Women Pastors?

:flower:

Karen, I do not teach doctrine and I have no authority over men. I am giving information on the New Age and the occult to educate believers so that they can be better equipped when they encounter it and be more confident in witnessing to those lost in these areas.

I do not teach the Bible as Bible teachers and pastors do. While I use scripture to support my points of why we should not consult an astrologer, for example, that is hardly teaching doctrine, and it is not expository preaching, leading and guiding a flock, or exerting authority.

So I teach in the sense of talking about the New Age and the occult, but I am not a Bible teacher.

I do not think the women making comments here are "teaching" men in the sense the Bible means it. When the Bible speaks of it, my understanding is that it means teaching doctrine and teaching with authority. The women here are giving views and their understanding of scripture in a discussion format. They have no authority over the men here and are not recognized teachers of doctrine.

I rest my case. :smilewinkgrin: :flower:

 

BTW, Karen, thanks for mentioning my book here! For those of you who don't know, I have a book that came out on Sept. 1st from Cook, SpellBound: The Paranormal Seduction of Today's Kids (in soft cover), which is about how the occult is marketed in our culture to children and teens, and step by step suggestions on talking to your kids about it, and answering their objections. The Foreword is by Norman Geisler. I started a thread on it the Books/Publications forum, which was the appropriate place for it, but will not lose opportunities to mention it here when I can! :smilewinkgrin:

Also, Karen, thanks for your gracious and thought provoking comments. It helps me to clarify my thinking on this topic.

As an afterthought to what you said, I think the crucial thing here is the meaning of "teaching." I think it involves teaching doctrine as in expository teaching and preaching, and having spriritual authority and oversight. I do not think women should be in this role in the church over adult men.

 

I agree!

:thumbs:

 

Since you brought up the Egalitarian, let me bring up the Complementarians! :smilewinkgrin: Here's a link to the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (kind of a long title):
http://www.cbmw.org/

Their site offers biblical support contra the Egalitarian view and refutes many of the Egalitarian views, imo.

Here's a list of 50 questions about the roles of men and women in the church with the answers:
http://www.cbmw.org/questions/

Here's an excellent article by Ron Rhodes on the role of women in the church. He takes on many of the pro woman pastor arguments in detail:
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0136a.html

 

Nope, just a good discussion going on. I was named for Deborah, but
my Father, who was a Southern Baptist Deacon, always felt that the Bible
spelled out the rules, and women are not allowed to be in the pulpit.

Southern Baptists have gone way liberal than when I was a Southern Baptist. Thats why I am IFB now - it is more like the Southern Baptist of my youth. :jesus:

 

That is sooooo true.

 

Karen,

not saying you are....but too often those on the other side of this issue take what we are saying and construe it to mean "women can't teach in ANY situation over men." None of us ever said that. We are not to hold authority over men IN THE CHURCH.......we are not to be the spiritual authority, or shepherd, of a church that includes grown adult men. That doesn't mean that we can't come in to a forum board and try to convince others of what we believe.

So yes, I also noticed the seemingly ironic circumstance of us women declaring "loudly" that we are supposed to be "silent"....lol

But in reality this isn't a church, and by me or the other ladies stating our opinions here, or our beliefs about what the Bible teaches, we are not usurping any authority over the men on the board.

 

John,

BDAG defines "ektithemi" as to set forth or explain. 2 Macabees 11:36 retains some of this sense translating "as we advised you...". Didasko is always "teach". There obviously is semantic overlap here.

In the end I agree with your views that women are not to be pastors and spiritual leaders.

But I made the point to disagree with your post because I feel you were attempting to make distinctions that are not implicit in the text - and I think that can in certain instances be very dangerous.

 

I believe that not allowing women to be pastors or teachers of men is a cultural issue and not a theological one. Christ himself broke all kinds of cultural mandates like healing on the Sabbath and speaking to the woman at the well. The distinction between male and female pastors has been blown way out of proportion. We need all the harvesters we can get in this down fallen world.

I believe that if Jesus were in a congregation listening to a female pastor, He would come forward after the service and thank her for her faithfullness.

 

Please correlate Romans 16:1 "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess of the church at Cencherae............" with 1 Timothy 3:8ff "likewise must the deacons.............(12) let the deacons be the husband of one wife.........."

