Women in position of authority !

Okay, so how do you feel about women who teach??? Surely you are not against yourself. On this board there are many women who share and teach and instruct and no one seems to take much notice of that one way or another. We are all more or less on equal footing here, yet we are a kind of church as we are all believers who have chosen to gather together in this place. If you are against women in leadership roles then what about the admins on this board???

 

And let me add to that:

A shepherd is a nurturer of his flock kind of in the same way like a mother is a nurturer of her children. But if a woman is a Shepherdess of people, then that is somehow out of kilter???

What if the men don't take the reigns and lead, is it okay then for a woman or women to take his/their place???

 

Okay, so how do you feel about women who teach??? Surely you are not against yourself. On this board there are many women who share and teach and instruct and no one seems to take much notice of that one way or another. We are all more or less on equal footing here, yet we are a kind of church as we are all believers who have chosen to gather together in this place. If you are against women in leadership roles then what about the admins on this board??? </font>[/QUOTE]I said I opposed women pastors.

As far as teaching goes, I think it depends on what is being taught. I think in the Bible "teach" meant like what we call preach today, leading someone through the Word. I do not do expository teaching from or about the Bible to men (and not much with women). I use biblical support in my talks about the New Age or occult, but I am not teaching or exegeting the Bible like someone who is doing a talk on a passage of scripture does (like my pastor).

Where do I say I'm against women in leadership roles? I don't think an adminstrator on the BB is the same as a pastor. Being a pastor is an eccleisiastical office of leadership; being on the BB is not.

 

I am not sure what you are asking. What shepherdessess? How do they play into the bible or the thread?

I also don't think a shepherd, as it is used metaphorically in the Bible, is the same as a mother. A shepherd guards and protects the flock from danger, and gathers stray sheep. Pastors are to guard the flock in the same way - this is not really nurturing like a mother does. I am not saying they cannot be nurturing, but that is not the primary role, depending on what you mean by nurture.

 

Just because she does a better job than you doesnt' qualify her to lead the position. That is just pragmatism.
The Bible is plain about leadership roles of women in churches. They should not be in authority over men.

In principle Eph. 5:21-24 can apply. It doens't make much sense for Joe to be the spiritual leader of his home when he goes to church and gets taught by a woman. Why would this principle be followed in the home and not in church when both are in Scripture?

"It works" is not the chief qualification for rather it is right or wrong for a woman to lead a man in church the Bible is. As far as that goes if you want to use the pragmatic principle what happens when it doesn't work?

 

Neither is salvation and baptism the same thing, but they are related, one opens the door for the other.

 

Marcia, Have you never heard of a female shepherd???

 

This has to be one of the silliest things Ive ever read.

Who, but the called, which are qualified by God, would you want to be in a leadership position? And exactly how did any of us get into the position to question what is God's word?

Might as well make the dog the leader then. He may be the only male around.

I would rather have someone leading my church that is serving their purpose rather than someone thrust into the position by others who are unqualified and uncalled.

God is the center of everything. He has no circumference.

I am not a feminist or whatever, in fact I cant really say I know what that is, however there is a lot of serious business in this world today - and we are sitting here dividing ourselves again. It feels wrong to do that.

 

In my church nobody has authority over anybody else except the hired staff are under authority of the pastor. Otherwise, only the church as a whole, voting, has any authority over anybody else.

Hmmm. Maybe we should not let women vote in church business meetings?

 

What about this? (Yes, I know it's OT.)

From 2 Chronicles 34 (ESV)

