Women Pastors?

[MrW]

John Calvin on whether Paul's take on this should be followed slavishly:

"the hours set apart for public prayer, sermon, and solemn services; during sermon, quiet and silence, fixed places, singing of hymns, days set apart for the celebration of the Lord’s Supper, the prohibition of Paul against women teaching in the Church, and such like....things of this nature are not necessary to salvation, and, for the edification of the Church, should be accommodated to the varying circumstances of each age and nation, it will be proper, as the interest of the Church may require, to change and abrogate the old, as well as to introduce new forms. I confess, indeed, that we are not to innovate rashly or incessantly, or for trivial causes. Charity is the best judge of what tends to hurt or to edify: if we allow her to be guide, all things will be safe....these are not fixed and perpetual obligations to which we are astricted....in those matters the custom and institutions of the country...declare what is to be done or avoided." —John Calvin, in his Institutes, IV.10.29-30

Once more, Calvin is wrong.

 

[Ben1445]

John Calvin on whether Paul's take on this should be followed slavishly:

"the hours set apart for public prayer, sermon, and solemn services; during sermon, quiet and silence, fixed places, singing of hymns, days set apart for the celebration of the Lord’s Supper, the prohibition of Paul against women teaching in the Church, and such like....things of this nature are not necessary to salvation, and, for the edification of the Church, should be accommodated to the varying circumstances of each age and nation, it will be proper, as the interest of the Church may require, to change and abrogate the old, as well as to introduce new forms. I confess, indeed, that we are not to innovate rashly or incessantly, or for trivial causes. Charity is the best judge of what tends to hurt or to edify: if we allow her to be guide, all things will be safe....these are not fixed and perpetual obligations to which we are astricted....in those matters the custom and institutions of the country...declare what is to be done or avoided." —John Calvin, in his Institutes, IV.10.29-30

And now we can all go to the Countess of Huntingdon’s Connexion with the blessing of John Calvin.

the custom and institutions of the country...declare what is to be done or avoided." -Calvin

That sounds an awful lot like “we ought to obey men rather than God” to me.

 

[Charlie24]

There’s been an ongoing discussion within the Southern Baptist Convention about the question of whether women should be permitted to serve as pastors in churches.

1 Timothy 2:12 (ESV)
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Most Baptists and conservative evangelicals understand this passage to mean that women are not allowed to take a position of authority over a man in the church. Others interpret it as meaning that a woman could serve as a pastor if male leadership granted her that authority.

Which view is correct, and why?

The Holy Spirit refers to the great apostle Paul as the master Church builder.

If Paul gives us no hint of a woman having the qualifications to be a pastor, who is the man who says a woman does have that qualification?

 

[Judith]

God's view is correct. A woman cannot be a pastor.

 

[easternstar]

Do all of you who oppose women pastors based on what you suppose Paul taught, do you require your women to wear a head covering in church?

 

[Mikoo]

Apostle just means someone sent. Old English apostol, via ecclesiastical Latin from Greek apostolos ‘messenger’, from apostellein ‘send forth’.

Today they seem to be church planters or missionaries. I know of no scripture declaring apostles will cease to exist after the first century.

The lady Julia was called an apostle in Romans 16:7.

The woman Phoebe was called a deacon (minister, servant) in Romans 16:1.

Deborah was called a judge (military leader) and prophetess in Judges 4 and 5.

Yet, when I see a woman pastor in a local church, or a female bishop (Lutheran ELCA) I cannot feel right about it. Technically, I don’t oppose it, but subjectively, it seems weird and wrong.

But as a side note: I also don’t see why a pastor is considered the main leader of a church, when the New Testament lists apostles, evangelists, prophets, pastors and teachers as given to the church. I see one man, the pastor, take charge of every function of a church, and only rarely does anyone else give the Sunday lecture or lead any other function (prayer meeting, Bible study, evangelism, etc.).

I'm pretty sure 'lady Julia' is not called an apostle in Romans 16:7.

 

[Ascetic X]

I'm pretty sure 'lady Julia' is not called an apostle in Romans 16:7.

I am not comfortable with female pastors or bishops, but technically, there apparently were women in leadership roles in the early church.

Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Junias,
Ἰουνίαν (Iounian)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular

Junia, in particular, has been a subject of debate regarding her gender, with early church tradition and many scholars affirming her as a female apostle. This highlights the role of women in the early church, which was more prominent than in many contemporary societies.

Andronicus and Junia were highly regarded within the apostolic community. The term "apostles" here may refer to a broader group beyond the original Twelve, indicating their significant role in spreading the gospel. Their recognition as "outstanding" highlights their leadership and influence in the early church, serving as examples of faith and dedication.

 

[Salty]

Do all of you who oppose women pastors based on what you suppose Paul taught, do you require your women to wear a head covering in church?

Depends on what you think that head covering is? A hat or her hair?

 

[easternstar]

Depends on what you think that head covering is? A hat or her hair?

For those who consider it her hair, do you require it to be long hair?

 

[Charlie24]

For those who consider it her hair, do you require it to be long hair?

Paul said that long hair to a woman is her glory, but to a man it's shame.

We all have our opinion on what is considered long.

If you remember during WW 2 the French women that played the whore with the German soldiers had their hair cut off to their shame.

Long hair is the same shame to a man as short hair is to a woman.

It's the creation model, the woman came from the man, not the man from the woman.

It suggests the authority of the man over the woman.

The long hair is a symbol of submission before the Lord in the order of authority, with the man taking that responsibility.

 

[easternstar]

Paul said that long hair to a woman is her glory, but to a man it's shame.

We all have our opinion on what is considered long.

If you remember during WW 2 the French women that played the whore with the German soldiers had their hair cut off to their shame.

Long hair is the same shame to a man as short hair is to a woman.

It's the creation model, the woman came from the man, not the man from the woman.

It suggests the authority of the man over the woman.

The long hair is a symbol of submission before the Lord in the order of authority, with the man taking that responsibility.

As you say, we all have our opinion on what is considered long, and I'll add that goes for a man or a woman.

To me, this is all legalistic. Like the question of adornment -- jewelry, etc.

If you restrict women from being pastors based on what you believe Paul taught, you'd better be consistent in other areas, too, like hair length, jewelry, etc.

 

[Charlie24]

As you say, we all have our opinion on what is considered long, and I'll add that goes for a man or a woman.

To me, this is all legalistic. Like the question of adornment -- jewelry, etc.

The Law of Moses never required a woman to wear head covering, that came from man.

I see the woman covering her head as an option, but the length of her hair not an option according to the creation model.

Fades come and go throughout time, but the length of hair on the man and woman has been determined by the Creator.

 

[Mikoo]

I am not comfortable with female pastors or bishops, but technically, there apparently were women in leadership roles in the early church.

Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Junias,
Ἰουνίαν (Iounian)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular

Junia, in particular, has been a subject of debate regarding her gender, with early church tradition and many scholars affirming her as a female apostle. This highlights the role of women in the early church, which was more prominent than in many contemporary societies.

Andronicus and Junia were highly regarded within the apostolic community. The term "apostles" here may refer to a broader group beyond the original Twelve, indicating their significant role in spreading the gospel. Their recognition as "outstanding" highlights their leadership and influence in the early church, serving as examples of faith and dedication.

I can can agree Junias was 'outstanding', 'well known' among the apostles or 'of note' among the apostles, but definitely not an apostle. I believe there were only 12 apostles (hand-picked by Christ). That is my take from Scripture.