Phoebe was clearly a deaconess approved by Paul.....so say most of the best theologians and expositors of the word, including the well known F.F. Bruce, late of Manchester, and reknowned scholar..........and Paul talking about male deacons in Timothy......Suggests a local problem and not establishing male deacons in the local church.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Just as a wife of the prophet was often called a prophetess there is no reason to believe that the title of deaconess may have been given to the wife of a deacon. Yes, wives of pastors and deacons must be holy and trustworthy if the pastor and deacon is to have a viable ministry but Paul is not giving qualifications for females that hold the offices. To keep things decent and in order a wife would often accompany her pastor/deacon husband to minster to the widows and it should be that way to today as well but she did not hold the office. She was a helpmeet to her husband.

I could be the Apostle Peter but if my wife came in to the worhsip service cussing with drink on her breath sucking a cigarette, braless in a see through blouse and a mini skirt slit up to the navel my ministry is going to be greatly hindered. Pastors/deacons need to ave holy women as wives.


May A Woman Pastor?

The Power Of Holy Women

 

What about a Prophetess?​

Ok, we talked about women pastors and I gave you a sheet with a letter where I spoke to women politicians. Is there an office of prophetess?

Prophetess 5031 nebiy'ah (neb-ee-yaw'); feminine of 5030; a prophetess or (generally) inspired woman; by implication, a poetess; by association a prophet's wife: KJV-- prophetess.

Indeed women can be inspired. I guess a pastor's wife could be called a pastorette using a definition of the word for prophetess, but that does not make her a pastor any more than a woman married to a prophet being one who had the gift of prophecy.

Exod 15:20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances. (KJV)

Miriam was a musician, dancer and songwriter in this passage. One who can compose songs, especially as impromptu as this was, can truly be called gifted or inspired. She was being a poetess. Did she speak for God or foretell the future? Not in this passage nor are we ever told of her doing such things in other passages.

Judg 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. (KJV)

This is a lady that folks often point to as prototype of woman pastors. One thing that must be remembered is that a prophet was not usually a priest. If you are looking for parallels then a priest is the parallel to a New Testament pastor. Prophets were God's fix-it folks that appeared when things were bad in Israel and the priest were not as holy or wise as they should be. They would show up and say their piece, fulfill their mission and see the fruit of that mission and often not heard of again. There were a few exceptions, but for the most part they were not full time pastors, evangelists or ministers of any kind that we think of in New Testament times.
We are not told, but if the term prophetess is given to the wife of a prophet then Lapidoth may well have been a prophet and hence Deborah the prophetess.
Ah, but you say she was a judge. She was like a ruler. Yes and when did she have this office? See verse one. The Children of Israel had done evil and were under God's judgment. This fits with Isaiah 3:12 that says that in the times when His people are rebellious women rule over them. This should have been a clue to the Israelites that they needed revival.
Verse nine further shows the judgement issue. One of the key things in a battle was to conquer the King or the General. The right of the victor would be to enslave him or kill him. It was part of law of war. In modern times, it is to conquer the capitol city of the country. This honor would not be given to Barak. It would be given to a woman.
After the victory what did Deborah and Barak do? They composed a song of victory? Again, the concept of a poetess/prophetess is fulfilled. She was an inspired woman. God shamed His people while He delivered them by speaking through a woman and gave the glory of the battle to a woman. However, if they had been right with God, it does not appear that Deborah would have been a judge or a forth-teller of God. I do not know why, but it is an interesting note that Barak is mentioned in the Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11, but not Deborah. Rahab is mentioned so it is not a men only club, but Deborah is left out. I do not even want to venture a conjecture on that. I merely point it out.


II Kings 22:14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college and they communed with her. (KJV)

2 Chr 34:22 And Hilkiah, and they that the king had appointed, went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvath, the son of Hasrah, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college and they spake to her to that effect. (KJV)

Again, Israel is in a backslidden condition when we are told of this lady. Josiah has found the book of the law and was shocked and repentant at what he read. He sent some lads to inquire of the Lord for him. Where did they go? Instead of the priests they went to this lady. Did they figure the priests were corrupt and would give them false information? I don't know, but they obviously had some trust in Huldah. Again, God speaks through a source that is not His usual one because His people are not right with Him. Again, we only hear of her ministry in this way one time. She said her piece, made her prophecy and then it was over. Her main calling was to be the wife of Shallum the wardrobe keeper not a prophetess or a priest/pastor.

