Either way the Word of God is communicated. Why would one be gender sensitive?
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Women in ministry: Teaching versus Prophecy
- Thread starter Agent47
- Start date
Either way the Word of God is communicated. Why would one be gender sensitive?
Due to one being in just that time period, and other for all history forward!
You are going round in circles defining prophecy and teaching using different words or basically repeating yourself.
I already know what they are.
I'm asking WHY women are banned from one and not the other yet they are all communicating the word of God. If this is too hard for you try explaining why women are banned from teaching men.
Anyway, let's have others as well.
Cheers
Do you think Scripture supports female pastors then?
Yes I do, but that's a different topic altogether. For purposes of this thread let's assume I don't believe they should.
That makes absolutely no sense.
OK, I'll do my normal thing and explain my position with an avalanche of bible teaching, because I'm a disabled man with way too much time on his hands.
Concerning the verses commanding women to be submissive and quiet,
1 Corinthians 14:34-38 NASB
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is [n]improper for a woman to speak in church. 36 [o]Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?
37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. 38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he [p]is not recognized.
*Notice the broader context of the chapter is order in worship. God clearly considers the role of women in church to be up there with prophecy and tongues in having good order to a congregation.
*Notice God goes directly into a challenge to all who would negate this command. The warning is most severe, to be an unrecognized prophet or spiritual person.
*Notice that the word for church is the Ekklesia, which is a congregation or assembly of the saints. This applies whenever believers are gathered.
ἐκκλησία | billmounce.com
This is not the whole story in 1 Corinthians though, we now go to:
1 Corinthians 11:2-16 NASB
2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to understand that [a]Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. 4 Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. 5 But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman [c]whose head is shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover [d]her head, let her also [e]have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to [f]have her hair cut off or [g]her head shaved, let her cover [h]her head. 7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. 10 Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 However, in the Lord, neither is woman [j]independent of man, nor is man [k]independent of woman. 12 For as the woman [l]originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things [m]originate from God. 13 Judge [n]for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, 15 but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering. 16 But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no [o]other practice, nor have the churches of God.
*Notice women are allowed to pray and prophesy(more or less a defunct function for now) in a congregation
*Notice that women are to have a symbol of authority on their head when doing either. The explanation immediately given is for the angels, which is a lost explanation sadly.
*Notice these two rules are meshed together that women can pray and prophesy in church requires a symbol of authority on their head.
*Yes I go this far as applying such an "archaic" practice to the today because of verse 16. Paul makes this a practice of all the churches of God and calls out any who would say otherwise. Of course, bear with the brethren who laugh at such an assertion because of the modern world.
1 Timothy 2:9-15
9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, [g]modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first [h]created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be [j]preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with [k]self-restraint.
*Notice women are expected to be modest and discreet with their choice of clothing. The articles mentioned are cultural, but jewelry indicating status is likely one that still applies to the Western World. This is important to note since Indian Christians with the famous missionary Amy Carmichael went without wearing tons of jewelry as a sing of status. They wore what was needed to indicate basic things like being married due to this command. Regardless, good deeds are the true raiment of a Christian woman.
*Women are commanded to learn in submissiveness.
*They are then immediately exhorted not to teach or hold authority over men. Authority in the church is easy to understand, it defines conservative theologians to reject women pastors. However, any position of authority over a man is implied. Now the word for teach here is Didasko, which used here according to the Mounce Greek dictionary means in this case "to teach or speak in a public assembly, 1 Tim. 2:12."
διδάσκω | billmounce.com
*Thus women are not to teach men in public assembly or to hold authority over them. A public assembly would of course be the gathered Ekklesia, it is a congregation or assembly in literal definition after all.
*However, one thing to notice about didasko is that it is used in the New Testament almost exclusively with the teaching of the Word. The Word uses many words for teach in the new testament but didasko is almost always associated with teaching of the Word. A good case can be made that women can teach other subjects than the Word in public assembly to men. One apologist I follow who is an expert in biblical languages holds to this interpretation.
