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Women pastors or deacons? Can we attempt to clarify the issue?
- Thread starter thisnumbersdisconnected
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Really?
Paul would disagree with your statement as written.
1 Corinthians 14:
34The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
1 Timothy 2:
11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
Kind of hard for a woman to do all the "work of the pastoral ministry" under these conditions in Scriptures.
Not everyone has the the gift, ability, talent, and/or expertise.
Some have more intellectual ability to handle mathematics, or languages. Spelling is as much a gift as being able to do advanced calculus. Some folks have the innate mechanical ability, others may be great at organization, while others may be endowed with insight (and the list could go on). Some have crossovers in which they may be able to do two or more of these well but not to the level of accomplishment another has.
The point being, that God gives spheres of influence and responsibility to believers to be used as helpers and guides to the whole assembly. He never gave one gift to puff someone up in authority over another, but that each person's strength enhances the life and living of everyone else.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here is perhaps the intent of what you are attempting to communicate is not what is read.
In that case: God is not a respecter of persons.
So with that intent you would be correct.
God doesn't care for popularity, beauty, or other "reality" show contests.
What He desires is you to worship Him in truth and spirit from the core of "you."
He will provide the believer with what is needed in the way of talent and the Holy Spirit will develop the gifts (love, joy, peace, long-suffering...) as one matures in Christ.
Be careful not to envy what ability or position someone else may have.
Proverbs 14:30
"A tranquil heart is the life of the flesh; But envy is the rottenness of the bones."
Be faithful. It is of interest that Peter and Paul took notice of the faithfulness of others. (1 Peter 5:12 , Ephesians 6:21)
Remember Christ took notice and praised the woman who gave the least, have we all not more to give?
He noticed the difference between Martha and Mary.
James (probably the half brother of Christ) must have been from Missouri - "show me" he says.
Be doing the word - not a hearer only.
So I read accurate intent in your statement, just with a bit of clarification.
If I am wrong in my assumption, then I apologize for misunderstanding your post.
God calls and equips men and women in all aspects of ministry but He also has specific roles for them. A woman called to "pastoral" type duties has great opportunity working with women. Trust me - women need the leading of a godly woman who understands the roles that God has ordained and who works within those guidelines to do great things for the kingdom. But He never will call a woman to be a pastor and any woman who says that He has is lying.
Just a few thoughts to add to the discourse.
Acts 6:2, 3 So the twelve summoned the congregation of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable for us to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables. Therefore, brethren, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task."
The Apostles had the opportunity during the events of Acts 6 to put to rest whether women could serve as deacons. Instead they gave instruction to select seven men.
The subject of female deacons was born out of pragmatism. It is a result of men failing to carry out their God ordained duties within the church. Man's abdication of his responsibilities first began with Adam in the Garden (Gen. 3:6). Deborah came into prominence because Barak failed to heed the word of the Lord (Judges 5:9). To a lesser extent we can mention Jezebel, who usurped Ahab's authority.
When Paul prohibited women from exercising authority over a man (1 Tim. 2:12-15), it is the reason why that matters, not the prohibition itself. Paul used as his reason the created order (v. 13) and the fact the woman was deceived by the serpent (v. 14). Adam was not deceived. He sinned with full volition.
Are women prohibited from doing the work of ministry? No. I believe the scripture teaches they are prohibited from holding an ordained office in the church and from exercising authority over a man.
Acts 6:2, 3 So the twelve summoned the congregation of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable for us to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables. Therefore, brethren, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task."
The Apostles had the opportunity during the events of Acts 6 to put to rest whether women could serve as deacons. Instead they gave instruction to select seven men.
The subject of female deacons was born out of pragmatism. It is a result of men failing to carry out their God ordained duties within the church. Man's abdication of his responsibilities first began with Adam in the Garden (Gen. 3:6). Deborah came into prominence because Barak failed to heed the word of the Lord (Judges 5:9). To a lesser extent we can mention Jezebel, who usurped Ahab's authority.