2Ch 34:18 Then Shaphan the secretary told the king, "Hilkiah the priest has given me a book." And Shaphan read from it before the king.
2Ch 34:19 And when the king heard the words of the Law, he tore his clothes.
2Ch 34:20 And the king commanded Hilkiah, Ahikam the son of Shaphan, Abdon the son of Micah, Shaphan the secretary, and Asaiah the king's servant, saying,
2Ch 34:21 "Go, inquire of the LORD for me and for those who are left in Israel and in Judah, concerning the words of the book that has been found. For great is the wrath of the LORD that is poured out on us, because our fathers have not kept the word of the LORD, to do according to all that is written in this book."
2Ch 34:22 So Hilkiah and those whom the king had sent went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tokhath, son of Hasrah, keeper of the wardrobe (now she lived in Jerusalem in the Second Quarter) and spoke to her to that effect.
2Ch 34:23 And she said to them, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: 'Tell the man who sent you to me,
2Ch 34:24 Thus says the LORD, behold, I will bring disaster upon this place and upon its inhabitants, all the curses that are written in the book that was read before the king of Judah.
2Ch 34:25 Because they have forsaken me and have made offerings to other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands, therefore my wrath will be poured out on this place and will not be quenched.
2Ch 34:26 But to the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the LORD, thus shall you say to him, Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: Regarding the words that you have heard,
2Ch 34:27 because your heart was tender and you humbled yourself before God when you heard his words against this place and its inhabitants, and you have humbled yourself before me and have torn your clothes and wept before me, I also have heard you, declares the LORD.
2Ch 34:28 Behold, I will gather you to your fathers, and you shall be gathered to your grave in peace, and your eyes shall not see all the disaster that I will bring upon this place and its inhabitants.'" And they brought back word to the king.

A KING (who has the most authority in the land) received prophetic, authoritative word from a woman.

 

I withdraw this question.

 

But this does not mean the king is under her authority. She was a prophetess and he was under the authority of God's word to him through the prophetess, not under her authority.

We are studying 1 Tim. in SS and had the big discussion today on women and authority. It's clear from 1 Tim. 2, 1 cor. 11, and other passages, that there is an order set up by God:
God&gt;Christ&gt;man&gt;woman

A single woman is under the authority of her pastors.

We discussed this at length - starting last Sunday. It seems clear from scripture that God has set up an order and it is clear that women are not to have authority in the church over men, such as being pastor.

BTW, I am not in a Fundie church. In fact, I've never even attended one.

As far as being quiet, the Greek also means "quite demeanor." In context, the woman is not to "take over" but be quiet in a way that goes along with her modest demeanor, urged in the previous verses.

 

emeraldctyangel,

If God list one of the qualifications of a pastor or deacon as being a husband of one wife a requirement then He obviously won't call a woman to be a pastor.Is God going to by-pass His own qualifications? I'm referring to the role of pastor when I say this. On that role the Bible is clear. On other positions some would say its debatable. I have yet to find a woman who can be the husband of one wife. Unless of course you want to count some kind of lesbian role playing thing.

BTW you might be having a hard time trying to decide on what is right or wrong because your relying on your "feelings" as you stated at the end of your post instead of Scripture

A woman serving as a pastor in your church wouldnt' be fullfilling her God given purpose because God didn't call women to be pastors/elders. TITUS 1:5-9, ITim.3:1-5.
Lots of male pronouns in these passages as well as the words man,.

"God is the center of everything"? Kind of a pantheistic way of looking at things isn't it?

 

I don't think the Scriptures allow for a woman to be a Sr. Pastor. I really don't understand why. But I'll submit to the authority of God's word on it. But beyond that, Paul made a sweeping statement. He said that "in Christ, there is neither male nor female." Are our churches demonstrating this or are we following the now-outdated remnants of our culture?
Women serve on the board at the church I now serve at. They have said that they are only there because men wouldn't serve. But I hope they stay. They are talented and they bring much to the table.
Every pastor reading this knows that his church would fold tomorrow were it not for the women.

 

Not really Shannon. He just is the center of everything for me. I cant pigeon hole Him into one little convenient corner of my life - that would be a terrible tragedy.

I know nothing of lesbians, kind of an way out of context thing to shove into this discussion, which I will abstain because I cant comment. I simply dont know anything about them, nor do I care to know. I leave that to God.

I do think it is a tad bit arrogant to assume you know what God means. I think we are all just feeling our way around this rather large truth. What I have found is that when you think you got this down, you understand it all, God reveals to you just exactly how true that usually isnt. Our life is one long learning experience. If you have something else, you have graduated or something, well hats off to you.