Another interpretation I have seen is that a woman cannot publicly teach in the church, but could teach men outside of it. The clarification is because Paul tells Timothy in 1 Timothy 3:14-15:
14 I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; 15 but [k]in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how [l]one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
Thus, it could be that Paul is actually teaching how to act in the assembly of the saints and not beyond in 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Timothy 3.
*Notice the appeal here for these commands concerning women teaching publicly and having authority over men is to the created order itself. God immediately goes to Adam and Eve. Adam is created first. Additionally, Eve fell for Satan's temptation and then Adam fell for Eve's temptation.
*The last verse, 15, has sparked many a bitter debate. It is difficult compared to the rest of this text, but I will take a crack at it. Notice the things listed for a woman to continue in: (Mounce translates them) faith, love (literally Agape), holiness, and modesty are all things a regenerated woman indwelt with the Holy Spirit will have to begin with. So, assuming women have fruit of the Spirit within them they are assured salvation. Aren't we all like this. As for childbearing, clearly given God's many calls to people to exercise restraint in regards to getting married if they can go without it, this applies only to married women, and infertile women are of course excluded form this command via logic. As to how childbearing is preserving or salvific I don't know. I'll be bluntly honest.
Concerning the verses commanding women to be submissive and quiet,
1 Corinthians 14:34-38 NASB
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is [n]improper for a woman to speak in church. 36 [o]Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?
37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. 38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he [p]is not recognized.
*Notice the broader context of the chapter is order in worship. God clearly considers the role of women in church to be up there with prophecy and tongues in having good order to a congregation.
*Notice God goes directly into a challenge to all who would negate this command. The warning is most severe, to be an unrecognized prophet or spiritual person.
*Notice that the word for church is the Ekklesia, which is a congregation or assembly of the saints. This applies whenever believers are gathered.
ἐκκλησία | billmounce.com
This is not the whole story in 1 Corinthians though, we now go to:
1 Corinthians 11:2-16 NASB
2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to understand that [a]Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. 4 Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. 5 But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman [c]whose head is shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover [d]her head, let her also [e]have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to [f]have her hair cut off or [g]her head shaved, let her cover [h]her head. 7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. 10 Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 However, in the Lord, neither is woman [j]independent of man, nor is man [k]independent of woman. 12 For as the woman [l]originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things [m]originate from God. 13 Judge [n]for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, 15 but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering. 16 But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no [o]other practice, nor have the churches of God.
*Notice women are allowed to pray and prophesy(more or less a defunct function for now) in a congregation
*Notice that women are to have a symbol of authority on their head when doing either. The explanation immediately given is for the angels, which is a lost explanation sadly.
*Notice these two rules are meshed together that women can pray and prophesy in church requires a symbol of authority on their head.
*Yes I go this far as applying such an "archaic" practice to the today because of verse 16. Paul makes this a practice of all the churches of God and calls out any who would say otherwise. Of course, bear with the brethren who laugh at such an assertion because of the modern world.
1 Timothy 2:9-15
9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, [g]modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first [h]created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be [j]preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with [k]self-restraint.
*Notice women are expected to be modest and discreet with their choice of clothing. The articles mentioned are cultural, but jewelry indicating status is likely one that still applies to the Western World. This is important to note since Indian Christians with the famous missionary Amy Carmichael went without wearing tons of jewelry as a sing of status. They wore what was needed to indicate basic things like being married due to this command. Regardless, good deeds are the true raiment of a Christian woman.
*Women are commanded to learn in submissiveness.
*They are then immediately exhorted not to teach or hold authority over men. Authority in the church is easy to understand, it defines conservative theologians to reject women pastors. However, any position of authority over a man is implied. Now the word for teach here is Didasko, which used here according to the Mounce Greek dictionary means in this case "to teach or speak in a public assembly, 1 Tim. 2:12."
διδάσκω | billmounce.com
*Thus women are not to teach men in public assembly or to hold authority over them. A public assembly would of course be the gathered Ekklesia, it is a congregation or assembly in literal definition after all.
*However, one thing to notice about didasko is that it is used in the New Testament almost exclusively with the teaching of the Word. The Word uses many words for teach in the new testament but didasko is almost always associated with teaching of the Word. A good case can be made that women can teach other subjects than the Word in public assembly to men. One apologist I follow who is an expert in biblical languages holds to this interpretation.