When Paul prohibited women from exercising authority over a man (1 Tim. 2:12-15), it is the reason why that matters, not the prohibition itself. Paul used as his reason the created order (v. 13) and the fact the woman was deceived by the serpent (v. 14). Adam was not deceived. He sinned with full volition.
Are women prohibited from doing the work of ministry? No. I believe the scripture teaches they are prohibited from holding an ordained office in the church and from exercising authority over a man.
So glad there exist groups, denominations and churches who choose to affirm the Holy Spirit can and will call women, the Kingdom of God has benefited in countless ways. These wonderfully courageous women are not liars, they are servants of the most high God and I'm thankful for everyone of them.
The exaltation of scripture over and against the Holy Spirit in this area reflects a legalism that was repeatedly condemned by none other than Jesus himself.
The exaltation of scripture over and against the Holy Spirit in this area reflects a legalism that was repeatedly condemned by none other than Jesus himself.
Since Scripture was written by the Holy Spirit, you couldn't be more wrong. Amazing that something so clear can be twisted to say it doesn't mean what it says. Thank God for churches that abide by God's Word and don't conform it to their desires!
Who chose 12 men in his close circle.
This is Gnosticism. It is everything that is wrong with the Charismatic movement. Once we discard the written revelation of God -- the Bible -- as the sole source of authority for all matters of faith and practice, we elevate our own subjective experience as the final arbiter of spiritual truth.
Baptists historically have been firmly rooted on the sufficiency of scripture. Any belief or movement that adds experience to the sufficiency of scripture is advocating the serpent's lie (Gen. 3:1), "Indeed, has God said?"
For all the division that is among us on this board, cannot the majority of us agree on the sufficiency of scripture, especially when it is openly advocated against?
Are you sure you understand Gnosticism? That isn't even close to what I said. In fact I said the opposite.
Gnosticism
Gnosticism is a heresy which is made up of a diverse set of beliefs. It is the teaching based on the idea of gnosis (a Koine Greek word meaning "secret knowledge"), or knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of internal, intuitive means. While Gnosticism thus relies on personal religious experience as its primary authority, early "Christian" Gnostics did adopt their own versions of authoritative Scriptures, such as those found at Nag Hammadi in Egypt.
What we know about Gnosticism comes from Irenaeus who studied twenty of the most influential Gnostic writers and defined and criticized their beliefs. Other early church fathers, such as Tertullian and Origen also provide information regarding Gnostic beliefs. Lastly, many Gnostic writings were discovered at the Nag Hammadi Library. Nag Hammadi is a town in Upper Egypt near ancient Chenoboskion and 13 codices were discovered about 1945.
General beliefs
The following information is taken from Olson, The Story of Christian Theology, p. 37.
Matter or materiality
Gnostics believed that matter, whether it be the physical universe or the humanly body, is evil. It is obvious that there is a great tension between spirit and matter. This effects many of their beliefs and especially the way they perceive(d) the world and God's interactions with it.
God
God is wholly transcendent, that is, he is far removed from his creation. He did not create the material universe because it was instead created by an evil or lesser God, sometimes called a "demiurge". God is thus too perfect and pure to have much to do with the evilness of the material universe.
Humanity
Gnostics believed that human beings were "sparks" or "droplets" of the very same spiritual substance (or essence) that God is. Somehow we we became trapped in our physical bodies from which we are to escape.
The Fall
All Gnostics agreed that The Fall was identical to the fall into matter. In other words, creation and The Fall coincide. "As long as spirits are trapped in physical bodies and materiality, they will be subject to sin, which is caused by ignorance of their true nature and home."
Salvation
Gnosticism commonly held that "salvation is to escape from the bondage of the material existence and travel back to the home from which souls/spirits have fallen." God initiates salvation because he wants to draw back the stray bits and pieces of himself, and so he sends forth an emanation of himself - "a spiritual redeemer" - who comes down from heaven and gives an attempt to teach some of the "divine sparks of Spirit" what their true identity is and where their real home lies. Once they are awakened by this redeemer they can then begin their journey back home. "Salvation is by knowledge - self-knowledge."
