Women, pants, KJVO and conservatism

[Bartimaeus]

Please clarify.
As far as conservative viewpoints, I don't care about conservatism. Conservatism is the enemy of reformation. Our country and our churches are in great need of reformation and holding on to little traditions of man isn't getting us anywhere.


Not just this issue but many others as well are practically forced upon people.
I have seen two results time after time with girls that are raised with pharisaical rules. ONe is that they grow up to be self righteous and the other is that they rebel entirely.

I for one do not plan to enforce rules on my family that are greater than what the Bible demands.

Dale,
I know you spoke of political conservatism, but I raised the issue of spiritual conservatism in opposition to a libertine attitude on holy living.

2nd
Be careful about your "plans", although yours may be correct. Remember the Lord only gave Adam and Eve one rule and they failed. It is not the number of rules or that they are necessarily forced (many rules of life are enforced on children, that doesn't make the rules wrong), because.........some children even with the best of circumstances still turn out as rebels to the Word of God (down deep in thier hearts) and thier parents never find out about it.

Lastly, I am glad that the total of your experience and mine also is not the only way "girls" turn out.

Thanks Bartimaeus/Ky/Look Away!

 

[Dale-c]

I know you spoke of political conservatism, but I raised the issue of spiritual conservatism in opposition to a libertine attitude on holy living.

Yes, I understood that. I did want to point out though conserving traditions, even good ones, without the proper Biblical basis is wrong. There are times when parents make rules for their kids due to certain circumstances. In that circumstance, the rule is a very good one but if the kid doesn't understand when he is grown why that rule was there, they may still keep the actual "rule" for the wrong reason, while violating the actual spirit of the rule their parents made for them.

Be careful about your "plans", although yours may be correct. Remember the Lord only gave Adam and Eve one rule and they failed. It is not the number of rules or that they are necessarily forced (many rules of life are enforced on children, that doesn't make the rules wrong), because.........some children even with the best of circumstances still turn out as rebels to the Word of God (down deep in thier hearts) and thier parents never find out about it.

THat is wise counsel and I probably should have thought a little more about that before I said it. I am already trying to keep my babies fingers out of her mouth. That is not a Biblical command of course
I should have stated that I don't plan to teach them things as Biblically wrong when they are really not.

A really good example would be TV, if I decided not to have a TV, there would be plenty of good reasons but it would be wrong for me to say the TV itself is wrong, when in fact the TV itself is not wrong. That is what I am getting at, I wasn't clear at first.

Lastly, I am glad that the total of your experience and mine also is not the only way "girls" turn out.

Yes, thank God for his grace.


DC

 

[DHK]

Who is denying who what?

Here is your quote:
"that is not the role of the pastor to enforce."
Who are you to say what the preacher can or cannot preach in his own pulpit. You deny the basic principle of soul liberty and act as the pope of the Baptists in dictating what can and can not be preached in the pulpits of Baptist churches across America. It is the height of arrogancy.
The role of the pastor is to preach what he believes is right according to the Bible as the Holy Spirit has led him, whether or not it agrees with your hobby horse or not.

Wait, it is just my opinion that pastors should not force people to do that which is not in the Bible?

An assumption not proved by facts. This is strictly your opinion and you can't back it up.

Ok, forget for a minute on the particular topic, a pastor, even if he thinks he is right has no right to force a man made rule on people in his church.

This is where you go off the deep end and assume facts not in evidence. Who said anything about the use of "force." We are not Muslims forcing our women to wear "burkahs." For the most part churches that have dress standards, preach them from the pulpit. It is up to the people to be convicted in the heart and change on their own accord. No one forces them to do so. However in many churches (if not most) leaders must adhere to a certain dress standard. That usually means suits for men and dresses for women--whether you are the pastor, the song leader, or a soloist or piano player. There is a standard for the leaders of the church to take heed to.

If a pastor wants to preach on modesty, go for it.
There are Biblical standard of modesty. BUt in areas that are not defined by the Bible, that is left to the family and the individual.

You are stating your opinion again. And you have the right to it. There are many on this board that believe that a standard of modesty can adequately be defined by the Bible. If you haven't come that far in you spiritual life, than so be it.

I don't get you, on one hand, you say that there is personal liberty that I am infringing if I say that a pastor can't infringe on the personal liberty of a person in his church. Where is the logic in that?

There is soul liberty. You deny that there is. Your statement is that a pastor should not force things that are not in the Bible--referring to dress standards. That is a denial of soul liberty. I tell you what. You come to my church and ask to speak dressed in a bathing suit, and I will deny you the right. Am I right or wrong? As the pastor of the church I have every right to "to force things according to the Bible." And you believe that your opinion is that pasors are forcing your opinion. It is your opinion that cannot be backed up by the Bible. You are in error in this point.

Pastors have every right to preach what the bible says. We as lay people are commanded to judge righteously.

