Women in the Bible

[BobRyan]

Frank said --
Eph. 5:22-32. For a woman to have authority over a man in the church is a violation of God's ordained purpose and role for men and women.

You are extending the text to the point that the Role that God gave Deborah as Judge becomes "a violation of God's Law and Word".

You are interpreting scripture in such as way to force contraditions where none should exist.

Frank said --
The word prophet means a proclaimer of truth. One may prophesy in the presence of women, men, saint or sinner. The word itself does not define the situation in which the proclamation is performed.

In Numbers 12 God Himself says "IF there is a prophet among you I will speak to them by means of a dream or a vision".

In 1Cor 14 - Paul says that the prophets are to speak and ALL are to remain silent.

God constantly commands His people in His words "Hear His Prophets" and even to "Obey His Prophets".


Luke 24:25
And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!

Jeremiah 25:4
"And the LORD has sent to you all His servants the prophets again and again, but you have not listened nor inclined your ear to hear,

Luke 16:29
"But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'

2 Chronicles 20:20
So they rose early in the morning and went out into the Wilderness of Tekoa; and as they went out, Jehoshaphat stood and said, "Hear me, O Judah and you inhabitants of Jerusalem: Believe in the LORD your God, and you shall be established; believe His prophets, and you shall prosper."


It is an unsupportable assumption that these texts can be made to say "hear His prophets unless He makes the mistake of selecting a woman as prophet".

It is an unsupportable assertion to claim these texts can be made to say "hear them unless you are a man and they are a woman - and God has given them divine instruction".

Whether a Judge like Deborah over all of Israel - or a Prophetess like Miriam or like 'each one' in 1Cor 14 or like Philip's daughters - there is no exegetically sound way to get the text to say "men - please don't listen to these servants of God who have these spiritual gifts - for they are ... Women!".

Imagine that - God gives a message to one of His prophets and then actually "expects" His people to obey?? !! Yep! that is exactly what God's Word says.

Now - if we bend that back on itself or turn the text of 1Tim2 to sufficiently - we can insert a contradiction where none would otherwise be there.

Lets not do it.

So if you care to make your case using Deborah and Miriam - and combine that with the case you are trying to make (that it violates God's Law for them to have those spiritual gifts or those roles in the nation) then show the exegesis that supports your claims.

In Christ,

Bob

[ October 13, 2003, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[AngelforChrist]

Lets look at some examples of woman in the church and how they were really seen by Christ and Paul, since it seems there is a bias here taking only a couple scriptures out of context from Pauls letters :

Is there male or female in Christ? No - so lets see what was really happening at the time to understand the issues-Rabbinic parables pointedly avoided mentioning women, but Jesus often told stories relating to the life of women.

1)Paul never segregated women at all. He actively sought them out and set up operations in their homes (Lydia, Acts 16). Women and men were supposed to worship together (I Cor 11-14), and women were to pray and prophesy in church (e.g. I Cor 11.4).

Prior to the church , the jewish rabbis held a poor veiw of women not even allowing them to learn the scriptures and they were extremely opressed , so what would appear to be holding back , if seen in context of the teachings of the time , women were being empowered by Paul and they were likewise empowered by Christ .

2) Paul consistently let women help him in service. He refers often to women as 'fellow-laborers' and helpers--cf. Phil 4.3; Rom 16.1-2, 6, 12, et.al. Phoebe in Rom 16.1-2 is specially called a "deaconess"--a server, and he obviously stayed at Lydia's home (Acts 16).

3)Jesus often spoke to women in public; Jewish men shunned this -This is fairly obvious, for Paul preaches to women in public consistently, speaks directly to them in cultic settings (Lydia), works with them in private homes (Priscilla), addresses them in his correspondence (Phil 4.2; Philemon 2). There seems to be no setting in which Paul does NOT address a woman.

4)Women were used as witnesses in the resurrection accounts; they were not allowed as witnesses (generally) under Rabbinic law-Paul entrusted the 'official' letter-carrying task to a women (Phoebe, Rom 16.1-2; cf. The 'official' status of this role in Acts 15.22f ); and (2) the fact that he admitted women prophets! (I Cor 11.4). They were also called his 'co-workers'.

