Women in Ministry...a 3rd position:

[12strings]

I guess what wound me up was that I would never suggest that you can make the Bible say whatever you want it to nor is there a even the hint that I have ever done so, yet that is immediately where you went. AA

I'm sorry for assuming the worst about you...that shouldn't happen...I don't recall any previous posts by you, so I was going off that one post exclusively...I was hoping to prevent you from assuming the worst about complimentarians as well.

I will hold to my ignoring comment but with some explanation.

Ignoring means to refuse to take notice of or acknowledge; disregard intentionally. The complimentary interpretation that women can only serve in gender specific roles seems to me to be ignoring (as defined) the other passages, some a few chapters away, where women are serving as deacons, preaching, teaching, etc. One set of passages becomes the norm while other passages diminished. This has been and continues to be my major issue with the complimentary interpretation. Also, the example of Jesus elevating, including, teaching and relying on women seems again to be completely ignored.

Is it too strong a word? Can you suggest a more appropriate one?

Your bolded definition is what I would have a problem with...that you believe we INTENTIONALLY disregard passages that might challenge our position.

It is beyond the scope of a forum post, and I'm sure I disagree with some on the details...but I truly believe the general complimentarian position takes into account all those passages you say we ignore, and explains them in light of the whole teaching of scripture, including, but no limited too, the general leadership (in the ruling capacities of churches) of men in the New testament. I also think that Paul's teaching on Male headship in the home plays a part in our understanding of their roles in the church. If anything, I would say the arguments for male headship in the home are stronger than those for in the church, but I think they are both right.

I have only recently looked into the fact that all the male descriptors in the NT are refering to Elder, bishop, overseer, NOT to "pastor". Which is why I can emphathize with the Gateway view that women could be shepherds...but not overseers.

Oh, yeah, and women can be deacons...no doubt...when deacon is defined and practiced scripturally as servant, not ruling board.

At our church (SBC), we let a woman speak for the whole service about her trip to israel, along with scripture passage and bible teaching and encouragement/exhortations mixed in. It was very good. But it was also done at the request of the Elders. She was not exercising authority over us.

 

[12strings]

The Bible says that women cannot be pastors, deacons or elders (depending on the definition of the terms you use).

Just checking, what do you think of my post #4?

 

[annsni]

Just checking, what do you think of my post #4?

In our modern definition, elders are called "pastors".

 

[Alive in Christ]

I find it to be just a complete, shamefull embarrasment that the Baptist/Evangelical comununity..MY community..is so out of touch regarding leadership/Senior Pastor positions for our women

Its baffling.


Goodness, it one of the few things where the Liberal church has got something RIGHT!

The scriptures..(meaning the WHOLE of the scritures, not just someones favorite proof verses.)...are overflowing with proof that women have always been in leadership positions, both before and after Christ. The scriptures are presented in abundance, yet they are not concidered. Sad.

 

[annsni]

The scriptures..(meaning the WHOLE of the scritures, not just someones favorite proof verses.)...are overflowing with proof that women have always been in leadership positions, both before and after Christ. The scriptures are presented in abundance, yet they are not concidered. Sad.

So in other words, the Scriptures contradict themselves?

Show me this abundant proof. Show me one woman elder.

 

[Iconoclast]

I find it to be just a complete, shamefull embarrasment that the Baptist/Evangelical comununity..MY community..is so comically out of touch regarding leadership/Senior Pastor positions for our women

Its baffling.


Goodness, it one of the few things where the Liberal church has got something RIGHT!

The scriptures..(meaning the WHOLE of the scritures, not just someones favorite proof verses.)...are overflowing with proof that women have always been in leadership positions, both before and after Christ. The scriptures are presented in abundance, yet they are not concidered. Sad.

AIC,
You have missed it completely here,and this is why there can be no agreement.You statement is unbiblical ....far from overflowing......a woman ruling over a man is judgement ....

4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.

5 And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbour: the child shall behave himself proudly against the ancient, and the base against the honourable.

6 When a man shall take hold of his brother of the house of his father, saying, Thou hast clothing, be thou our ruler, and let this ruin be under thy hand:

7 In that day shall he swear, saying, I will not be an healer; for in my house is neither bread nor clothing: make me not a ruler of the people.

8 For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judah is fallen: because their tongue and their doings are against the Lord, to provoke the eyes of his glory.

9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

10 Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings.

11 Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.

12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

 

[Iconoclast]

Spurgeon called Lavinia Bartlett his best deacon, even a pastor.

Bio of Mrs. Bartlett in The Sword and the Trowel:

http://books.google.com/books?id=a7gVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA113

Jerome,
I am sure Mrs Bartlett was a godly woman.that was not the question.
I have a picture of Spurgeons deacons ...they all had beards:thumbsup:

Which one was Mrs Bartlett?:laugh:

 

[annsni]

Jerome,
I am sure Mrs Bartlett was a godly woman.that was not the question.
I have a picture of Spurgeons deacons ...they all had beards:thumbsup:

Which one was Mrs Bartlett?:laugh:

I guess the beauty shop was closed that week. All us good Christian women get waxed regularly so our beards are non-existent.

 

[Alive in Christ]

QUOTE=annsni;1949149]So in other words, the Scriptures contradict themselves?[/quote]


The scripturers NEVER contradict themselves. as they are God breathed.

Show me this abundant proof. Show me one woman elder.

You dont need me. Surf the scriptures your self..with an OPEN mind. You will find the evidence you are seeking.A concorance would be beneficial as well.

God bless

 

[Iconoclast]

QUOTE=annsni;1949149]So in other words, the Scriptures contradict themselves?

The scripturers NEVER contradict themselves. as they are God breathed.




You dont need me. Surf the scriptures your self..with an OPEN mind. You will find the evidence you are seeking.A concorance would be beneficial as well.

God bless

AIC,

Maybe you could list 5 good ones.....How many Levitical priests were women? In fact were there any priests that were women?
Aic...you made your statement and Ann is correctly asking you to supply your proof.......I think she will wait along time for that:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

I guess the beauty shop was closed that week. All us good Christian women get waxed regularly so our beards are non-existent.

:laugh::laugh::wavey:

 

[12strings]

In our modern definition, elders are called "pastors".

So you're saying it's simply a matter of confusion if we start calling women pastors...not necessarily unbiblical?

If there was no linguistic baggage, and this church decided to go only with biblical definitions...they have decided correctly limit "elders/overseers" governing role to men, but don't see the word "shepherd" (in noun or verb form) to be limited in that way?