Women Deacons

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
Deacons are servants, not leaders. Usurping authority (playing the master) would require a position of leadership.

Most Greek scholars say the sentence structure is referring to women as deacons, not women in general, nor wives of deacons.

That's the point!

The problem is that in some of our churches we have erred and allowed the Deacon Board to usurp authority that it was never intended to possess. In effect we have Deacons who actually function as Elders. This is not what the Bible teaches regarding the two offices.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Bible-boy:
The problem is that in some of our churches we have erred and allowed the Deacon Board to usurp authority that it was never intended to possess. In effect we have Deacons who actually function as Elders. This is not what the Bible teaches regarding the two offices.

Many do not even meet the most basic qualifications and yet they try to run the church.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I do think it's interesting that there are standards even for the servants. Usually, people think that servants are the lowest of the low, in every aspect.

 

[Linda64]

(Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bibleavid Cloud, Article: Deacon
DEACON

The N.T. Greek word for deacon-diakonos-simply means "servant." Consider the following definition by W.E. Vine: "Diakonos ... primarily denotes a servant, whether as doing servile work, or as an attendant rendering free service, without particular reference to its character. The word is probably connected with the verb `dioko,' to hasten after, pursue (perhaps originally said of a runner)."

USAGE OF THE WORD "DEACON." For practical purposes we can say that the term "deacon" is used in the N.T. primarily in two ways:

1. Deacon refers to Christian workers in general. In the following verses diakonos is translated "minister": Ro 16:1; 1Co 3:5; Ro 16:1; 2Co 3:4,6; 11:23; Eph 3:7; Col 1:23; 1Th 3:2; and 1Ti 4:6. Diakonos is translated "servant" in Col 4:12. In all of these verses the Greek word diakonos is used, and in each case the reference is to Gospel preachers and Christian workers in general. In this sense, we see that the Apostle Paul, Timothy, Epaphras, and other preachers were called "deacons." Yea, every Christian is to be a deacon, a servant, in this general sense-a servant of Christ, a minister of the Gospel to a lost world of men, a humble worker in the church.

2. Deacon also refers to a certain office in the church. The work of a deacon, in the general sense of being a servant to Christ and the church, is that of every Christian; but there is also the office of a deacon spoken of in the N.T.-an office with definite and high standards, and an office which only properly qualified and chosen Christians are to hold (Php 1:1; 1Ti 3:13). It is in this sense that the word "deacon" is most commonly used today.

WOMEN DEACONS? The example of Phebe in Ro 16:1 is an illustration of how women can be deacons in the general sense-that of being servants to the church and ministers of Christ. Only men, though, can hold the office of deacon. The qualifications require that the deacon "be the husband of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well" (1Ti 3:12). This standard is consistent with the N.T. teaching forbidding women to hold positions of leadership over men in the church or home. Though the office of a deacon is not a position of leadership in the sense that the office of a pastor is, the deacons are indeed to be men of high spiritual stature and are looked upon by the other church members and by outsiders as spiritual leaders.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bible-boy:
The problem is that in some of our churches we have erred and allowed the Deacon Board to usurp authority that it was never intended to possess. In effect we have Deacons who actually function as Elders. This is not what the Bible teaches regarding the two offices.

Many do not even meet the most basic qualifications and yet they try to run the church. </font>[/QUOTE]Yep, I served in a small church once that had a deacon who was divorced, two of his teenaged daughters were with child outside of marriage, etc. Basically, his family and home life were a mess. Clearly his home was not in order according to the qualifications for a deacon found in 1 Tim. 3:12. He held the church's checkbook and the deacons (all related by blood or marriage) ran the church.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Linda64:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />(Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bibleavid Cloud, Article: Deacon
DEACON

The N.T. Greek word for deacon-diakonos-simply means "servant." Consider the following definition by W.E. Vine: "Diakonos ... primarily denotes a servant, whether as doing servile work, or as an attendant rendering free service, without particular reference to its character. The word is probably connected with the verb `dioko,' to hasten after, pursue (perhaps originally said of a runner)."