Male pronouns mean that it must be a male? Okay, it is your church, do what you want. I think everyone has God given talents and purpose, and it is a waste to ignore them. My church teaches that is fear based faith and we use all members in any way we can, based on their spiritual talents.

Whether I post scripture or my opinions, I am not here to validate my faith. I stated that dividing ourselves feels wrong because it does. And it doesnt feel wrong because I said so, it does because Ive prayed on it. If you want to perpetuate this faith, then alienating others is not exactly the best way to go about doing it.

To Dave, my Pastor would shout that to the rooftops!

[ June 29, 2005, 04:26 AM: Message edited by: emeraldctyangel ]

 

Deborah was not only a prophetess but a judge a position of authority in Israel as recorded in the Book of Judges.

Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

Deborah issued commands and men obeyed them:

Judges 4:14 And Deborah said unto Barak, Up; for this is the day in which the LORD hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the LORD gone out before thee? So Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him.

personally, I don't see the functional difference between the realtionship you have described here and the relationship between church members and their pastor.

The one answer to the "problem" of female authority in the Church vs Israel is that there is no specific command(s) against it in the OT while there are in the NT.

There are clues however in the OT that it was a allowable exception: In both cases of Huldah and Deborah, the phrase "the wife of" is used:

2 Kings 22
So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college and they communed with her.

Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

Showing that they were married and they themselves under the Torah rule of male leadership:

Genesis 3:16 ... and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Then there is the fact that the male rulers (Barak anyway) had abdicated their authority and expressed cowardess and/or sniveled to these prohetesses:

Judges 4
8 And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go.
9 And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.

Note also that Deborah accurately prophecied that
a woman would kill Sisera (presumably a dishonor in those days) and that he (Barak) wasn't going to get the credit anyway.

Josiah did humble himself. Evidently there was only Hudah the prophetess at that time to speak authoritatively in the name of the Lord.

HankD

 

In the strictest interpretation, Scripture does not forbid a woman from holding positions over authority in a church, but only disallows a women from pastoring. Women can preach, just not as a pastor. Broader interpretations,though, will disallow women from many, and sometimes all, teaching positions.

This issue is not covered inthe Distinctives. Hence, each church has the autonomy and liberty to decide to what extent they want to apply the role of women in their own church setting. No church has the authority to deprive another congregation of its own autonomy or liberty to do so. In other words, if my church forbids women in all areas, and yours allows the, say, to teach adult sunday school, I do not have the authority to tell you you're wrong.

 

emerald,

So you prayed on it and thats the final authority for something being right or wrong? Just how does God answer a prayer that contridicts His word?
You think its okay to have a woman pastor because it feels right yet God's word says one qualification to be a pastor is "the husband of one wife".
Now explain to me (ANYBODY) just how that can be interpreted to mean that a woman can pastor a church? You can debate about women deacons or women sunday school teachers etc... but God plainly says in HIS word that a pastor,bishop elder is to be a man. There is no nuance in the passages where these quaifications are listed.
Clearly Emeraldctyangel your experience overrides doctrine in your belief system.

"I think we are all just feeling our way around this rather large truth."

We don't have to feel our way around we have THE BIBLE to use as the guide for our faith and practice. In the particular passages i mentioned the words he, and man do mean someone of the "male" gender should be the only one to aspire to the office of pastor. Wow the words really do mean something in the Bible. Unless of course you "pray on it" and God tells you somethingelse. NOT.

 

Well, Shannon you seem the perfect example at how that guide can most certainly be interpreted anyway you see fit. And when you cant shove that down ANYBODY's throat, you attempt and fail at making people afraid of it. It's okay, youll learn. Most often it will be the hard way. Yep.

It is so plain that women who attempt to pastor a church (and there are many) are so wrong, and defying God's word, that they are being struck down, smoted even, left and right. Right.

Might want to get out of that jail a little bit more. Good luck.

 

Yes. The words used in both Titus 1 and 1 Tim. 3 when they say "husband of one wife" are for "man," not "person" or "anyone" or anything similar. They specifically say "man" as in a male man, not generic "man" for man or woman.