With a statement like the one that I quoted of yours, you obviously are prejudiced, don't believe in soul liberty, and are not judging righteously. You are judging according to your bias and prejudices. It is a good thing that you didn't live in the Victorian Era, when even the "baring of the ankles" was a shame.

The subject of pants though is just like eating meats sacrificed to idols.
To some, ALL pants are as mens apparel or immodest etc. To others, they are just a practical garment. The specifics here are NOT defined in the Bible and no man has the right to create rules the Bible doesn't.

No man has the right to deny the soul liberty of another, just because he has a biased opinion that cannot be backed up in the Bible.

 

[Dale-c]

No man has the right to deny the soul liberty of another, just because he has a biased opinion that cannot be backed up in the Bible.

You make no sense. You are accusing me of denying soul liberty for saying that a pastor should not do that to his congregation.

Talk about being a pope. Somehow the only one that can demand his opinion is the pastor?

For the record, I do have my own standards of modesty that I enforce in my own home. I don't enforce them on my friends because that isn't my place.

What people do in their homes in none of the business of the pastor unless it violates the bible, not just violates the rules of the pastor.

I am DEFENDING soul liberty here.
I don't know where you get that I am attacking it.

 

[Dale-c]

There is soul liberty. You deny that there is.

NOWHERE have I denied this. I have done the opposite!

You however are saying that pastors CAN do this "if they feel led to"

 

[J.D.]

Dale, I don't understand what DHK's point is either. Is he trying to spur more debate?

 

[tinytim]

If more preachers would preach the blood of Christ instead of pants, versions, and other things, the world would change.

But what happens? We get 25 ot 40 minutes to speak something worthwhile from the pulpit, only to waste that time condemning other Christians because they don't live the way we live...

Amazing....

 

[Dale-c]

Dale, I don't understand what DHK's point is either. Is he trying to spur more debate?

Good, I am glad I am not going crazy! I couldn't a bit of sense out of his posts.

 

[Dale-c]

If I said:

"Pastors shoudln't say murder and adultery is good from the pulpit"
Would that be infringing on their "soul liberty"???

 

[Mike Berzins]

If more preachers would preach the blood of Christ instead of pants, versions, and other things, the world would change.

But what happens? We get 25 ot 40 minutes to speak something worthwhile from the pulpit, only to waste that time condemning other Christians because they don't live the way we live...

Amazing....

But clothing standards and versions are important as well. If a lady in a bikini stood up and preached the blood of Christ out of the NWT, would people be won to the Lord?

The principle is the same, you just draw your line on clothing and versions at a different place than some do.

 

[Salty]

If more preachers would preach the blood of Christ instead of pants, versions, and other things, the world would change.

But what happens? We get 25 ot 40 minutes to speak something worthwhile from the pulpit, only to waste that time condemning other Christians because they don't live the way we live...

Amazing....

Tiny, we dont condem you, even if you do live in WV:laugh:

 

[av1611jim]

But clothing standards and versions are important as well. If a lady in a bikini stood up and preached the blood of Christ out of the NWT, would people be won to the Lord?

The principle is the same, you just draw your line on clothing and versions at a different place than some do.

And THIS post seems to me to be the whole argument in this thread.
Some draw their line here________
Some draw their line there_________________________

The "shorties" call the "longies" legalists. But in fact the "shorties" do not even know what the term means. No one of the "longie" persuasion that I know of says you cannot be saved unless you have a long line.
THIS is legalism; it is ADDING to salvation the required works of the Mosaic law. Period. Mosaic law. Don't believe it? Then your Biblical knowledge is sadly lacking and you have succumbed to the pratting of this worldly churchianity society in which we find ourselves today.

What I suspect the "shorties" mean by calling others legalistic is in fact PHARISEEISM. Not Legalism. There is a difference, and many on this board need to learn the difference. Spouting off at the mouth that so-n-so is legalistic does nothing but incite dissension. You ought to know better.

OTOH; there are SOME "longies" who say you are not right with God if you have a short line. But the fact is that the "shorties" just MAY be right with God at that point in their life. God brings his dear children along.

Liberty. As long as it doesn't promote or encourage unholiness in your brother, should be the watch word here.

EVERY pastor has the God given directive to preach to his flock what God leads him to preach. And NOBODY has any right to say differently. It is to God and God alone that said pastor answers to.

Don't like it? Then find a different church. One which will be more to your liking. In the meantime, who are YOU to bring an accusation against God's man? To his OWN Master he stands or falls.


Disclaimer:
(This post was not directed to the man I quoted. I used his post as a spring board. I am directing comments to the general audience of this thread.)

 

[menageriekeeper]

But clothing standards and versions are important as well. If a lady in a bikini stood up and preached the blood of Christ out of the NWT, would people be won to the Lord?

The principle is the same, you just draw your line on clothing and versions at a different place than some do.

Well I gotta ask? Will the Word of God come back void? You know I'm going to answer my own question.

