Women pastors you like

[Jerome]

Time Magazine March 21, 1927

Religion: Baptists

"Women and John D. Rockefeller Jr. caused contention at the annual meeting of the Baptist Bible Union of North America in Calvary Baptist Church, Manhattan, last week.

A Fundamentalist from the Kentucky Bible belt, one Dr. J. W. Gillon, quoted the Scriptures to prove that women should be ousted from the pulpits: Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak. ... (I CORINTHIANS 14:34) ... Suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man. ... (I TIMOTHY 2:12.)

One who believes that every word of the Bible must be taken literally is Rev. John Roach Straton, loud-speaking Manhattan Fundamentalist. He leaped to his feet, shouted: "You have a great deal to learn. One of the greatest preachers I ever heard is a 14-year-old girl [Uldine Utley, TIME, Feb. 28]. In fact, I think she is the greatest preacher in the country at this time. . . . We haven't yet opened our eyes to the writings of the New Testament in regard to women preaching."

The feminist problem was dropped when Rev. T. T. Shields of Toronto, Canada, President of the Bible Union, launched into an attack on John D. Rockefeller Jr. . . ."

 

[Crabtownboy]

Time Magazine March 21, 1927

Religion: Baptists

"Women and John D. Rockefeller Jr. caused contention at the annual meeting of the Baptist Bible Union of North America in Calvary Baptist Church, Manhattan, last week.

A Fundamentalist from the Kentucky Bible belt, one Dr. J. W. Gillon, quoted the Scriptures to prove that women should be ousted from the pulpits: Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak. ... (I CORINTHIANS 14:34) ... Suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man. ... (I TIMOTHY 2:12.)

One who believes that every word of the Bible must be taken literally is Rev. John Roach Straton, loud-speaking Manhattan Fundamentalist. He leaped to his feet, shouted: "You have a great deal to learn. One of the greatest preachers I ever heard is a 14-year-old girl [Uldine Utley, TIME, Feb. 28]. In fact, I think she is the greatest preacher in the country at this time. . . . We haven't yet opened our eyes to the writings of the New Testament in regard to women preaching."

The feminist problem was dropped when Rev. T. T. Shields of Toronto, Canada, President of the Bible Union, launched into an attack on John D. Rockefeller Jr. . . ."

Here is the link to the article in Time, February 28th, 1927 about Uldine Utley.

http://timeinc8-sd11.websys.aol.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,730085,00.html

 

[annsni]

Why is it that women called to the ministry can only be pastors? I'm called to the ministry and minister I do. I hold a class for new moms that runs through their first year or two with a baby so that they can have support, teaching and fellowship with other moms in their same place. I'm following Titus 2 in that regard. I also, along with my husband ran our college ministry for years and worked with our youth. The two of us do premarital counseling and I do some counseling on my own. I run our homeschool group and will be planting a church with my husband sometime in the next year making me go from one of 9 pastor's wives to the primary pastor's wife. I know that will bring an entirely new opportunity for my ministry to grow. But I have not ever nor ever will be a pastor. Scripture doesn't support it but I support Scripture.

 

[Jerome]

Yes, a man can be called "education pastor", but a woman must be the "education director". A man can be "pastor of youth ministries", but a woman must be "youth ministry director". Hilarious.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Why is it that women called to the ministry can only be pastors? I'm called to the ministry and minister I do. I hold a class for new moms that runs through their first year or two with a baby so that they can have support, teaching and fellowship with other moms in their same place. I'm following Titus 2 in that regard. I also, along with my husband ran our college ministry for years and worked with our youth. The two of us do premarital counseling and I do some counseling on my own. I run our homeschool group and will be planting a church with my husband sometime in the next year making me go from one of 9 pastor's wives to the primary pastor's wife. I know that will bring an entirely new opportunity for my ministry to grow. But I have not ever nor ever will be a pastor. Scripture doesn't support it but I support Scripture.

