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Women Pastors
- Thread starter Claudia_T
- Start date
artjaggard
New Member
Hello Gershom,
You stopped too soon. Keep reading to verse 11. "Women likewise"
Art Jaggard
You stopped too soon. Keep reading to verse 11. "Women likewise"
Art Jaggard
artjaggard
New Member
Claudia writes:
An easy book to read on the subject is Women in Ministry, I commend to you my Sister You can order it in any book store or from Amazon etc.
You should also know that I am the author.
Art Jaggard
[ May 06, 2006, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: artjaggard ]
Actually what says (and only in I Tim 2:12)is:
A lot of translations say, "I do not allow a woman to ..." Which is certainly permissable with the verb structure. In any case this is the Biblical record of a particular church and Paul's leadership in it. It is not given as a command, it is merely descriptive. Though not completely congruent, it is like observing that Judas hung himself and extrapolating a rule of the church from that behavior.
An easy book to read on the subject is Women in Ministry, I commend to you my Sister You can order it in any book store or from Amazon etc.
Art Jaggard
[ May 06, 2006, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: artjaggard ]
artjaggard
New Member
Hello Gershom,
God bless you. And you are right in observing that many interpret v 11 in that manner. However the context is an extension of attributes that parallels those given to male deacons. This leads some (self included) to think that the list applies to women deacons, not to deacon's wives. Given the clear fact that Paul recognized Phoebe as a deacon, (Rom 12) it seems reasonable for him to give direction to other women who were deacons as well.
What you say (and say well) illustrates that people who believe the Word can actually project two different contexts onto the Scripture. At some level the way we do that says as much about our own predispostitions as it does about what God has actually said.
I am not suggesting that there are vast areas of Biblical uncertainty. There are not. But there are some places where what we think colors how we read. Women in Ministry is one of those areas.
By the way I do not believe that men and women are the same (egalitarian). I do however believe that the ministries of both men and women should be recognized and supported.
Art Jaggard
God bless you. And you are right in observing that many interpret v 11 in that manner. However the context is an extension of attributes that parallels those given to male deacons. This leads some (self included) to think that the list applies to women deacons, not to deacon's wives. Given the clear fact that Paul recognized Phoebe as a deacon, (Rom 12) it seems reasonable for him to give direction to other women who were deacons as well.
What you say (and say well) illustrates that people who believe the Word can actually project two different contexts onto the Scripture. At some level the way we do that says as much about our own predispostitions as it does about what God has actually said.
I am not suggesting that there are vast areas of Biblical uncertainty. There are not. But there are some places where what we think colors how we read. Women in Ministry is one of those areas.
By the way I do not believe that men and women are the same (egalitarian). I do however believe that the ministries of both men and women should be recognized and supported.
Art Jaggard
I love how people claim that the motivation against women as pastor's is because of prejudice.
But the fact remains the Greek properly translated precludes the inclusion of women in the Timothy passage as far as the pastoral office is concerned. I have great respect for FF Bruce (don't know the others) but the fact remains their wrong.
God has frequently used the image of bride and groom in his relations with His people and this image is continued in the relation between pastor and congregation hence the recalling of the disruption of the original image of God perpetrated by Adam and Eve. Having a woman in the place of the groom just sort a kinda ruins that image.
But the fact remains the Greek properly translated precludes the inclusion of women in the Timothy passage as far as the pastoral office is concerned. I have great respect for FF Bruce (don't know the others) but the fact remains their wrong.
God has frequently used the image of bride and groom in his relations with His people and this image is continued in the relation between pastor and congregation hence the recalling of the disruption of the original image of God perpetrated by Adam and Eve. Having a woman in the place of the groom just sort a kinda ruins that image.
Actually what says (and only in I Tim 2:12)is:
A lot of translations say, "I do not allow a woman to ..." Which is certainly permissable with the verb structure. In any case this is the Biblical record of a particular church and Paul's leadership in it. It is not given as a command, it is merely descriptive. Though not completely congruent, it is like observing that Judas hung himself and extrapolating a rule of the church from that behavior.
An easy book to read on the subject is Women in Ministry, I commend to you my Sister You can order it in any book store or from Amazon etc.
Art Jaggard </font>[/QUOTE]Art,
now that doesnt really make sense it being merely descriptive that he doesnt currently allow women to teach, you know why??