Isa 55:9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.Isa 55:10For as the rain cometh down and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, and giveth seed to the sower and bread to the eater;Isa 55:11so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


Php 1:15Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good willhp 1:16the one [do it] of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel;Php 1:17but the other proclaim Christ of faction, not sincerely, thinking to raise up affliction for me in my bonds.Php 1:18What then? only that in every way, whether in pretence or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and therein I rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Now if Paul said he could rejoice in someone preaching Christ with less than intolorable, who are you to complain about a woman in a bikini proclaiming the gospel? I admit it would be an odd sight but stranger things could happen.

 

[tinytim]

But clothing standards and versions are important as well. If a lady in a bikini stood up and preached the blood of Christ out of the NWT, would people be won to the Lord?

The principle is the same, you just draw your line on clothing and versions at a different place than some do.

I see what you are saying here.
But I would rather address these issues in Bible Study, where they can be hashed out.

I guess it is because, I see Sunday morning Worship, Sunday Evening Worship, and Wednesday evening Bible study as three different levels in church life...

Sunday morning there are a lot of visitors, I am speaking to a varied crowd from spiritual babes to spiritual giants, and I have to feed them all.

Sunday Evening, I go more into specific doctrine, because usually it is the truly faithful that show up...

Wednesday evening, is where we get into the real meat of the word.. Again it is the faithful that show up.

Sooooo.... That is where i am coming from...
I may address these issues on Wed, but probably not Sunday morning... I can think of more important practical basic lessons that need to be taught to the babes in Christ.

BTW, I am not against pants on women, and other versions.

 

[Pistos]

hold your horses, ladies and gentlemen, before labelling those preachers and pastors after so many names... hehehe... just consider this matter.

I'm working here in middle east where women are mandated to where an 'Abaya' see picture...

women must wear this all the time outside.

At first, I said it is absurb even for non-muslim to wear it (for my wife). But I realized it is also for my wife's protection from lustful men or they call it here 'evil-eyes'.

So take consider about wearing modest dress, For me it is NOT good for women wearing shorts shirts, sleeveless and lowered-neck-line in public places or even pants... I believe what pastors and preachers hate about pants is that it shows the curve of the body, especially the buttocks and hips and front.

I heard the LUST for men is triggered by the eyes, and women by touch. Fashionable clothes are good but choose the right one for you.

 

[bapmom]

av1611Jim,

you're right!

It gets very discouraging to come here and seemingly always be called legalistic just because I only wear dresses. It gets hard to take.......because the only people who have ever called me that have been other Christians.

tinytim, my preacher sees his services much the same way you do, I think. There are three quite distinct groups coming to those different services, and they all need to hear different things. You'll not hear much preaching against "what all those others out there do...." at our church, it's about what me and the rest of us are up to who are sitting there in the pews. Preaching against what some guy in Timbuctu is doing isnt helpful as he's in Timbuctu. I need to hear what IM doing.

but then, is the purpose of this whole thread just to try and make conservatives feel bad? That's all it did for me, though it isn't going to make me change my standards just because some of ya'all don't like them.

ps Merry CHristmas

 

[jne1611]

av1611Jim,

you're right!

It gets very discouraging to come here and seemingly always be called legalistic just because I only wear dresses. It gets hard to take.......because the only people who have ever called me that have been other Christians.

tinytim, my preacher sees his services much the same way you do, I think. There are three quite distinct groups coming to those different services, and they all need to hear different things. You'll not hear much preaching against "what all those others out there do...." at our church, it's about what me and the rest of us are up to who are sitting there in the pews. Preaching against what some guy in Timbuctu is doing isnt helpful as he's in Timbuctu. I need to hear what IM doing.

but then, is the purpose of this whole thread just to try and make conservatives feel bad? That's all it did for me, though it isn't going to make me change my standards just because some of ya'all don't like them.

ps Merry CHristmas

If you feel you have a Biblical conviction you are upholding. Don't let what anyone else says bother you in the least!

 

[bapmom]

thank you jne :wavey:


btw, I truly hope you all are having a marvelous Christmas day!

 

[Dale-c]

but then, is the purpose of this whole thread just to try and make conservatives feel bad? That's all it did for me, though it isn't going to make me change my standards just because some of ya'all don't like them.

I started this thread and quite frankly, I don't care what you wear within reason. I did not start this thread as an attack against women who don't wear pants.
I didn't start this as an attack against people that use the KJV only.
I use the KJV actually.

The reason for this was WAS to point out Godless conservatism. THat is, to make sure your reasons are Biblical and not simply tradition for doing what you do.

If you don't wear pants, that is neither legalism, sin or righteousness in and of itself.
You are NOT winning brownie points with God be not wearing pants. Neither are you sinning by it.
If you choose to dress that way you are perfectly within your Biblical liberty to do so.
The only thing I would stress is please don't confuse your standards with absolute Biblical commands when they aren't.

 

[bapmom]

Thank you Dale,

I appreciate your candor.

I know I came to my standards through conviction and Bible study. In fact, they are not how I was raised, nor did they agree with the church I was attending at the time.

I definitely see your point, as I know some who fit what you are saying.