Annsni, in my mind when you are doing all those good things you are pastoring as well as ministering. I am not arguing with your nor picking an argument ... but those are wonderful pastoring things to do.

One definition of pastoring is, " a person having spiritual care of a number of persons." [from dictionary.com] Surely you are caring for them spiritually, perhaps not with a formal title, but in a most appropriate way.

 

[annsni]

Yes, a man can be called "education pastor", but a woman must be the "education director". A man can be "pastor of youth ministries", but a woman must be "youth ministry director". Hilarious.

A pastor is a Biblical role that is assigned to men ("elders" or "bishops" as the case may be). I've seen men education directors and youth ministry directors so it's not that men are labeled "pastor" and women are not for the same job.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I am not going to argue with you. However experience will never back down to argument.

I have found these ministers superior to almost any male minister I have known. Frankly, I believe that is one reason so many men are against women in ministry, they fear they cannot measure up. That is most gently said.

What is the major difference that I have noticed between men and women ministers. Many male ministers have a superiority complex. Humility has not been found, in my experience, among most male ministers. I have not found these traits among women ministers that I have known.

The Bible is God's word, and the last words it has on the last chapter of the last book is "Amen, even so. Come Lord Jesus". That can be translated, end of story.

Many books before that God said that women are not to preach or speak in church.

You are changing God's word.

This is not about humility.

This is about rebellion, yours.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Yes, a man can be called "education pastor", but a woman must be the "education director". A man can be "pastor of youth ministries", but a woman must be "youth ministry director". Hilarious.

That's another thing. I recently attended a meeting at another church, a very large church, and it seems like everybody there was the "pastor" of their department.

"Music Pastor", "Youth Pastor", "Education Pastor", "Making Up Silly Applications For the Title of Pastor Pastor", etc.

Where is this in scripture? Clearly, the Biblical model is that the church has a pastor, individual departments and ministries do not.

 

[Amy.G]

Annsni, in my mind when you are doing all those good things you are pastoring as well as ministering. I am not arguing with your nor picking an argument ... but those are wonderful pastoring things to do.

One definition of pastoring is, " a person having spiritual care of a number of persons." [from dictionary.com] Surely you are caring for them spiritually, perhaps not with a formal title, but in a most appropriate way.

The biblical office of pastor is to be the shepherd of the church, not just in one particular ministry. He is responsible for the doctrine that is taught churchwide. His job is to study the scriptures and preach God's word and to make sure no false doctrines creep into the church. What Ann does is wonderful and very much needed, but it is not pastoring.

 

[Crabtownboy]

The biblical office of pastor is to be the shepherd of the church, not just in one particular ministry. He is responsible for the doctrine that is taught churchwide. His job is to study the scriptures and preach God's word and to make sure no false doctrines creep into the church. What Ann does is wonderful and very much needed, but it is not pastoring.

Amy, where did you get the definition. I've checked a number of Bible and theological dictionaries and have not found such a definition. I am curious.

To me a rose by any other name is a rose.

 

[ShotGunWillie]

I hope you are not serious! Joyce Meyer is Word of Faith.

Well, it was either her or Joel Osteen, I decided not to be that tacky

 

[Timsings]

How do we use God's own Word to limit Him? Does He not speak His heart? Is not the Scriptures God's own word to us? Scripture is clear, it is God who limits the church - not the other way around.

I have read the other posts that been added since I made my comment. So, I am responding those comments as well. I will give you the most appropriate example I know. On the basis of scripture (among other things), the Pharisees claimed that Jesus was not, and could not be, God's Messiah. They had decided, again, on the basis of scripture, what God's Messiah would be like, and they would accept no other possibilities. Jesus did not fit their expectations, so he could not be the Messiah.