Another interpretation I have seen is that a woman cannot publicly teach in the church, but could teach men outside of it. The clarification is because Paul tells Timothy in 1 Timothy 3:14-15:
14 I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; 15 but [k]in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how [l]one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
Thus, it could be that Paul is actually teaching how to act in the assembly of the saints and not beyond in 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Timothy 3.
*Notice the appeal here for these commands concerning women teaching publicly and having authority over men is to the created order itself. God immediately goes to Adam and Eve. Adam is created first. Additionally, Eve fell for Satan's temptation and then Adam fell for Eve's temptation.
*The last verse, 15, has sparked many a bitter debate. It is difficult compared to the rest of this text, but I will take a crack at it. Notice the things listed for a woman to continue in: (Mounce translates them) faith, love (literally Agape), holiness, and modesty are all things a regenerated woman indwelt with the Holy Spirit will have to begin with. So, assuming women have fruit of the Spirit within them they are assured salvation. Aren't we all like this. As for childbearing, clearly given God's many calls to people to exercise restraint in regards to getting married if they can go without it, this applies only to married women, and infertile women are of course excluded form this command via logic. As to how childbearing is preserving or salvific I don't know. I'll be bluntly honest.
1 Peter 3:1-6
In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2 as they observe your chaste and [a]respectful behavior. 3 Your adornment must not be merely external—braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.
*Again women, in this case married ones, are exhorted to submissiveness by God through Peter. A reason is given for women that happen to be married to unbelievers: to win their spouses to Christ with their behavior. Here the Mounce Interlinear reads "when they observe with respect the purity of your life."
*Again, a call to modesty is given by God through Peter.
*Notice women with gentle and quiet spirits are precious in the sight of God. An example is immediately given to stress the point. Sarah's submission to Abraham to even call and treat him as her lord is given as an example to live up to without being frightened (literally "with alarm" or 'dismay' or 'consternation').
πτόησις | billmounce.com
Titus 2:3-5
3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4 so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.
*Notice older women are commanded to teach here. The word is Kalodidaskalos which literally means "teaching what is good." Notice it fits earlier scripture due to the context of teaching women and children, but not men in public assembly.
καλοδιδάσκαλος | billmounce.com
*Notice what a young woman of character in the church is like: loves a husband if married, loves her children, is sensible, is pure, works at home, is kind, subject to their husband if married.
*Notice a reason is given for young women acting like this: So that the Word of God is not dishonored.
But wait, there are two key things to look at in scripture to round things out:
Priscilla and Aquilla
Acts 18:24-28
24 Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, [d]an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John; 26 and [e]he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27 And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly [f]helped those who had believed through grace, 28 for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the [g]Christ.
*Notice Priscilla teaches Apollos with her husband Aquila, but not in a public assembly. They bring him aside in private.
Phoebe
Romans 16:1-2
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a [a]servant of the church which is at Cenchrea; 2 that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, [c]and of myself as well.
*Servant here is diakonon, which we get our word deacon from. Phoebe may be a female deacon. The issue is that Deacon is not teacher or elder. Deacons provide services and helps in a church, not leadership or teaching in a public assembly.
I will do a study on the Judge Deborah soon to understand things in the old covenant better. I'll share that in time.
In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2 as they observe your chaste and [a]respectful behavior. 3 Your adornment must not be merely external—braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.
*Again women, in this case married ones, are exhorted to submissiveness by God through Peter. A reason is given for women that happen to be married to unbelievers: to win their spouses to Christ with their behavior. Here the Mounce Interlinear reads "when they observe with respect the purity of your life."
*Again, a call to modesty is given by God through Peter.
*Notice women with gentle and quiet spirits are precious in the sight of God. An example is immediately given to stress the point. Sarah's submission to Abraham to even call and treat him as her lord is given as an example to live up to without being frightened (literally "with alarm" or 'dismay' or 'consternation').
πτόησις | billmounce.com
Titus 2:3-5
3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4 so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.
*Notice older women are commanded to teach here. The word is Kalodidaskalos which literally means "teaching what is good." Notice it fits earlier scripture due to the context of teaching women and children, but not men in public assembly.
