Women in position of authority !

So, you think it's a violation of scripture when a woman is a police officer, a judge, a manager, a college professor, etc???

Or do you disagree with the notion that I still honor my mother, even though I'm almost 40? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes....a female police officer, a judge, a manager..whatever.

And you should honor you mother.

 

What are you going to do with Deborah, a judge to whom all of Israel went for judgment, or Lydia who ran a business and headed a household?

 

Personally, I think the argument using Deborah is not a good one for arguing that women should be in positions of authority. For one thing, Deborah was a prophetess and although the text doesn't explicitly say so, I assume she was picked by God. According to what I studied and what my OT prof thinks, it was because the men in Israel were pathetic and she was the best one for the position.

Deborah was an anomaly, like Samuel appearing to Saul. It is not normative. Also, it's from the OT and the OT should always be considered in light of the NT.

As for Lydia, it seems she was a widow or a never married woman since no husband is mentioned. The fact she says "my house" and it says "her household" in Acts 16.15 indicates she had no husband. I think she's a pretty insubstantial example.

 

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that women cannot ever have an authoritative role. Certainly, women are not in violation of scripture when they become judges, police officers, or hold public office such as mayor or senator.

I dunno 'bout anyone else, but, to this day, my 72 year old mother still has spiritual headship over me. </font>[/QUOTE]Amen, Brother JohnV -- Preach it!

I still respect the spiritual wisdom of my
80-year-old Sister Mother.

 

Umm, you said, "A single woman is under the authority of her pastors."

Technically - that isn't true according to scripture. According to scripture a woman was under the authority of her father until she married, then her husband, and if her husband died - his brothers.

 

What if the father is dead, there are no brothers, and no husband?

 

It's true that Lydia probably had no husband. Also Chloe, mentioned in I Cor. The point is that these were women who were wealthy, owned slaves and ran businesses. They must have been exceptional women, given the discrimination that women faced in Grk society. As remarkable as they were, they really don't help us in this issue because they were already successful before becoming Christians.

 

the only explicit prohibition for women in the church is the role of pastor, which is what is being reffered to by not letting a woman have authority over a man. this was for the church no civil government, or personal businesses. Just because God prohibits women from being pastors does not mean they can't do the job, I think God prohibited it because a pastor is truely a front line soldier in the War of this World.....my wife is just as smart and as brave as i, but i am the one who seeks out the noises at night, not because she won't but because I Love Her, and want to protect her. Men are designed to have the ability to turn off their emotions at a moments notice, which is a requirement, the things people tell pastors no one aught to hear, but if someone has to let it be a man. if someone has to take the Bullets in the spiritual war, let the one who is equiped......But remember women are worthy, for they raise up our sons. I think God was just being compassionate, He just not wanting women to be "fodder" (believe it or not a lot of pastors end up emotionally destroyed or even suicidal)in the battle. I think it has nothing to do with skill, but everything to do with Lovingkindness.

thankyou and God Bles

 

Thank you, yeshua4me2, for your refreshing and compassionate post on this subject.

 

That simply doesn't hold water scripturally.

Judges were ordained by God. The text specifically says that Deborah judged Israel and that all the people came to her.

God is not a pragmatist. He most certainly knew how to raise up men even in the worst of times. There are no negative implications in the texts concerning Deborah. There were obviously failures in male leadership on the part of Barak... but that didn't reflect on Deborah. If God had wanted to condemn her as falsely holding this "civil" position then He most certainly could have... but didn't.

The NT doesn't deal with women in positions of authority within governments at all.

Hardly. Lydia was a business woman. A trader. As such, she could not have avoided situations where she was somehow in authority over male servants and slaves.

She is the perfect example to illustrate the point that women can operate in the business environment and even exercise authority over men in those environments.

I argued many pages with TexasSky about women teaching men. The Bible speaks against it. To say otherwise is to take away from scripture. OTOH, the Bible does not say that women cannot hold business or government positions of authority. It gives us two examples where they in fact did. Plus the Law made provisions for women to inherit property if their father had no male heirs. That was a position of economic/business authority over male servants.

 

There are different areas and levels of submission.
Paul was addressing the church and the family.
A woman is to be submissive to her husband (clearly taught in Scripture), and she is not to have authority over a man in the church. That is the context in which Paul was teaching. The teaching comes from a Pastoral epistle giving instructions of how to keep order in the church.

A woman is to submit to the law. If she drives a car she must submit to the speed limit, and other governmental laws, just like we all do.

Many women have authoriy over men when put in places of authority in the secular world.
Margaret Thatcher was one of the greatest Prime Ministers that England ever had. England still has a very good Queen. Both are in positions of Authority.
Canada has a female governor-general: Adrian Clarkson.
At one time Pakistan had a female Prime Minister: Benazir Bhutto, quite an accomplishment for an Islamic nation.
America has had many leaders which are females on the state level--female senators.

Does a woman have authority over a man? Of course. But not in the church.
Though Deborah was a prophetess, she was a judge. She was ordained of God to rule and govern the nation, just as many political leaders are today. What do you find odd about that? God chose her to do so. As the context hints at, perhaps it was because there were no men to step up and take a position of leadership. But that was in another era and in another time. It is not applicable today.