5)Christ allowed woman to follow him on his journeys where no jewish rabbiof the day would have ever done such a thing and Priscilla and Aquilla accompanied Paul on at least one journey, and that he recognized that he could have taken a wife along with him (I Cor 9.5). Obviously Phoebe was with Paul when he dispatched her to Rome (Rom 16.1-2).Why would he dispatch her to rome if she was of no authoritative position?

6)Jesus taught women freely, and sometimes in standard Rabbinical "style" (e.g. Luke 10.38-42).Jesus' attitude contrasts with the sentiments of the rabbis. In the Talmud, Rabbi Eliezer declared, 'There is no wisdom in a woman except with the distaff.' One version adds, 'It is better that the words of the Law should be burned, than that they should be given to a women.' In the Mishnah the same rabbi made a similarly strong statement when he said 'If a man gives his daughter a knowledge of the Law it is as though he taught her lechery.' Jesus broke with rabbinical tradition when he taught women and included them among his followers . Paul did not stray from this example.

7)Jesus accepted and valued women highly; the famous prayer of Rabbi Judah would not have been found on His lips: "Blessed be Thou for not having made me a Gentile, a woman, or an ignoramus." (Tosephta Berakoth 7, 18.)

Paul shatters the Rabbinic distinction in Gal 3.28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.. "Paul's statement in Galatians 3.28 is extraordinary for an ex-rabbi; it is very radical. The sexes are equal in salvation. Women have the same spiritual status before God as men. They are one in Christ.

For more see : Women in the Heart of God

 

[faithcontender]

Hi AngelforChrist,

When apostle Paul says that He does not suffer the woman to teach or to usurp authority in the church. He is not teaching that women are inferior to men.

It is true that that there is equality with God. He is not a respector of any person.
But He instituted different roles for man and woman. The husband is to be the head of the wife. and she is commanded to submit herself to her husband.

The same thing with women in the church. They are commanded not to teach and have leadership in the church.

Consider these argument:

WERE PAUL’S INSTRUCTIONS FOR ALL CHURCHES OF ALL CENTURIES?

Some are saying that the commands quoted above were meant only for first century Christians, or were only for the particular situation at Corinth. This cannot be true for many reasons. Consider:

First, Paul said that his instructions in 1 Corinthians 14 are the commandments of the Lord (verse 37). As such they must be obeyed by all Christians and by every church.

Second, the Apostle said that the instructions of 1 Corinthians 14 are a test of spirituality. He said that those who are truly spiritual must acknowledge that the instructions are the very commandments of God. “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord” (1 Cor. 14:37). Those who are rejecting the teaching of 1 Corinthians 14 concerning a woman’s role in the church are proving themselves to be unspiritual.

Third, in 1 Timothy the Apostle gives the very same instructions concerning women, and this epistle was said to have been written to teach the proper order for churches in general. “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth” (1 Tim. 3:15). The things contained in 1 Timothy are general instructions about church order to be obeyed by all churches in every century; and it is in this book, the book which contains standards for church leaders, that God has forbidden women from taking authority over or teaching men.

Fourth, in giving the instructions about women in the church, the Holy Spirit referred back to the original order of creation--Adam first, then Eve. The Holy Spirit, in guiding Paul’s pen, used this order of creation to prove that women must not take authority over men. Therefore, since the order of creation has not changed since 1 Timothy was written, and since it does not change in our culture or century, we know that the instructions of the New Testament about the woman’s role in the church apply to us today.

Fifth, Paul referred to the Fall for support of his teaching regarding the Christian woman’s subjection to the man. “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression” (1 Tim. 2:14). Again this shows that the Apostle’s teaching about the woman transcends any one culture or generation. Though we have been saved from the eternal consequences of the Fall when we receive the Lord Jesus Christ, we are still living under the abiding consequences and conditions of the Fall as long as we remain in this world.