Because he said its because adam was formed first and because eve was the one decieved by the serpent.
So it couldnt hardly be like "well today since God created men first and women were the ones deceived... I have decided not to allow women to teach"... and what about tomorrow? would those two principles cease to exst about Adam and Eve?
Claudia
So, in essence the Bible is incorrect when it lists Phoebe as a deaconess. The Bible is not infallible afterall. Sorry, I must give accont for the fact that Phoebe was a deacon (ess).
F.F. Bruce, a Plymouth Brethren, and every reason not to accept female deacons, was a master of the Greek language. Whilst I did have four years of Greek studies, I will take his word over my own studies.
Cheers,
Jim
F.F. Bruce, a Plymouth Brethren, and every reason not to accept female deacons, was a master of the Greek language. Whilst I did have four years of Greek studies, I will take his word over my own studies.
Cheers,
Jim
artjaggard
New Member
Folks, I'm on the road and won't be able to reply pretty soon. I apologize for jumping in without the ability to stay.
Still, to Claudia,
There are all kinds of women in ministry throughout the Bible. The only disciple who gets more reference than Mary Magdalene was Peter. My sense is that you are referring to the office of the pastor when you ask the question. And here the honest Biblical answer is pretty much no. Priscilla maybe, but she is mentioned with her husband Aquilla. And you might count June in Romans but outside of that mention we have no evidence that she actually pastored a church. Historically in the early church there is non Biblical evidence of women holding that sort of position. For instance there was Theadora who actually rose to the office of Bishop in 450 ad.
To Chemnits,
I'm not making any accusations,. I just think that it is an observable fact that what we already think colors what we (self included) read into the Scripture. That we differ does not mean that we treat each other with disrespect, (as you demonstrate with FF Bruce)
You write the words "in the Timothy passage as far as the pastoral office is concerned." That part of your sentance helps show an interpretation. Very striclty speaking the office of pastor does not show up in this passage at all. Ephesians 4 perhaps, but not I Timothy. The word is Poimen in Greek and shows up most often in the gospels literaly as shepherd.
Art Jaggard
Still, to Claudia,
There are all kinds of women in ministry throughout the Bible. The only disciple who gets more reference than Mary Magdalene was Peter. My sense is that you are referring to the office of the pastor when you ask the question. And here the honest Biblical answer is pretty much no. Priscilla maybe, but she is mentioned with her husband Aquilla. And you might count June in Romans but outside of that mention we have no evidence that she actually pastored a church. Historically in the early church there is non Biblical evidence of women holding that sort of position. For instance there was Theadora who actually rose to the office of Bishop in 450 ad.
To Chemnits,
I'm not making any accusations,. I just think that it is an observable fact that what we already think colors what we (self included) read into the Scripture. That we differ does not mean that we treat each other with disrespect, (as you demonstrate with FF Bruce)
You write the words "in the Timothy passage as far as the pastoral office is concerned." That part of your sentance helps show an interpretation. Very striclty speaking the office of pastor does not show up in this passage at all. Ephesians 4 perhaps, but not I Timothy. The word is Poimen in Greek and shows up most often in the gospels literaly as shepherd.
Art Jaggard
But what is a deaconess? That remains the question as the only place where it can be legitimately reasoned as deaconess is Rms 16:1. guniaka is rendered to frequently as wife to make for a definitive translation merely as woman, particularly at a time when a woman was by definition a married woman.
Phoebe is the reason why the LCMS has the office of Deaconess which is filled by women who are theological trained and trained in various ministerial practices, usually in assisting Pastors with pastoral care.
Sorry Claudia knee jerk reaction, I have been accused of prejudice frequently because of my stance.
Phoebe is the reason why the LCMS has the office of Deaconess which is filled by women who are theological trained and trained in various ministerial practices, usually in assisting Pastors with pastoral care.
Sorry Claudia knee jerk reaction, I have been accused of prejudice frequently because of my stance.
artjaggard
New Member
Hi Claudia,
You write:
As far as women being disqualified by some from preaching because Eve was deceived in the Garden. This is based largely on I Tim 2:13-14:Quote:
For Adam was created first, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression.
II Cor. 11:3 also attributes the fall to Eve.