The Bible says that we all submit one to another. That is true to some extent. We all have some areas in which we submit to someone: male or female.
There are some female CEO's as well. Would you dare rebel against one, if you are working for that company?
A woman should not have authority over a man (in the church).
DHK

 

There is an old addage that comes to me when I read this. I believe it was Paul who said woman should be silent in chuch. I'm wondering in his nobliity if he understood that woman should be silent and keep thier thoughts to themselves talking to thier husbands and pastors ect in private helping them decide. Behind every great man is a great woman. I've never seen a Great man without a woman at his side except maybe Paul and Jesus himself. I might be wrong but, I think many men rely on thier wives hearts in making decisions. Men rule the Body. Women rule the heart . But, if you put the two together, you have a very conscience decision
*slips back to her place*

Thank you for a moment of your time.

 

Scott, I wasn't trying to say anything against Deborah. I realize God chose her. I guess that posts cannot always reflect how someone feels when posting -- I am sort of thinking out loud and offering various responses to statements here to see what feedback I get because I am not decided on this issue.

The NT doesn't deal with women in positions of authority within governments at all.
</font>[/QUOTE]I agree.

Good points. I am still, however, uncomfortable with the idea of a woman president. As a woman, I just do not think most women have the kind of stamina and ability to be hard-nosed and tough to take the stress of leadership positions.

Women are relational and care about relationships more than making tough decisions. That is just how I feel and I realize there is nothing biblical, I guess, to back it up.

Many times when my son was a teen, I would observe how he and his friends interacted. They often spoke to each other without looking at each other and they did this while playing a video game or watching tv. They said things to each other that were sort of mean sometimes but were not bothered by it at all. I told my son once that if girls had talked like that to each other, they would have made each other cry.

 

Maybe... but then again, it takes an extraordinary individual to deal with that stress even if a man.

I didn't like Clinton or the way he conducts his business however he dealt with stress that I doubt many of us could fathom.

Thatcher is a good example of a woman who withstood brutal pressures like a rock.

By and large that is true. But again, we are talking about unique people regardless of gender. More men may be suited for the position as seemed to be the case for OT judges but that doesn't mean that no woman can be qualified.

Men seem to have thicker skin- good/bad/indifferent.

Men also have boundaries that are relatively fixed with regard to their tolerance of provocation. They are more apt to say "Sorry, you crossed the line and must pay the price".

Women see a problem and want to get close to the other person... men see a problem and want to determine where the boundaries are.

 

I agree with Marcia.

As an "older" woman I have worked for many men and many women over the years. I have only met one woman that I felt was really a good leader.

Not to trash my own gender, but - 99% of the women took a very emotional, cheerleader mentality to things that should have been about business. For instance: Go to a board meeting and tell a man you think his report needs work. Whether he agrees or disagrees with you, odds are, he'll go back to his office, rework the report. He may grumble that you are wrong, may grumble that he shouldn't have to redo it, but he probably WON'T say it is "personal" and "you don't like him," or talk about your hair, clothing, etc. Tell a woman her report is wrong, and it is almost certainly not going to be viewed as "about the report," but rather as some kind of personal grudge against her.

I also believe most men are really more aware of what matters.

I will never ever forget the day when we were about to undergo a major inspection of a certain agency that required an audit of all of our client files and all our financial records. My employer at the time was a male who asked me to go over the accounting records and confirm that everything was in order. I had a team working on that, went to a meeting with that boss. When we came back we discovered that the team had totally stopped their work, and in fact, removed all the paperwork and files related to the work from their desks. When we demanded an explanation we were told that the woman left in charge during our absence had insisted that they "clean the place up," and "put all that trashing looking stuff away." The woman's view was that if it looked nice and clean they would assume professionalism, and that if they saw a lot of paper they would assume incompetence. Needless to say, my boss over-ruled her, and finished the internal audit before the external audit took place.

 

My experience is the same as Texas Sky's.

As far as the Bible goes, people can only seem to cite Deborah, who was a prophetess chosen by God, so shouldn't we assume God enabled her to take this position and be able to do it? It may have had little to do with her natural abilities.

Everyone keeps bringing up Thatcher. Well, so what? Here we have thousands of men leaders and we've got Thatcher. Big deal. Hardly shows that women can do the job. If anything, it shows most women are not good leaders if all people can do is bring up Thatcher over and over. Which brings me to my next point. . .

My experience in the working world has shown me that to be on top, women have to be more like men, take on some of the traits that ScottJ points out (thanks for helping me make my point, Scott! ). I don't think that is biblical. They have to be tougher, override some of their feminine compassion, be "meaner," more blunt than they normally would be, etc. Yes, women can do that if they really have to and want to, but is it a good thing? Is it right? Is it biblical? I don't think so.

 

Thank you, rsr. My experience has been different than Marcia's and TexasSky's and I am an "older" (retired from working) woman.

Women can be leaders!

 

For the no women haveing any authority over any man in any sitaution(not including church which i also disagree with, but the rest of the world, job, goverment, etc)
what about the women on the board who have posistions of authority here over men, and even pastors?