Redemption has three aspects that must never be confused--past, present, and future. The three are seen in Romans chapter eight. Romans 8:1-10 speaks of the past aspect of our salvation--we have been saved from the eternal consequences of sin. Because of what Jesus Christ has done for us on the Cross we have been made eternally free from any fear of the wrath of God or punishment for our sin by God’s holy law. Hallelujah! Romans 8:11-17 speaks of the present aspect of our salvation--we are being saved from the power of sin in our daily lives by the Spirit of God who indwells us. Romans 8:18-25 speaks of the future aspect of salvation--we will be saved from the very presence of sin when Christ gives us our resurrection body and comes to renew this fallen creation. We have eternal redemption right now as a present possession, yet we still “groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body” (Romans 8:23).

Likewise, the woman who trusts Christ receives eternal freedom in Him from the wages of sin, but she is not yet free from some of the consequences of Eve’s rebellion in the Garden of Eden. She still is to be in subjection to the man.

Sixth, Paul referred to human nature to support his teaching regarding women. “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression” (1 Tim. 2:14). The woman has a different makeup than the man. She was designed for a different role in life--that of a wife and mother. Her emotional, psychological, and rational makeup are geared perfectly for this, but she was not designed for leadership. In the garden of Eden the devil deceived her. This was not true for Adam. He sinned, but he was not deceived. Eve had allowed herself to be thrust into a position of decision making she was not supposed to occupy. It is no coincidence that women have been responsible for starting many of the false Christian movements and have played key roles in spiritism, new age, mind science cults, and such. Human nature has not changed and neither has God’s restrictions against women preachers.

Seventh, Paul commanded that his instructions were to be kept until Christ’s coming. “That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Tim. 6:14). This command is given at the end of the epistle in which the Apostle had so clearly required that women be in subjection to men in the church (1 Tim. 2:9-15). Since Jesus has not yet appeared, we are to continue to maintain these restrictions.

Eighth, Paul’s letter to Corinth, in which he spoke of women being in subjection to men, was for all Christians, not just those in Corinth. In his introduction to this epistle the Apostle tells us plainly to whom he is speaking: “Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, WITH ALL THAT IN EVERY PLACE CALL UPON THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD, both their’s and our’s” (1 Cor. 1:2). It is clear that Paul’s instructions were not intended merely for some peculiar situation at Corinth.

Ninth, while Galatians 3:28 says there is neither bond nor free in Christ, other passages teach that this does not mean there are no servant/master relationships. The Christian servant is free in Christ--free from the eternal wages of sin--but he is not free from his earthly position and responsibilities of servitude toward his master (Eph. 6:5-8; Col. 3:22-25; 1 Tim. 6:1,2; Tit. 2:9-10; 1 Pet. 2:18-25). In fact, anyone who teaches against these instructions regarding submission of servants to masters is labeled proud and evil:

“Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. IF ANY MAN TEACH OTHERWISE, AND CONSENT NOT TO WHOLESOME WORDS, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; HE IS PROUD, KNOWING NOTHING, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of CORRUPT MINDS, AND DESTITUTE OF THE TRUTH, supposing that gain is godliness: FROM SUCH WITHDRAW THYSELF” (1 Timothy 6:1-5).

These are strong words, and they refer directly to those who try to contradict the Apostle’s teaching requiring subjection of servants to masters, such as those who promote communistic “liberation theology,” and those who stir up all sorts of strife between workers and business. These words also apply to those who are trying to throw off the apostolic teaching referring to woman’s subjection to man in the church and home. Such are proud, ungodly, and destitute of the truth, and are to be separated from! We can see how serious this matter is.

Galatians 3:28 says there are no servants and no freemen in Christ, yet other New Testament passages teach there are indeed Christians who are servants and Christians who are masters. Galatians 3:28 also says there is neither male nor female in Christ, but other passages show us that this does not mean all distinction between the sexes are done away in this world, nor does it mean that the original order of creation has been dissolved in Christianity.