On the other hand Rom 5:12-19, I Cor. 15:21-45, Job 31:33, Isaiah 43:27 and Hosea 6:7 give explicit responsibility to Adam for the fall.
So are women or men to be disqualified from preaching? Just weighing the number of verses assigning the fall to one gender or another completely misses the point of Scripture. Both men and women are unfit to handle the Word. Only through the Holy Spirit may Jesus be proclaimed as Lord. It is only by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ that any may prophesy, and in that He is no respecter of persons (or gender).
Art Jaggard
I really got to run, see you next week.
You write:
Actually in a very hard, literal sense, Paul tells what he is doing and then gives his rational for why he is doing it. In the most literal sense we still only have description, not prescription. That is, strictly speaking, we know what Paul was doing but we have no command to do likewise.
As far as women being disqualified by some from preaching because Eve was deceived in the Garden. This is based largely on I Tim 2:13-14:Quote:
For Adam was created first, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression.
II Cor. 11:3 also attributes the fall to Eve.
On the other hand Rom 5:12-19, I Cor. 15:21-45, Job 31:33, Isaiah 43:27 and Hosea 6:7 give explicit responsibility to Adam for the fall.
So are women or men to be disqualified from preaching? Just weighing the number of verses assigning the fall to one gender or another completely misses the point of Scripture. Both men and women are unfit to handle the Word. Only through the Holy Spirit may Jesus be proclaimed as Lord. It is only by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ that any may prophesy, and in that He is no respecter of persons (or gender).
Art Jaggard
I really got to run, see you next week.
First of all let me say that I could go either way with this... I am not sure if there should be women pastors or not. But I lean towards that at least women ought to be able to write religious articles and books... even though that would be "teaching".
But, let me try it from another angle.
Besides the fact that the bible says Eve was the one decieved by the serpent and Adam was formed first... what about the fact that the Bible says wives should submit to their husbands?
Well why is that? I mean, why not the other way around? If God puts no difference between men and women then why even say that at all?
Eph:5:22: Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Col:3:18: Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
But also the bible says we should in one sense all be subject to one another...
1Pt:5:5: Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
I dont know but it just seems to me that God does put a difference between men and women.
Ephesians 5:
23: For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24: Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
1Pt:3:6: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
Claudia
But, let me try it from another angle.
Besides the fact that the bible says Eve was the one decieved by the serpent and Adam was formed first... what about the fact that the Bible says wives should submit to their husbands?
Well why is that? I mean, why not the other way around? If God puts no difference between men and women then why even say that at all?
Eph:5:22: Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Col:3:18: Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
But also the bible says we should in one sense all be subject to one another...
1Pt:5:5: Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
I dont know but it just seems to me that God does put a difference between men and women.
Ephesians 5:
23: For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24: Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
1Pt:3:6: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
Claudia
This is something Samuele Bacchiocchi said in regards to a meeting our church leaders were having about the subject of women's ordination... he write a whole lot of interesting stuff about it.. but here is just a little of it:
To turn next to the moral implications, Women in Ministry's assumption that male headship and female submission reflect "God's plan for fallen human beings rather than an original mandate for the sinless world" implies that functional role distinctions are intrinsically evil. But we must ask, Is this true? The answer is, Absolutely not! The most compelling proof is the fact that functional role distinctions exist within the Trinity itself! The Bible tells us that "the head of Christ is God" (1 Cor 11:3) and that the Son Himself "will be subjected to him [the Father]" for all eternity (1 Cor 14:28). If there is nothing morally wrong with functional distinctions within the Trinity, why is it morally wrong for functional distinctions to exist within male-female relationships?
This leads us to another observation, examining the assumption that male headship entails superiority and female submission inferiority--a subtle and deceptive assumption that underlies the whole symposium. We ask, do functional male-female role distinctions imply superiority and inferiority? Absolutely not! This is true in the Trinity and is also true in male-female relationships. In the Trinity the headship of the Father does not make the Son inferior. Christ Himself affirmed, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). In human relationships, male headship does not make women inferior because of their submissive roles. We "are all one in Christ," and consequently there is no male superiority or female inferiority (Gal 3:28-29).