Jesus
Lastly, as far as most scholars know, Gnostics considered themselves Christians and saw Jesus as a heavenly messenger. However, they rejected the idea of God becoming incarnate (God becoming a man), dying and rising bodily. "These beliefs were considered unspiritual and against true wisdom because they entangled spirit with matter." Most Gnostics believe that whoever entered Jesus at his baptism left him before he died on the cross.
Gnosticism's present existence
This heretical view is still in existence today, both in various secretive cults and in such pop religious movements as astrology or alchemy.
The Masonic movement has been referred to as a Gnostic movement. The popular book The Da Vinci Code (2003, Doubleday) by Dan Brown promotes Gnostic ideas as it attempts to undermine orthodox Christianity.
References
Roger E. Olson, The Story of Christian Theology: Twenty Centuries of Tradition & Reform. (IVP, 1999) ISBN 0830815058
http://www.theopedia.com/Gnosticism
Gnosticism
Gnosticism is a heresy which is made up of a diverse set of beliefs. It is the teaching based on the idea of gnosis (a Koine Greek word meaning "secret knowledge"), or knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of internal, intuitive means. While Gnosticism thus relies on personal religious experience as its primary authority, early "Christian" Gnostics did adopt their own versions of authoritative Scriptures, such as those found at Nag Hammadi in Egypt.
What we know about Gnosticism comes from Irenaeus who studied twenty of the most influential Gnostic writers and defined and criticized their beliefs. Other early church fathers, such as Tertullian and Origen also provide information regarding Gnostic beliefs. Lastly, many Gnostic writings were discovered at the Nag Hammadi Library. Nag Hammadi is a town in Upper Egypt near ancient Chenoboskion and 13 codices were discovered about 1945.
General beliefs
The following information is taken from Olson, The Story of Christian Theology, p. 37.
Matter or materiality
Gnostics believed that matter, whether it be the physical universe or the humanly body, is evil. It is obvious that there is a great tension between spirit and matter. This effects many of their beliefs and especially the way they perceive(d) the world and God's interactions with it.
God
God is wholly transcendent, that is, he is far removed from his creation. He did not create the material universe because it was instead created by an evil or lesser God, sometimes called a "demiurge". God is thus too perfect and pure to have much to do with the evilness of the material universe.
Humanity
Gnostics believed that human beings were "sparks" or "droplets" of the very same spiritual substance (or essence) that God is. Somehow we we became trapped in our physical bodies from which we are to escape.
The Fall
All Gnostics agreed that The Fall was identical to the fall into matter. In other words, creation and The Fall coincide. "As long as spirits are trapped in physical bodies and materiality, they will be subject to sin, which is caused by ignorance of their true nature and home."
Salvation
Gnosticism commonly held that "salvation is to escape from the bondage of the material existence and travel back to the home from which souls/spirits have fallen." God initiates salvation because he wants to draw back the stray bits and pieces of himself, and so he sends forth an emanation of himself - "a spiritual redeemer" - who comes down from heaven and gives an attempt to teach some of the "divine sparks of Spirit" what their true identity is and where their real home lies. Once they are awakened by this redeemer they can then begin their journey back home. "Salvation is by knowledge - self-knowledge."
Jesus
Lastly, as far as most scholars know, Gnostics considered themselves Christians and saw Jesus as a heavenly messenger. However, they rejected the idea of God becoming incarnate (God becoming a man), dying and rising bodily. "These beliefs were considered unspiritual and against true wisdom because they entangled spirit with matter." Most Gnostics believe that whoever entered Jesus at his baptism left him before he died on the cross.
Gnosticism's present existence
This heretical view is still in existence today, both in various secretive cults and in such pop religious movements as astrology or alchemy.
The Masonic movement has been referred to as a Gnostic movement. The popular book The Da Vinci Code (2003, Doubleday) by Dan Brown promotes Gnostic ideas as it attempts to undermine orthodox Christianity.
