I was once strongly against the idea. Then, I was once strongly in favor of the idea. And now, I am just not sure what I think.

Joseph Botwinick
 
E

El_Guero

New Member
I used to go back and forth, and then I just took Him at His Word ...

Life is SO MUCH EASIER that way. I don't have to postulate an idea and make scripture fit MY idea(s)...
 
M

music4Him

New Member
Originally posted by MasterWalk:
I see nothing wrong with a woman teaching a Sunday School class or a Bible study class. But pastoring a church? NO!
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MasterWalk,
When you posted this reply you made me think.

So here is a few questions.
( Yes or No ) (1.) Is it ok for a woman to teach Sunday School class for the adults (men and women)?
( Yes or No ) (2.) Is it ok for a woman to teach the Wednesday night Bible study class that consist of men and women?
( Yes or No ) (3.) Is it ok for a woman (if she holds a ministry license) to preach behind the pulpit during a regular Sunday (morning or night) church service. Take into consideration that she is not pastoring the church but only serving for one service. (guest speaker sort of thing)
 
S

ScottEmerson

Active Member
We know that there was at least one female deacon and that there was one female apostle (Phoebe and Junia), both receiving God's blessing. II John is written to the leader of the church, who is, a lady (whose name we don't know.) Women are encouraged to pray and prophesy in the assembly in I Corinthians 12. We know that in Christ there is no male or female. We also know that Eve was created as Adam's equal (helpmeet in Hebrew has the connotation of equal.)

When we have a contradiction such as this, the hard part is figuring out which side to be on. I think the easiest way to understand this issue is that there were some churches where women were trying to take over, and Paul had to instruct young preachers like Titus and Timothy to tell them to basically sit down and shut up. Anyone who has heard Beth Moore or Anne Graham Lotz recognizes the Spirit in these ladies and the gift they have to preach.
 
M

music4Him

New Member
Bump........

quote by Music4Him:
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So here is a few questions.
( Yes or No ) (1.) Is it ok for a woman to teach Sunday School class for the adults (men and women)?
( Yes or No ) (2.) Is it ok for a woman to teach the Wednesday night Bible study class that consist of men and women?
( Yes or No ) (3.) Is it ok for a woman (if she holds a ministry license) to preach behind the pulpit during a regular Sunday (morning or night) church service. Take into consideration that she is not pastoring the church but only serving for one service. (guest speaker sort of thing)
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