Genesis 1: Male and Female
1. Equal, Yet Different Before the Fall
Genesis 1:26-31 contains three key statements: (1) God created mankind in His own image and likeness; (2) God created mankind as male and female; (3) God gave mankind dominion over all the living things with power to increase and multiply, that is, to become a race. These three statements embody two vital concepts, equality in being and differentiation in gender.
Equal Yet Different
Equality is suggested by the fact that both man and woman were created in the image of God. Genesis 1:26-27 says, "Then God said: `Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea . . . .' So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." "Man" is mentioned twice here and refers inclusively to man and woman. This is indicated first by the Hebrew word for "man" ('adam) which can be translated as "mankind, humanity": "Let us make mankind in our own image." The second indication is the plural "them," which points to "man" as being a plurality consisting of both man and woman. The fact that Genesis 1:26-27 moves back and forth three times between the singular "man" and the plural "them" clearly indicates that the term "man" is used collectively to refer to both man and woman.
Genesis 1:27 corroborates this conclusion. The statement, "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him," is clarified by the following statement, "male and female he created them." From these data, our Women in Ministry chapter argues that "the equal pairing of male and female in parallel with ha'adam [man] in this verse [shows that] there is no hint of ontological or functional superiority-inferiority or headship-submission between male and female. . . . Both participate equally in the image of God."6
The conclusion that the "pairing of male and female in parallel with ha'adam [man]" excludes any hint of a headship-submission distinction between male and female ignores two important considerations. First, equality must not obscure the sexual differentiation which is made unavoidably clear in this passage: "male and female he created them" (Gen 1:27). The two sexes are part of God's original purpose for the human race and both are good. Both men and women are essential to the proper functioning of the human race. Denying or perverting sexual differentiation is a rejection of the order established at creation and is condemned in the Bible as "abomination" (Deut 22:5; Rom 1:26-27).
Genesis 1 does not say much about the roles of men and women. It simply affirms that man and woman are equally created in the image of God but are sexually different. The implications of the gender distinctions are explained subsequently in the Bible, beginning with Genesis 2.
The second important consideration is the fact God designated both the male and the female as "man--ha'adam." We see this again in Genesis 5:2, where the word man denotes both male and female: "He created them male and female; at the time they were created, he blessed them and called them `man.'"
Paul's Use of Genesis 1:26-27
Supporting the above conclusion is Paul's use of the terms "image" and "glory" in 1 Corinthians 11:7 in his discussion of the manner in which men and women ought to participate in public worship.
Paul alludes to Genesis 1:26-27 when he writes, "For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man" (1 Cor 11:7). Paul is not implying that a woman reflects the image of God to a lesser degree than does man. The focus of his discussion is not the personal dignity or worth of men and women implied in Genesis 1:26-28, but rather the headship of man in marriage and worship implied in Genesis 2:18-23. Paul refers specifically to the man's headship in 1 Corinthians 11:8-9. It is in this context that man images God and that woman does not. It is obvious that women bear God's image in other senses, as Paul himself recognizes in Ephesians 4:24, where he speaks of all believers as being renewed according to God's image in terms of "righteousness and holiness" (cf. Col 3:10).
Paul is careful in 1 Corinthians 11:7 not to say that the woman is man's image. Rather he says that "woman is the glory of man." The language of Genesis 1:26-27 in the Septuagint is "image" (eikon) and "likeness" (homoioma) and not image and glory (doxa). Thus Paul's use of the term "glory" is significant. To understand its meaning we must note that Paul uses "glory" in the context of the relation of man to God and of woman to man. Man images God and gives Him glory by being submissive to Him and by being a loving, self-sacrificing head (Eph 5:25-29). The wife is the glory of her husband in the way she honors his headship by her life and attitude. This meaning is well expressed in the Septuagint version of Proverbs 11:16, which says, "A gracious wife brings glory to her husband" (cf. Prov 12:4).
What is significant about Paul's use of "image" and "glory" is the fact that he interprets Genesis 1:26-27 in the light of Genesis 2 to explain why the woman is the glory of man, namely, because she was created from and for man and not vice versa (1 Cor 11:8-9). All of this shows that Paul understood the image of God in man and woman mentioned in Genesis 1:26-27, not in the light of the egalitarian model but in terms of the functional distinctions mentioned in Genesis 2:20-22.