USAGE OF THE WORD "DEACON." For practical purposes we can say that the term "deacon" is used in the N.T. primarily in two ways:

1. Deacon refers to Christian workers in general. In the following verses diakonos is translated "minister": Ro 16:1; 1Co 3:5; Ro 16:1; 2Co 3:4,6; 11:23; Eph 3:7; Col 1:23; 1Th 3:2; and 1Ti 4:6. Diakonos is translated "servant" in Col 4:12. In all of these verses the Greek word diakonos is used, and in each case the reference is to Gospel preachers and Christian workers in general. In this sense, we see that the Apostle Paul, Timothy, Epaphras, and other preachers were called "deacons." Yea, every Christian is to be a deacon, a servant, in this general sense-a servant of Christ, a minister of the Gospel to a lost world of men, a humble worker in the church.

2. Deacon also refers to a certain office in the church. The work of a deacon, in the general sense of being a servant to Christ and the church, is that of every Christian; but there is also the office of a deacon spoken of in the N.T.-an office with definite and high standards, and an office which only properly qualified and chosen Christians are to hold (Php 1:1; 1Ti 3:13). It is in this sense that the word "deacon" is most commonly used today.

WOMEN DEACONS? The example of Phebe in Ro 16:1 is an illustration of how women can be deacons in the general sense-that of being servants to the church and ministers of Christ. Only men, though, can hold the office of deacon. The qualifications require that the deacon "be the husband of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well" (1Ti 3:12). This standard is consistent with the N.T. teaching forbidding women to hold positions of leadership over men in the church or home. Though the office of a deacon is not a position of leadership in the sense that the office of a pastor is, the deacons are indeed to be men of high spiritual stature and are looked upon by the other church members and by outsiders as spiritual leaders.

</font>[/QUOTE]However, Brother Cloud has neglected to consider the fact that if deacons are turely servants of the church and as such carry no authority then there is no conflict with the rest of Scripture. Notice that the 1 Tim. passage makes no mention of those who hold the office of deacon being able to preach or teach. Here is the key that unlocks any supposed conflict with Paul's teaching in 1 Cor. 11:3 or 1 Tim. 2:11-12. Properly understood deacons (those who hold the office of deacon) are not to have any authority within the leadership of the local church. They simply serve the body under the authority of and at the direction of the Elders.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Bible Boy: Yep!

A deacon should not really hold the checkbook either. The bishop (or overseer) is the one who should do that. The original meaning of that word had to do with one who oversaw the affairs of, particularly of financial matters.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Bible-boy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Linda64:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />(Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bibleavid Cloud, Article: Deacon
DEACON

The N.T. Greek word for deacon-diakonos-simply means "servant." Consider the following definition by W.E. Vine: "Diakonos ... primarily denotes a servant, whether as doing servile work, or as an attendant rendering free service, without particular reference to its character. The word is probably connected with the verb `dioko,' to hasten after, pursue (perhaps originally said of a runner)."

USAGE OF THE WORD "DEACON." For practical purposes we can say that the term "deacon" is used in the N.T. primarily in two ways:

1. Deacon refers to Christian workers in general. In the following verses diakonos is translated "minister": Ro 16:1; 1Co 3:5; Ro 16:1; 2Co 3:4,6; 11:23; Eph 3:7; Col 1:23; 1Th 3:2; and 1Ti 4:6. Diakonos is translated "servant" in Col 4:12. In all of these verses the Greek word diakonos is used, and in each case the reference is to Gospel preachers and Christian workers in general. In this sense, we see that the Apostle Paul, Timothy, Epaphras, and other preachers were called "deacons." Yea, every Christian is to be a deacon, a servant, in this general sense-a servant of Christ, a minister of the Gospel to a lost world of men, a humble worker in the church.