When we assume that God's revelation has ended with that recorded in scripture, then we are assuming a level of knowledge to which we are not entitled. That is how we can attempt to limit God. What we are actually doing is preventing others from experiencing God to the fullest. It is not a question of God speaking God's heart to us. It is a question of whether we are paying attention. It is not a question of whether the scriptures are God's word. It's a question of whether they are God's only word or God's final word to us. When we run to the scriptures for answers to every problem we encounter, we run the risk of avoiding dealing with the problem directly. We may be applying a solution that may not be appropriate. Jesus was accused of breaking many sabbath and dietary laws. According to the Pharisees, he was a sinner, but we don't see it that way. I see this as being analogous to the issue of women pastors.

When my church was looking for a new pastor a couple of years ago, we considered several women candidates. Also, Molly Marshall was one of the supply preachers. We had some other women also. Ms. Marshall was very impressive as Crabtownboy has already mentioned. The others were a mixed bag, some good, some not so good. One was particularly bad. At least I guess she was. I couldn't understand a word she said. Our search committee, of which my daughter was a member, settled on a man who had more experience. He has been the right person to be our pastor.

Tim Reynolds

 

[matt wade]

When we run to the scriptures for answers to every problem we encounter, we run the risk of avoiding dealing with the problem directly.

Yeah...we wouldn't want to actually seek out answers in God's Word. Instead, we can come up with answers based upon our feelings, culture, and what makes us and others feel good.

 

[annsni]

I have read the other posts that been added since I made my comment. So, I am responding those comments as well. I will give you the most appropriate example I know. On the basis of scripture (among other things), the Pharisees claimed that Jesus was not, and could not be, God's Messiah. They had decided, again, on the basis of scripture, what God's Messiah would be like, and they would accept no other possibilities. Jesus did not fit their expectations, so he could not be the Messiah.

When we assume that God's revelation has ended with that recorded in scripture, then we are assuming a level of knowledge to which we are not entitled. That is how we can attempt to limit God. What we are actually doing is preventing others from experiencing God to the fullest. It is not a question of God speaking God's heart to us. It is a question of whether we are paying attention. It is not a question of whether the scriptures are God's word. It's a question of whether they are God's only word or God's final word to us. When we run to the scriptures for answers to every problem we encounter, we run the risk of avoiding dealing with the problem directly. We may be applying a solution that may not be appropriate. Jesus was accused of breaking many sabbath and dietary laws. According to the Pharisees, he was a sinner, but we don't see it that way. I see this as being analogous to the issue of women pastors.

When my church was looking for a new pastor a couple of years ago, we considered several women candidates. Also, Molly Marshall was one of the supply preachers. We had some other women also. Ms. Marshall was very impressive as Crabtownboy has already mentioned. The others were a mixed bag, some good, some not so good. One was particularly bad. At least I guess she was. I couldn't understand a word she said. Our search committee, of which my daughter was a member, settled on a man who had more experience. He has been the right person to be our pastor.

Tim Reynolds

So, in other words, we can ignore clear teaching of Scripture if we feel that God has given us a "new revelation"? Wow. I find the bolded above so dangerous and so scary for a Christian to be thinking. This is the thinking of cults - is it now creeping into the church?

 

[Revmitchell]

I have read the other posts that been added since I made my comment. So, I am responding those comments as well. I will give you the most appropriate example I know. On the basis of scripture (among other things), the Pharisees claimed that Jesus was not, and could not be, God's Messiah. They had decided, again, on the basis of scripture, what God's Messiah would be like, and they would accept no other possibilities. Jesus did not fit their expectations, so he could not be the Messiah.

When we assume that God's revelation has ended with that recorded in scripture, then we are assuming a level of knowledge to which we are not entitled. That is how we can attempt to limit God. What we are actually doing is preventing others from experiencing God to the fullest. It is not a question of God speaking God's heart to us. It is a question of whether we are paying attention. It is not a question of whether the scriptures are God's word. It's a question of whether they are God's only word or God's final word to us. When we run to the scriptures for answers to every problem we encounter, we run the risk of avoiding dealing with the problem directly. We may be applying a solution that may not be appropriate. Jesus was accused of breaking many sabbath and dietary laws. According to the Pharisees, he was a sinner, but we don't see it that way. I see this as being analogous to the issue of women pastors.