In light of these considerations we conclude that Genesis 1:26-27 does affirm male-female equality, but that it also alludes to male headship by twice calling the human race, "man--ha'adam" rather than "woman." Furthermore, by differentiating between man as "the image and glory of God" and woman as the "glory of man," Paul shows that the equality between men and women implied by Genesis 1:26-27 does not negate their functional distinction implied in Genesis 2:18-23.
To turn next to the moral implications, Women in Ministry's assumption that male headship and female submission reflect "God's plan for fallen human beings rather than an original mandate for the sinless world" implies that functional role distinctions are intrinsically evil. But we must ask, Is this true? The answer is, Absolutely not! The most compelling proof is the fact that functional role distinctions exist within the Trinity itself! The Bible tells us that "the head of Christ is God" (1 Cor 11:3) and that the Son Himself "will be subjected to him [the Father]" for all eternity (1 Cor 14:28). If there is nothing morally wrong with functional distinctions within the Trinity, why is it morally wrong for functional distinctions to exist within male-female relationships?
This leads us to another observation, examining the assumption that male headship entails superiority and female submission inferiority--a subtle and deceptive assumption that underlies the whole symposium. We ask, do functional male-female role distinctions imply superiority and inferiority? Absolutely not! This is true in the Trinity and is also true in male-female relationships. In the Trinity the headship of the Father does not make the Son inferior. Christ Himself affirmed, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). In human relationships, male headship does not make women inferior because of their submissive roles. We "are all one in Christ," and consequently there is no male superiority or female inferiority (Gal 3:28-29).
Genesis 1: Male and Female
1. Equal, Yet Different Before the Fall
Genesis 1:26-31 contains three key statements: (1) God created mankind in His own image and likeness; (2) God created mankind as male and female; (3) God gave mankind dominion over all the living things with power to increase and multiply, that is, to become a race. These three statements embody two vital concepts, equality in being and differentiation in gender.
Equal Yet Different
Equality is suggested by the fact that both man and woman were created in the image of God. Genesis 1:26-27 says, "Then God said: `Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea . . . .' So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." "Man" is mentioned twice here and refers inclusively to man and woman. This is indicated first by the Hebrew word for "man" ('adam) which can be translated as "mankind, humanity": "Let us make mankind in our own image." The second indication is the plural "them," which points to "man" as being a plurality consisting of both man and woman. The fact that Genesis 1:26-27 moves back and forth three times between the singular "man" and the plural "them" clearly indicates that the term "man" is used collectively to refer to both man and woman.
Genesis 1:27 corroborates this conclusion. The statement, "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him," is clarified by the following statement, "male and female he created them." From these data, our Women in Ministry chapter argues that "the equal pairing of male and female in parallel with ha'adam [man] in this verse [shows that] there is no hint of ontological or functional superiority-inferiority or headship-submission between male and female. . . . Both participate equally in the image of God."6
The conclusion that the "pairing of male and female in parallel with ha'adam [man]" excludes any hint of a headship-submission distinction between male and female ignores two important considerations. First, equality must not obscure the sexual differentiation which is made unavoidably clear in this passage: "male and female he created them" (Gen 1:27). The two sexes are part of God's original purpose for the human race and both are good. Both men and women are essential to the proper functioning of the human race. Denying or perverting sexual differentiation is a rejection of the order established at creation and is condemned in the Bible as "abomination" (Deut 22:5; Rom 1:26-27).
Genesis 1 does not say much about the roles of men and women. It simply affirms that man and woman are equally created in the image of God but are sexually different. The implications of the gender distinctions are explained subsequently in the Bible, beginning with Genesis 2.
The second important consideration is the fact God designated both the male and the female as "man--ha'adam." We see this again in Genesis 5:2, where the word man denotes both male and female: "He created them male and female; at the time they were created, he blessed them and called them `man.'"
Paul's Use of Genesis 1:26-27
Supporting the above conclusion is Paul's use of the terms "image" and "glory" in 1 Corinthians 11:7 in his discussion of the manner in which men and women ought to participate in public worship.