2. Deacon also refers to a certain office in the church. The work of a deacon, in the general sense of being a servant to Christ and the church, is that of every Christian; but there is also the office of a deacon spoken of in the N.T.-an office with definite and high standards, and an office which only properly qualified and chosen Christians are to hold (Php 1:1; 1Ti 3:13). It is in this sense that the word "deacon" is most commonly used today.

WOMEN DEACONS? The example of Phebe in Ro 16:1 is an illustration of how women can be deacons in the general sense-that of being servants to the church and ministers of Christ. Only men, though, can hold the office of deacon. The qualifications require that the deacon "be the husband of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well" (1Ti 3:12). This standard is consistent with the N.T. teaching forbidding women to hold positions of leadership over men in the church or home. Though the office of a deacon is not a position of leadership in the sense that the office of a pastor is, the deacons are indeed to be men of high spiritual stature and are looked upon by the other church members and by outsiders as spiritual leaders.

</font>[/QUOTE]However, Brother Cloud has neglected to consider the fact that if deacons are turely servants of the church and as such carry no authority then there is no conflict with the rest of Scripture. Notice that the 1 Tim. passage makes no mention of those who hold the office of deacon being able to preach or teach. Here is the key that unlocks any supposed conflict with Paul's teaching in 1 Cor. 11:3 or 1 Tim. 2:11-12. Properly understood deacons (those who hold the office of deacon) are not to have any authority within the leadership of the local church. They simply serve the body under the authority of and at the direction of the Elders. </font>[/QUOTE]It really makes no difference if deacons are only servants, the qualification laid out by Paul in 1 Timothy are crystal clear. To twist the text to include women is creating a huge eisegetical error.

1Ti 3:12 Deacons must be husbands of one wife , managing their children and their own households competently.
1Ti 3:13 For those who have served well as deacons acquire a good standing for themselves, and great boldness in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

Tell my how this can include women? Do women deacons "manage their own households"? Is that biblical? NO!

Also...where exactly is it stated that the role of deacon in the church is not leadership? It only says "serve well". Would you consider the President to be in the position of leadership? His job is to "serve the american people". The phrase serve does not immediately negate leadership, but the context where it should be used.

 

[Scott J]

Acts 6:1-6 points to the process of selecting deacons. They were commanded to be men. The Apostles then prayed over them and laid hands on them- ordaination.

It seems apparent that Paul's letter to Timothy addressed diakonos as an office and not a function. Therefore, while women can serve others in and out of the church, they cannot hold a position that would require them to execute the financial business of the church or manage the business affairs of the church.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The fact that the deacon holds an office denotes leadership

 

[gb93433]

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by webdog:
Tell my how this can include women? Do women deacons "manage their own households"? Is that biblical? NO!

Also...where exactly is it stated that the role of deacon in the church is not leadership?

Did you read the earlier posting I wrote? It answers that question.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bible-boy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Linda64:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />(Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bibleavid Cloud, Article: Deacon
DEACON

The N.T. Greek word for deacon-diakonos-simply means "servant." Consider the following definition by W.E. Vine: "Diakonos ... primarily denotes a servant, whether as doing servile work, or as an attendant rendering free service, without particular reference to its character. The word is probably connected with the verb `dioko,' to hasten after, pursue (perhaps originally said of a runner)."

USAGE OF THE WORD "DEACON." For practical purposes we can say that the term "deacon" is used in the N.T. primarily in two ways:

1. Deacon refers to Christian workers in general. In the following verses diakonos is translated "minister": Ro 16:1; 1Co 3:5; Ro 16:1; 2Co 3:4,6; 11:23; Eph 3:7; Col 1:23; 1Th 3:2; and 1Ti 4:6. Diakonos is translated "servant" in Col 4:12. In all of these verses the Greek word diakonos is used, and in each case the reference is to Gospel preachers and Christian workers in general. In this sense, we see that the Apostle Paul, Timothy, Epaphras, and other preachers were called "deacons." Yea, every Christian is to be a deacon, a servant, in this general sense-a servant of Christ, a minister of the Gospel to a lost world of men, a humble worker in the church.