References
Roger E. Olson, The Story of Christian Theology: Twenty Centuries of Tradition & Reform. (IVP, 1999) ISBN 0830815058
http://www.theopedia.com/Gnosticism
I understand what Gnosticism is. Charismatics practice a type of Gnosticism in their appeal to the Holy Spirit apart from scripture. God has given us scripture as the vehicle He has ordained to reveal His will to the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that illumines our mind, making it possible for us to understand the truth of scripture. The Holy Spirit never contravenes scripture.
The Word, who is with us, Immanuel and not confined to words.
Gnostic how? What Jesus did wasn't confined to or by words, John said so, John 21:25 (NIV) Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
Gnostic how? What Jesus did wasn't confined to or by words, John said so, John 21:25 (NIV) Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
The issue is not whether Christ did or said things that are not written down in Bible. Common sense dictates that He did. The issue is whether we are to appeal to the unknown. Are we to speculate about those things that God has not plainly revealed in His written revelation to man, the Bible? Are we somehow being cheated if we only have the Bible?
I am not "anti-Holy Spirit". There is no possible way for the Bible to be understood than by the illumining work of the Spirit in the mind of the reader. But the Spirit never subtracts from, adds to, or countermands God's written word. The Spirit confirms the Word of God.
How is what you have written Gnostic? You wrote:
qo2church said:
You are attempting to separate the Holy Spirit from the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that inspired the biblical writers to pen God's written revelation.
2 Peter 1:19-21 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation. for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
God, Himself revealed His word, the Decalogue, in written form.
Exodus 31:18 When He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God.
Moses wrote down the Law and commanded it to be placed along side the ark of the covenant.
Deuteronomy 31:24-26 It came about, when Moses finished writing the words of this law in a book until they were complete, that Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, "Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you."
Isaiah wrote about a believing remnant in Israel, and used the Law and the Decalogue as God's standard from the people.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.
If men appeal to the Holy Spirit, separate from the written Word of God, then there is no way of holding men accountable for anything they may claim the Spirit revealed to them. Isaiah understood this when he wrote in Isaiah 8:19, "When they say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God?" As I cited previously, Isaiah's answer was, "To the law and to the testimony!"
Gnosticism has many forms. At its core is the appeal to higher knowledge. In modern day Christianity it is found in the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements and among those who believe one must be enlightened at a higher level in order to know God. Charismatic and Pentecostals believe in the Holy Spirit manifesting Himself in a revelatory manner outside of scripture. Unless you have misspoken your words indicate that type of belief. Thus, the connection to a form of Gnosticism.
Lastly, where does Jesus condemn this supposed exaltation of scripture over the Holy Spirit?
Amen.
Allow me to summarize the opposing argument: "My first, surface reading of Scripture tells me this is not true. I am not interested in thoroughly exegeting the texts in light of their historical or grammatical context. So, going straight from my reading to application, women cannot be pastors."
It's pretty sad.
Not separating Holy Spirit from scripture. I said the Holy Spirit can call a woman to be a pastor, a good case (though you won't agree) can be made directly from scripture, no separation. This doesn't make me Gnostic nor does it make a woman who is or wants to be a pastor, a liar.
I'm not arguing the word isn't important or useful, just that it isn't more important or even on par with than any of the Trinity. Again I can be saved without a Bible, can't be saved without Jesus.
2 Corinthians 3:2-6 (NIV)
Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? [2] You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone. [3] You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. [4] Such confidence we have through Christ before God. [5] Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. [6] He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
In that case, this was what was needed.
If we only had that scripture, didn't know the full historical context, didn't have the example of Jesus including and elevating women or of other women leading, you could make the case of only men without issue. But those do exist so you have to decide what to do with them.
If we only had that scripture, didn't know the full historical context, didn't have the example of Jesus including and elevating women or of other women leading, you could make the case of only men without issue. But those do exist so you have to decide what to do with them.
Did Jesus make a woman one of his 12 disciples?