When my church was looking for a new pastor a couple of years ago, we considered several women candidates. Also, Molly Marshall was one of the supply preachers. We had some other women also. Ms. Marshall was very impressive as Crabtownboy has already mentioned. The others were a mixed bag, some good, some not so good. One was particularly bad. At least I guess she was. I couldn't understand a word she said. Our search committee, of which my daughter was a member, settled on a man who had more experience. He has been the right person to be our pastor.

Tim Reynolds

When we spend to much time outside of scripture this is the completely ignorant ideology we get. It is clear you do not understand the conflict between Jesus and the Pharisees nor do you understand scripture.

Scripture is completely sufficient for all matters of faith and practice and daily living. Anything else is heresy

 

[Timsings]

So, in other words, we can ignore clear teaching of Scripture if we feel that God has given us a "new revelation"? Wow. I find the bolded above so dangerous and so scary for a Christian to be thinking. This is the thinking of cults - is it now creeping into the church?

I agree that it is scary and dangerous, and it should be. The Pharisees thought they had "clear teaching from scripture" about Jesus. They are the prototype for what we shouldn't be doing. Their example should lead us right back to Gamaliel's warning to the Sanhedrin and to the comment "by their fruits shall ye know them." I guess my point is that being baptist is not easy. You can't settle for easy answers, and you can't jump to easy conclusions. You have to trust in the leading of the Holy Spirit, but you can't assume that it is going to be easily apparent. There is a sense that God's appearing to Abram was new revelation. The same could be said for Moses and the burning bush and the whole story of the exodus. Remember that many of the Israelites wished that they had stayed in Egypt in spite of all the plagues and acts of power that God did to show them that they would be taken care of. Also, it is likely that Jesus and his followers were viewed as something like a cult by many in the Jewish religious establishment. So it is with women pastors just as with men. Some will be very good, and it will be hard to doubt their calling. Some will be very bad, and it will be hard to affirm their calling. Most will be somewhere in the middle. For all it will between them and God whether or not they carry out their calling.

Tim Reynolds

 

[Timsings]

When we spend to much time outside of scripture this is the completely ignorant ideology we get. It is clear you do not understand the conflict between Jesus and the Pharisees nor do you understand scripture.

Scripture is completely sufficient for all matters of faith and practice and daily living. Anything else is heresy

Thanks, Rev. It is a not totally unexpected honor to have you assign me to the heretic bench. :BangHead: To paraphrase one of your earlier posts to me, you have no idea how much time I spend inside or outside of scripture. Also, I see more ideology in your posts and those of your admirers. And, as for my being "completely ignorant", I refer you to the passage from Proverbs in my signature. It's possible that we may have found something that we agree on. If that is the case, then the BB may be about to implode.

Tim Reynolds

 

[Crabtownboy]

So, in other words, we can ignore clear teaching of Scripture if we feel that God has given us a "new revelation"? Wow. I find the bolded above so dangerous and so scary for a Christian to be thinking. This is the thinking of cults - is it now creeping into the church?

I am not sure what is meant by new revelation. I do know that many preachers, especially southern preachers, defended salvery using scripture. Paul did not condemn it. So, I am wondering, was it a new revelation when pastors and others began denouncing slavery and favoring it abolishment? Just curious where something like this fits into this thread.

 

[Baptist4life]

.................. I do know that many preachers, especially southern preachers, defended salvery using scripture.........

I like SALVE myself, works really good on cuts and things! :tongue3:

 

[Timsings]

I like SALVE myself, works really good on cuts and things! :tongue3:

Sometimes I have to use it after I've spent too much time on the BB.

Tim Reynolds