2. Deacon also refers to a certain office in the church. The work of a deacon, in the general sense of being a servant to Christ and the church, is that of every Christian; but there is also the office of a deacon spoken of in the N.T.-an office with definite and high standards, and an office which only properly qualified and chosen Christians are to hold (Php 1:1; 1Ti 3:13). It is in this sense that the word "deacon" is most commonly used today.

WOMEN DEACONS? The example of Phebe in Ro 16:1 is an illustration of how women can be deacons in the general sense-that of being servants to the church and ministers of Christ. Only men, though, can hold the office of deacon. The qualifications require that the deacon "be the husband of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well" (1Ti 3:12). This standard is consistent with the N.T. teaching forbidding women to hold positions of leadership over men in the church or home. Though the office of a deacon is not a position of leadership in the sense that the office of a pastor is, the deacons are indeed to be men of high spiritual stature and are looked upon by the other church members and by outsiders as spiritual leaders.

</font>[/QUOTE]However, Brother Cloud has neglected to consider the fact that if deacons are turely servants of the church and as such carry no authority then there is no conflict with the rest of Scripture. Notice that the 1 Tim. passage makes no mention of those who hold the office of deacon being able to preach or teach. Here is the key that unlocks any supposed conflict with Paul's teaching in 1 Cor. 11:3 or 1 Tim. 2:11-12. Properly understood deacons (those who hold the office of deacon) are not to have any authority within the leadership of the local church. They simply serve the body under the authority of and at the direction of the Elders. </font>[/QUOTE]It really makes no difference if deacons are only servants, the qualification laid out by Paul in 1 Timothy are crystal clear. To twist the text to include women is creating a huge eisegetical error.

1Ti 3:12 Deacons must be husbands of one wife , managing their children and their own households competently.
1Ti 3:13 For those who have served well as deacons acquire a good standing for themselves, and great boldness in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

Tell my how this can include women? Do women deacons "manage their own households"? Is that biblical? NO!</font>[/QUOTE]The problem is that you are relying solely on your English translation of the text. The Greek text is clearer. In the Greek there is a clear transition between v. 10 (speaking about men) and v. 11 (speaking about women), then a transition back to speaking about men in v. 12.

The Greek for v. 11 should rightly being translated: "The women, likewise,..."

Likewise, the rest of Scripture teaches us that married women are to submit to the authority of their own husbands. Therefore, the married woman who submits to her husband's authority and serves as a deaconess is in full compliance with the text of the 1 Tim. 3 household management requirements.

Originally posted by webdog:
Also...where exactly is it stated that the role of deacon in the church is not leadership? It only says "serve well". Would you consider the President to be in the position of leadership? His job is to "serve the american people".

Right... but that is not the extent of his job. He is the head of the executive branch of the federal government and he is also the Commander and Cheif of the U.S. military forces etc., etc., etc... Sorry, but you are comparing apples to oranges with this analogy.

Originally posted by webdog:
The phrase serve does not immediately negate leadership, but the context where it should be used.

Again, the Greek word translated as deacon literally means servant.

[ January 06, 2006, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
The fact that the deacon holds an office denotes leadership

Office = leadership? How so? The Greek word translated as deacon in our English Bibles literally means servant. Servants have masters (or authorities) to whom they must answer. Not the other way around.

 

[Bible-boy]

Also, I remember reading, in one of my church history classes, a letter from one of the early church fathers (somewhere between the 1st and 4th century) that detailed how the early church baptized people in the nude. One of the primary jobs of a deacon (or deaconess) is to assist with baptism. Would it be right and modest for men to be asisting naked women in and out of the water? No, but there would be no problem if a deaconess assisted the women in and out of the water and also stood by with a blanket or something to wrap them in as soon as they exited the water.