καλοδιδάσκαλος | billmounce.com
*Notice what a young woman of character in the church is like: loves a husband if married, loves her children, is sensible, is pure, works at home, is kind, subject to their husband if married.
*Notice a reason is given for young women acting like this: So that the Word of God is not dishonored.
But wait, there are two key things to look at in scripture to round things out:
Priscilla and Aquilla
Acts 18:24-28
24 Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, [d]an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John; 26 and [e]he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27 And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly [f]helped those who had believed through grace, 28 for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the [g]Christ.
*Notice Priscilla teaches Apollos with her husband Aquila, but not in a public assembly. They bring him aside in private.
Phoebe
Romans 16:1-2
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a [a]servant of the church which is at Cenchrea; 2 that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, [c]and of myself as well.
*Servant here is diakonon, which we get our word deacon from. Phoebe may be a female deacon. The issue is that Deacon is not teacher or elder. Deacons provide services and helps in a church, not leadership or teaching in a public assembly.
I will do a study on the Judge Deborah soon to understand things in the old covenant better. I'll share that in time.
your fault
Question then is,
How is teaching 'holding authority over men' while prophecy is not yet in all it is the word of God being communicated?
Please try articulating your position without justification from scriptures at first. If that is needed I will request for it.
Paul mentions the reason is the Law. There is only one instance in the Torah where you would see this. The Genesis curse on Eve to want to rule her husband but to always be under his authority. A woman who did not marry would be under her father.
Thus, women are always under men in Christianity, whether husband or father.
Now, the Word argues other specific points, but I'll avoid that for now as you requested.
In light of what I said. The real question is not why women can't teach or lead, but why women can speak at all. Why two exceptions?
Well that's easy from reason. Women prophesy at all and 1 Corinthians says it is to be done in assembly. There are old testament prophetesses as well pointing the way. Women can pray out loud, even to lead the assembly. That is amazing really in context, God let's the relationship between Him and a woman out in public tghrough her prayers.
Not really, it's why prophesy (not just speak) and not teach?
In other words,what is it in communicating the Word of God in teaching that is gender sensitive that is lacking in prophecy?
A hypothetical situation.
A woman in first century moved by the Holy Spirit stands in a congregation of men and proceeds to speak in tongues. She then pauses to interpret. "Thus saith the LORD, who knew there before you were formed in your mother's womb. I know the plans I have for you...."
The same woman is estopped from reading from Jeremiah 1:5, 29:11 and comforting the congregation.
There must be a logical explanation and that's what I seek
Remember pastor and teacher are combined in the new testament. A pastor shepherds as a servant leader while teaching the Word as an authority on it. In prophesy God is the authority, since the prophet or prophetess is a vessel. No more.
You mean God is not an authority when teachers are teaching?
Whether teaching or prophesying God remains the authority. Anyone rightly dividing the Word of God ends up speaking the mind of God just as any true prophet.
Besides, your comment seems to lean towards a theory you alluded to where women were forbidden to teach men in congregations but not elsewhere.
I'm also puzzled by Steven Yeadon's contrived contrast between prophesying (in which God is the authority) and teaching (in which the pastor, not God, is the authority). Huh?
Weird stuff, and all to try to bolster these gender notions.
_____
Acts 13:1
Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen a lifelong friend of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Question: Which of these five were prophets, and which were teachers?
Weird stuff, and all to try to bolster these gender notions.
_____
Acts 13:1
Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen a lifelong friend of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Question: Which of these five were prophets, and which were teachers?
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Jerome, you may be right, I may be contrived in regards to the philosophy I used to justify women prophets but not teachers.
In light of the fact I may be contrived, I will have to just fall back on a very simple defense. The Law commands women to be in submission, and the reason women can still be a prophetess is beyond me. That is the counsel of God. I will stop trying to understand His mind and go with the commands of scripture.
Appeal to mystery.
Thank you for your thorough comments. IIwon't be needing scriptures to support your views. Let's see if we can get a different take.
I have no idea who among these were prophets
We have NO scriptures that support women as either pastors or elders in a local church!