Excerpt from:
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/womenpreachers.htm

 

[Frank]

Bob:
I am not contending for the old law and it's imperfections. Under the old law, polygamy, slavery, and divorce for any cause were allowed. However, the New Testament of Christ does not allow for such things. The same is true for women leaders in the church. There is no authority for such a practice.

Furthermore, God gave the reason for the distinctiveness in the roles for men and women. He first formed Adam then Eve. Eve was deceived, not Adam. I Tim. 2:12,13. If Adam had exercised his leadership role properly given him. He would have told Eve, NO! eating this fruit is forbidden. However, because he abdicated his role as leader, sin entered the world.

Moreover,The text of I Cor. 14 is an admonition against the very thing you are advocating. In short, the letter was to correct women from speaking amongst the congregation. Note. I Cor. 14:34.  ¶Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

God has ordained under the law of Christ:
1. Women be in subjection.
2. Men lead the congregations.
3. Women learn in subjection. I Tim. 3:1-11, I Tim. 2:10-13. A woman can no more be the husband of one wife than a man can be the wife of one husband.

Furthermore, a man cannot be a younger woman marry, bear children. I Tim. 5:14.
A man cannot be a widow well reported of good works: if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers and washed the feet of the saints. I Tim. 5: 10.
A man cannot be an aged woman and teach the younger ones to love their husbands, Titus 2:4,5.
These are roles ordained by God for women, not men.
The roles of men and women are clearly defined by the new testament of Christ. We must accept our God given role or reject it. John 12:48.

[ October 14, 2003, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Frank ]

 

[Michael Wrenn]

People often ignore scripture passages which speak of mutual submission--I wonder why.

And there were clearly women deaconesses; I know people don't want to admit that--for the obvious reasons.

 

[AngelforChrist]

Faithcontender , your post is unbelievably biggoted and out of context - the verse on slaves and masters does NOT apply to the male female relationship , unless you are willing to claim Christ was a slave to the disciples when He washed their feet, Submissive means to serve - not be a servant as under a master in slavery. A man is not shown to be a womans master , that is utterly ridiculous .

May I suggest you study a little hebrew and greek theology? A woman learning in silence and submissiveness was not a call to put a woman under a man , it was a call to teach woman how to learn the the things of the church and the scriptures under a teacher as in like a rabbi - because woman had previously not even been allowed inside the temples under rabbis - Christ and Paul both gave women freedom in Christ , not bondage to men .

When a male hebrew student was to study the law , He was under submission to a Rabbi , He was to learn in silence (not meaning to be quiet- but this means not to teach others while learning). It meant to show respect to the teacher as in one wiser in the things of God - respect in the elders . It is the egos of men who desire to ignore the context of the situation and what is being adressed and even ignore History as well other verses on this issue . For the FIRST time , women were able to be students of the scriptures and the things of the church , they were freed , not bound .

Now if you dont believe women can teach tell me what Pricilla was in your opinion . Bad theology is to ignore tons of scripture to force a poor interpretation of a couple scriptures while ignoring context , situation , theocracy , society , and history .

 

[BobRyan]

Frank said -- Bob:
I am not contending for the old law and it's imperfections. Under the old law, polygamy, slavery, and divorce for any cause were allowed. However, the New Testament of Christ does not allow for such things. The same is true for women leaders in the church. There is no authority for such a practice.

Sounds good Frank - until we remember that God Himself made Adam and Eve. It was HE who saw Eve fall - and it was HE who gave the prophetic ministry to Miriam and who gave the ministry of being a judge to Deborah.

There is never any condemnation of God for that in all of scripture - NOR is there condemnation of Miriam or Deborah for accepting those ministries. In fact 1Cor 12 makes it very clear that God is the one that selects who gets what ministry - not man.

Arguing that women are not allowed to have the minsitry that God gave them because Eve was tempted and thus from the fall onward - it has been determined by God that women not have those ministries that He gave them in the OT and the NT - is to make a contradiction of scripture.

Arguing that women have "less" freedom in Christ after the Cross than before it - is opposed to the liberating - freedom God's people find in the cross of Christ.