Paul alludes to Genesis 1:26-27 when he writes, "For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man" (1 Cor 11:7). Paul is not implying that a woman reflects the image of God to a lesser degree than does man. The focus of his discussion is not the personal dignity or worth of men and women implied in Genesis 1:26-28, but rather the headship of man in marriage and worship implied in Genesis 2:18-23. Paul refers specifically to the man's headship in 1 Corinthians 11:8-9. It is in this context that man images God and that woman does not. It is obvious that women bear God's image in other senses, as Paul himself recognizes in Ephesians 4:24, where he speaks of all believers as being renewed according to God's image in terms of "righteousness and holiness" (cf. Col 3:10).
Paul is careful in 1 Corinthians 11:7 not to say that the woman is man's image. Rather he says that "woman is the glory of man." The language of Genesis 1:26-27 in the Septuagint is "image" (eikon) and "likeness" (homoioma) and not image and glory (doxa). Thus Paul's use of the term "glory" is significant. To understand its meaning we must note that Paul uses "glory" in the context of the relation of man to God and of woman to man. Man images God and gives Him glory by being submissive to Him and by being a loving, self-sacrificing head (Eph 5:25-29). The wife is the glory of her husband in the way she honors his headship by her life and attitude. This meaning is well expressed in the Septuagint version of Proverbs 11:16, which says, "A gracious wife brings glory to her husband" (cf. Prov 12:4).
What is significant about Paul's use of "image" and "glory" is the fact that he interprets Genesis 1:26-27 in the light of Genesis 2 to explain why the woman is the glory of man, namely, because she was created from and for man and not vice versa (1 Cor 11:8-9). All of this shows that Paul understood the image of God in man and woman mentioned in Genesis 1:26-27, not in the light of the egalitarian model but in terms of the functional distinctions mentioned in Genesis 2:20-22.
In light of these considerations we conclude that Genesis 1:26-27 does affirm male-female equality, but that it also alludes to male headship by twice calling the human race, "man--ha'adam" rather than "woman." Furthermore, by differentiating between man as "the image and glory of God" and woman as the "glory of man," Paul shows that the equality between men and women implied by Genesis 1:26-27 does not negate their functional distinction implied in Genesis 2:18-23.
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
Sorry for my late arrival...
I'll mak eup for it with an incredibly boring and long post!
Note: In
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Two key phrases exist...
Learning in Subjection -and- usurping authority over a man.
As I see it...
In the Asian churches the new found freedom women were having in Christ was having a negative cultural effect... They were stepping up to the plate and 'demanding' equal place as in Christ there were niether male nor female...
This would end up dividing a fellowship...
Revelations may give a clue to some other more dire problems...
Revelations 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
She sure wasn't called of God! She took it upon herself... She usurped authority...
Yet we also know that there *were* decaonesses and prophetesses in the NT churches...
The church at Corinth appears to have been modelled after Synagouge Worship with men and women separated.
So, if the woman would shout a question to her husband during the message... Well, that could be quite disruptive.
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1 Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Now it appears Paul was appealing to the law to bring under control an out of control church... At least to me it does... From the overall tenor of Paul's writings I seriously doubt he was bringing this gentile church under the Law after finally getting them freed from it by the Jerusalem Councils' edict.
Anyway..
As there is a very limited number of Scriptures pertaining to a woman _not_ teaching in a church... (2 passages I believe)
None on women being Pastors or Bishops...
And, as far as I can find, so far, only two on being Prophetesses...
Luke 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
Acts 21:8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
Acts 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
-But, were they operating in the office of a Prophet or operating under the Gift of Prophecy...
My overwhelming impression is that a woman may not serve as 'Lead' or 'Senior' Pastor. I do not see the fact that 'in Christ there is niether Male nor Female' abrogating the divine chain of commad set up since Adam.
I am willing to allow a woman to serve 'under subjection'. But, she would have to be removed if she 'usurped authority over a man'...
Now, here's a potential problem... Having a gifted woman teaching an adult Sunday school class with men in attendance... How do you handle the case where a belligerent man with almost no Bible Knowledge challenges a woman teacher who has years in Christ and years in the Word?
I have sat under a woman teacher who was good enough in her understanding of God's Word to be listened to intently...
I have also had Women who co pastored with their husbands...
But, that is my opinion based on my limited knowledge of the Scriptures...
At least Eve had to be decieved... Adam didn't even question it!
I see two things about this positional authority...
God created Eve as the New Improved Model with deeper emotional response potential (on average) to her Creator...
To assauge man's ego... God put man in charge to make up for his new found inferiority! (Sorry couldn't resist!)