 

[webdog]

The problem is that you are relying solely on your English translation of the text. The Greek text is clearer. In the Greek there is a clear transition between v. 10 (speaking about men) and v. 11 (speaking about women), then a transition back to speaking about men in v. 12.

The Greek for v. 11 should rightly being translated: "The women, likewise,..."

Likewise, the rest of Scripture teaches us that married women are to submit to the authority of their own husbands. Therefore, the married woman who submits to her husband's authority and serves as a deaconess is in full compliance with the text of the 1 Tim. 3 household management requirements.

Your view of verse 11 is flawed. "Gune" while derived from "ginomai" meaning woman specifically means wife, and should not be translated "women, likewise...", that is your translation of the text. The following verses, then, denotes that gune is the wife of a deacon.

 

[webdog]

Likewise, the rest of Scripture teaches us that married women are to submit to the authority of their own husbands. Therefore, the married woman who submits to her husband's authority and serves as a deaconess is in full compliance with the text of the 1 Tim. 3 household management requirements.

I fail to understand your reasoning here...
Manage
MAN'AGE, v.t.

1. To conduct; to carry on; to direct the concerns of ; as, to manage a farm; to manage the affairs of a family .

To "manage" means to be in charge of with the final say. A wife cannot hold the position of "manager" of the house...while falling under the authority of her husband.

Again, the Greek word translated as deacon literally means servant.

G1247
διακονέω
diakoneō
dee-ak-on-eh'-o
From G1249; to be an attendant, that is, wait upon (menially or as a host, friend or [figuratively] teacher); technically to act as a Christian deacon: - (ad-) minister (unto), serve, use the office of a deacon .
The meaning is more than serve only. It also is minister (or administer), and a specific office of election.

To hold any "office" implies authority. Every congressman, senator or local government official, while serving the people, have authority over the same people.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Bible-boy:
Also, I remember reading, in one of my church history classes, a letter from one of the early church fathers (somewhere between the 1st and 4th century) that detailed how the early church baptized people in the nude. One of the primary jobs of a deacon (or deaconess) is to assist with baptism. Would it be right and modest for men to be asisting naked women in and out of the water? No, but there would be no problem if a deaconess assisted the women in and out of the water and also stood by with a blanket or something to wrap them in as soon as they exited the water.

This is where the phrase diakonoss means only "to serve, or to minister". This does not denote a position of authority. The same can be said of women who serve in the church in the nursery, greeter, usher, etc. These are not position of elected authority, as the office of deacon is, but the phrase diakonos still applies.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by webdog:
I fail to understand your reasoning here...
Manage
MAN'AGE, v.t.

1. To conduct; to carry on; to direct the concerns of ; as, to manage a farm; to manage the affairs of a family .

To "manage" means to be in charge of with the final say. A wife cannot hold the position of "manager" of the house...while falling under the authority of her husband.

I beg to differ. I used to manage restaurants. I managed them quite well. However, I still fell under the authority of the District Manager and the Area Supervisor.

My wife manages our house quite well. However, she does submit to my authority.

 

[Hope of Glory]

First of all, a question: Why would there be special rules laid down for the wives of deacons and not for overseers?

If the passage refers to wives of deacons, why is the word "their" omitted in the Greek? Would it not be "their women", instead of simply "women"?

Additionally, the Greek for "even so" (or "in like manner" in 1 Timothy 2:9 or "likewise" as in 1 Timothy 3:8), denotes a transition to another class of people.

Also, there were many deaconesses at Ephesus. Why would they be omitted if they were in sin?

It would be a natural progresson for Paul to specify the qualifications for the deacon, then proceed to the office of deaconess.

Pliny wrote about them in his letter to Trajan and calls them "female ministers".

So, if they were errant, they were errant at a time in which Paul could have personally corrected and rebuked them. I wonder why he didn't?