Indeed - Paul never states that "after the cross God is no longer allowed to give women the ministries that they He could give them before the cross".

Although your point above seems to make that argument - we do not find such a position in the NT.

Paul's arguments are all "no-change" since the fall of mankind. He argues that the "reasons" for the various roles of men and women were established since the fall - not since the cross. He argues for "one Gospel" in all ages and "one" sin problem fully established at the fall of mankind.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Angel and Bob,

Excellent posts!

I'll comment more later...

 

[faithcontender]

Faithcontender , your post is unbelievably biggoted and out of context - the verse on slaves and masters does NOT apply to the male female relationship , unless you are willing to claim Christ was a slave to the disciples when He washed their feet.

Did i say these?

Submissive means to serve - not be a servant as under a master in slavery. A man is not shown to be a womans master , that is utterly ridiculous .

That's true.

May I suggest you study a little hebrew and greek theology?

Not necessary the teaching of the Scriptures are very clear on these. And i don't want to be proud in not obeying it.

A woman learning in silence and submissiveness was not a call to put a woman under a man , it was a call to teach woman how to learn the the things of the church and the scriptures under a teacher as in like a rabbi - because woman had previously not even been allowed inside the temples under rabbis - Christ and Paul both gave women freedom in Christ , not bondage to men .

Yes they can learn the things of God under a teacher not to be a teacher among men in the church. Yes! Christ gave women freedom in Christ to serve and follow Him not to disobey his teaching. Wife submitting to husband is not being in bondage it's folowing the will of God.

When a male hebrew student was to study the law , He was under submission to a Rabbi , He was to learn in silence (not meaning to be quiet- but this means not to teach others while learning). It meant to show respect to the teacher as in one wiser in the things of God - respect in the elders . It is the egos of men who desire to ignore the context of the situation and what is being adressed and even ignore History as well other verses on this issue . For the FIRST time , women were able to be students of the scriptures and the things of the church , they were freed , not bound .

Women can be a student of the Scriptures and be a teacher among women not among men in the church.

Now if you dont believe women can teach tell me what Pricilla was in your opinion . Bad theology is to ignore tons of scripture to force a poor interpretation of a couple scriptures while ignoring context , situation , theocracy , society , and history .

We can not find in the bible that Priscilla teach and take leadership in the church. She knows the teaching of apostle Paul, she obeyed.

 

[Frogman]

24  ¶And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25  This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26  And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

hang in there faithcontender. The above context does not show Priscilla taught in the 'context' of the church.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

[Frank]

Bob:
God has selected. He chose men. This is what the new testament of Christ teaches. There is no scriptural support for your argument by declarative statement, example, or implication from the totality of the harmonious evidence.
The context of I Cor. 12,13,14 was to admonish the proper use of gifts, and to correct abuses of them. I Cor. 14:34.

No matter how many times you say differently, the Bible will still say for the women to be in subjection. It will still read men are to be elders and deacons as per I Tim. 3:1-11, Titus 1:4-9. It will never authorize women as leaders in the church which belongs to Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

It is not a rejection of God's Word to accept all 66 books as inspired scripture. After all - Paul writes to Timothy (speaking primarily of the OT) saying "All scripture is given by inspiration from God and is profitable for use in doctrine".

AS for God divinely and sovereignly electing to give women in the OT and NT the gift and ministry of a prophet - there is no question.

As for the direction God gives in both OT and NT as to the church's obligation and responsibility (and indeed command) to listen to His prophets - (as already posted) there is no question.

The debate comes about when we try to resolve those clear examples with the interpretation that we place on Paul's view of the role of women in the church - as it is determined by the fact of the fall of mankind. (Notice that Paul never makes reference to the cross in his statements regarding women - as if something changed there).

I don't know that we can actually resolve differences - but my purpose is to expose the underlying reasons and doctrinal hurdles that must be overcome to try to re-interpret the rest of scripture as it clearly shows the role of women as prophets and judges - in view of Paul's statements about the fall of Adam and Eve.

In Christ,

Bob