Neh 6:14 My God, think thou upon Tobiah and Sanballat according to these their works, and on the prophetess Noadiah, and the rest of the prophets, that would have put me in fear. (KJV)

This lady was not a good prophetess. She and the lad prophets were not right with God and were trying to discourage Nehemiah. She might have been a foremother of Jezebel in the Revelation passage below.

Isa 8:3
3 And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Maher-shalal-hashbaz. (KJV)

Here Isaiah is speaking of his wife. She had the title because he was a prophet not because she had a ministry of prophecy. If you are unhappy with your name, be glad you weren't Isaiah's son.
So, in the whole Old Testament, we read of five women with the title prophetess. One was a false or evil one. Two were poetesses. One and possibly two had the title because they were married to prophets. Two actually did a one-time prophetic utterance thing. Two were prophetesses in good times and gave no utterances. The two that did have a prophetic utterance did so in a time when Israel was backslidden and all the men priests and prophets appeared to be AWOL. One was a judge. None were priests.
Therefore there is no evidence that women were called to any kind of full time prophetic ministry in the sense of forth-tellers. The word's meaning clearly shows that they were inspired women that were poetic and gifted musically and usually married to a prophet. The Biblical accounts also show that these were the primary roles of a prophetess. Any other role was an exception and not the rule.

How about in the New Testament?

4398 prophetis (prof-ay'-tis); feminine of 4396; a female foreteller or an inspired woman: KJV-- prophetess.

The Greek word does seem to give more of the connotation of what most folks think of when they think of a prophet. The word still means an inspired woman, but includes the gift of telling future events.

Luke 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; (KJV)

In this instance, Anna only gives thanks. She makes not predictions nor even speaks for God. She is inspired in that she recognizes Christ as the Redeemer of Israel. Her husband may well have been a prophet and again she acquired the title by marriage not gift or office. She is indeed the kind of widow that Paul says that the Church should put on the roll or support. (I Timothy 5) She is a prayer warrior and the Church could use a few more of those!!! Matthew Henry has some good thoughts and I include his commentary here.

Luke 2:25-40 PP26

II. He is taken notice of by one Anna, or Ann, a prophetess, that one of each sex might bear witness to him in whom both men and women are invited to believe, that they may be saved. Observe,
1. The account here given of this Anna, who she was. She was,
(1.) A prophetess; the Spirit of prophecy now began to revive, which had ceased in Israel above three hundred years. Perhaps no more is meant than that she was one who had understanding in the scriptures above other women, and made it her business to instruct the younger women in the things of God. Though it was a very degenerate age of the church, yet God left not himself without witness.
(2.) She was the daughter of Phanuel; her father's name (says Grotius) is mentioned, to put us in mind of Jacob's Phanuel, or Penuel <Gen. 32:30>, that now the mystery of that should be unfolded, when in Christ we should as it were see God face to face, and our lives be preserved; and her name signifies gracious.
(3.) she was of the tribe of Asher, which was in Galilee; this, some think, is taken notice of to refute those who said, Out of Galilee ariseth no prophet, when no sooner did prophecy revive but it appeared from Galilee.
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary)

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. (KJV)

Oops! This is one bad babe and I would not suggest anyone follow her lead. She is not a real prophetess. She is just like the Jezebel in the Old Testament and might be better called a witch.

4395 propheteuo (prof-ate-yoo'-o); from 4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office:
KJV-- prophesy.

 

Acts 21:8-9
8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. (KJV)

This is the only passage that clearly states four virgins did do some prophetic things. Remember I Corinthians 7? Paul said that single people could be more dedicated to the Lord. These ladies may have had some special blessings because of their single status and their hearts being wholly for Christ.
One must also look at the time period. When did the two Old Testament prophetesses actually prophesy? In times when Israel needed to repent they showed up. What was going on in this time? Israel had rejected their Messiah.
The Old Testament system had crashed on the Cross. Someone should have said, "Wait a minute! We have women prophesying. That is rare! Search the Scriptures! Hmm, when Israel was in sin and the priests were evil we had a couple of women that prophesied! Oy vey!!! The only thing we have done as a nation lately that would cause God to be angry would be the crucifixion of Jesus. He claimed to be God's Son! The priests were the ones that caused it! They must have been wrong!!! Jesus, we repent!! We believe! Save us!!!"
And many folks may well have done that. After all, these were daughters of an evangelist. Philip may well have pointed that fact out to them in his preaching. It was a fitting time to have women prophets.
So in the New Testament, we have six women called prophetesses. One was evil. One may have been a prophet's wife and hence the title. Four actually prophesied in a time when Israel sinned against God and the priests were corrupt.
In essence we have no evidence again that this was an office and certainly not a parallel to the pastorate. It also appears to have died out as did prophecy itself.