Either alone can not rule well either in secular things or in Christ... We need the emotional response and intuition our wives bring to the table. And, we also need the raw reasoning power of the average male. IMHO, A balanced individual has traits of both...
As far as the issue of whether Pheobe was a deaconess or not you may want to go through all the Scripture where Dikonos is used, using e-Swords KJC feature...
It is quite revealing in how broadly the term was used of just about anyone who served in any capacity in a church... Women included...
Mike Sr.
I'll mak eup for it with an incredibly boring and long post!
Teaching has the implication of Disciplinarian and Instructor...
Note: In
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Two key phrases exist...
Learning in Subjection -and- usurping authority over a man.
As I see it...
In the Asian churches the new found freedom women were having in Christ was having a negative cultural effect... They were stepping up to the plate and 'demanding' equal place as in Christ there were niether male nor female...
This would end up dividing a fellowship...
Revelations may give a clue to some other more dire problems...
Revelations 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
She sure wasn't called of God! She took it upon herself... She usurped authority...
Yet we also know that there *were* decaonesses and prophetesses in the NT churches...
The church at Corinth appears to have been modelled after Synagouge Worship with men and women separated.
So, if the woman would shout a question to her husband during the message... Well, that could be quite disruptive.
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1 Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Now it appears Paul was appealing to the law to bring under control an out of control church... At least to me it does... From the overall tenor of Paul's writings I seriously doubt he was bringing this gentile church under the Law after finally getting them freed from it by the Jerusalem Councils' edict.
Anyway..
As there is a very limited number of Scriptures pertaining to a woman _not_ teaching in a church... (2 passages I believe)
None on women being Pastors or Bishops...
And, as far as I can find, so far, only two on being Prophetesses...
Luke 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
Acts 21:8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
Acts 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
-But, were they operating in the office of a Prophet or operating under the Gift of Prophecy...
My overwhelming impression is that a woman may not serve as 'Lead' or 'Senior' Pastor. I do not see the fact that 'in Christ there is niether Male nor Female' abrogating the divine chain of commad set up since Adam.
I am willing to allow a woman to serve 'under subjection'. But, she would have to be removed if she 'usurped authority over a man'...
Now, here's a potential problem... Having a gifted woman teaching an adult Sunday school class with men in attendance... How do you handle the case where a belligerent man with almost no Bible Knowledge challenges a woman teacher who has years in Christ and years in the Word?
I have sat under a woman teacher who was good enough in her understanding of God's Word to be listened to intently...
I have also had Women who co pastored with their husbands...
But, that is my opinion based on my limited knowledge of the Scriptures...
I am not sure I accept that at face value...
At least Eve had to be decieved... Adam didn't even question it!
I see two things about this positional authority...
God created Eve as the New Improved Model with deeper emotional response potential (on average) to her Creator...
To assauge man's ego... God put man in charge to make up for his new found inferiority!
(Sorry couldn't resist!)Either alone can not rule well either in secular things or in Christ... We need the emotional response and intuition our wives bring to the table. And, we also need the raw reasoning power of the average male. IMHO, A balanced individual has traits of both...
As far as the issue of whether Pheobe was a deaconess or not you may want to go through all the Scripture where Dikonos is used, using e-Swords KJC feature...
It is quite revealing in how broadly the term was used of just about anyone who served in any capacity in a church... Women included...
Mike Sr.
Revelations 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
I think that means she was a false teacher, a false prophet.
But its nothing about whether or not a woman should be a prophet.
I think that means she was a false teacher, a false prophet.
But its nothing about whether or not a woman should be a prophet.
No problem. The answer is in the passage.
1 Timothy 2
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Wherever a Sunday School dilemma might defy this clear instruction, the solution would be to do away with Sunday School or find a suitable man to teach.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
The thing of women keeping silence in the church was Paul's preference, not God's standard (But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence). Else, anna would not have been allowed to speak at the temple.
Women cannot pastor a flock, that is evident by 1 Timothy 3. But they certainly can be used of God to speak anything God wants the congregation to hear.
God used women all throughout the Bible.
Women cannot pastor a flock, that is evident by 1 Timothy 3. But they certainly can be used of God to speak anything God wants the congregation to hear.
God used women all throughout the Bible.