Heb 1:1-4
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. (KJV)

Paul is saying that the times of the prophets are over. God sent His Son as the final Prophet that is also Priest and King. We need no others either male or female. Does God have inspired gifted women that He uses? Of course, He does!!! Some are songwriters and poets. Some are teachers of the younger women. Some are pastor's wives.
Could some of the gifts that have passed away be revived? I believe that they may revive as a means of reaching the Jews. Remember they require signs and such.

1 Cor 1:22-24
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. (KJV)

One third of the Jews will turn to Christ during the Tribulation. We are told in Revelation that there will be two special witnesses that God will use then. Will they have the gifts of the prophets and other sign gifts? I believe so. As we get closer to the end, we may see some things for the Jews sakes, but they will most likely not be seen or prominent in Gentile Christian circles.
Could we use some prophets and prophetesses in the Church? Oh yes, we need them badly. A person who seeks out error in the Church and seeks to correct it is known today as a polemicist. They have some of the prophetic gift in that they show up and tell everyone what is wrong usually in clear, concise, "thus saith the Lord" terms. Their ministry is normally short lived because we still stone them and drive them away. They do not need to tell the future. We have that in Revelation. They will predict the consequences of not fixing what is broke and in that way tell forth and forth tell God's will and Word. God still has fix-it people. Will we listen to them? God help us to do so!

 

imho this is the common sense on how the Holy Spirit helps us and sees people in Christ...if someone is trying to reveal Jesus Christ then they are in with me!

How do you people square *Joyce Meyers...TBN....700 *club I hear a lot of womens voices and yes they are talking about scripture and doctrine and the such...it seems God will use whom ever he desires they may not be perfect but if they hit on "Jesus Saves! no buts attached" Jesus who is at the right hand of the Father supports that and the Holy Spirit will bring opportunity to goodhearted women in Christ...who are seen as Little Christs in the Fathers eyes ..and God will find a way for them. imho I hope and pray Jesus sees them as Little Jesus first and women second in my humble opinion.


* I do not agree with these ministries perfectly just pointing to the fact womens voices are being heard more and more and the landscape is changing and I believe their are some good hearted women serving with all their heart to shepherd a flock under the submission of the local church whom with prayer and help of the Holy Spirit can either ordain a woman or not ordain a woman...I respect that and will not insult their sincere prayers of help from the Advocate who sits at the right hand of the Father.

 

How do you square a 'ministry' that you do not agree with . . . with the Word of God.

Either you square with God - or you are a sinner . . .

ME? I am a sinner that knows enough not to tell God that His Word (Wasn't Jesus His Word?) is wrong . . . IMHO.

 

Even a broken clock is right two times a day . . .

:godisgood:

 

Donna, I hope this helps, if you are still following this thread. I was going to write out a complete

answer, but thought rather I'd refer you to one I already posted a while ago. Try this:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=33015&page=4

starting with post #31, and see if you find this beneficial. Of course, you or anyone can read any

post you choose, but my posts here will save me some time, I don't really have to spare, at the

moment.

In His grace,

Ed

 

Thanks. I usually try to include links to both the CBMW and CBE in these discussions but didn't do so this time.

 

You know what? I'm starting to get irritated. So far you have called my posts silly and dangerous, and said I was setting a bad example and basing my arguments on preconceived notions (an attack on my integrity, as I see it). Now you are saying again that I am dangerous. And frankly, I have come to the notion that in spite of your fancy terminology you have no real expertise in this area. Do you have any formal training in linguistics or Biblical languages? Are you fluent in (not just acquainted with) anything besides English?

Look again at your example supposedly proving that didasko and ektithemi are synonyms meaning "to teach." You say that in 2 Mac. 11:36 ektithemi is "as we advised you." It is not. You misread the Greek, if indeed you can even read it. Ektithemi is used in the second half of the verse where Lancelot Brenton translates it "we may declare" (aorist subjunctive). For those who don't have access to the document, the context is that of an official letter written by Roman ambassadors. Since when do ambassadors "teach" in the execution of their duties? They don't. They simply pass on what they have been told to. Your example further proves my point that ekithemi never means "to teach."

You know what I think is dangerous? Setting oneself up as an expert in Greek exegesis and a linguist when one is not. Is that what you are doing?