WOMEN PREACHERS

How about Joel 2:28 Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy.

It is evident that we are indeed living in the last days. God said 'I will pour out of my Spirit upon ALL flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" It is not just the sons, but daughters as well.

Also, we have to look at this verse...

The Bible declares that women will prophesy: 1 Cor. 11:5, "For every woman that prayeth or prophesieth...."

Both the Hebrew (Nebrah), and Greek (Proph) used for prophetess means (female preacher). (See Young's Concordance, Pg. 780

 

I believe that the portion regarding sons and daughters propehsying was fulfilled in Acts. Peter specifically applied the passage to the situation saying, "This is that which was spoken by Joel".

I believe that the miraculous signs were for the purpose of authenticating the ministry of the Apostles and those in the first century church. I believe that special revelation knowledge, tongues, and NT prophecy ceased when John wrote the last words of Revelation. Paul said, these three would cease when THAT which is perfect is come. Up till then, they had bits and pieces of revelation from God. At that point they had the completed Old and New Testaments. While it was not formally collated at that point, the letters to the churches were copied and circulated among the churches and clearly understood to be the inspired Word of God.

Yes, we are in the last days of the Church age, but Peter was also in the last days according to his own testimony.

Besides, even if the gift of prophecy were for today, it still does not prove that women are to prophesy to men in the church. Especially in light of a clear command to the contrary...

 

Well, as long as we have mentioned prophecy, a true prophet was always subject to judgment by the actual truth of the prophecy and this is always to be evaluated in light of what God has already said.

Since, He has already forbidden women to teach or usurp authority over the man and demanded their silence in the assembly anything that is in conflict with these is an accursed message...

False prophets were dealt with pretty severely in the OT. Fallible prophecy, I think not.

 

FWIW, from The Complete WordStudy Dictionary:

G2980

λαλέω

laléō; contracted lalṓ, fut. lalḗsō. To talk at random, as contrasted with légō (G3004) which involves the intellectual part of man, his reason. It is used especially of children with the meaning of to talk much. The dumb man is álalos (G216), mute (Mar_7:37; Mar_9:17, Mar_9:25); when restored to speech, he is said to elálēse, the aor. of laléō (Mat_9:33; Luk_11:14), emphasizing the fact of speech versus speechlessness. When reference is made to those who spoke in tongues, whether foreign languages or the Corinthian unknown tongue, it is always referred to as laléō glṓssais (glṓssa [G1100], tongue), to speak in tongues (Mar_16:17; Act_2:4; 1Co_12:30). This emphasized not the content of the speech, but merely that they uttered sounds as far as the hearers were concerned. Laléō is ascribed to God (Heb_1:1-2), indicating not that the content of His speech was meaningless, but simply that He spoke. Contrast légō (G3004), to speak expressing thoughts, or apophthéggomai (G669), to speak forth, made up from apó (G575), from, and phthóggos, any clear and distinct sound which makes sense or, if it is a musical sound, conveying harmony (Act_2:14 in which case when Peter spoke he was understood). The same word apophthéggomai is used in Act_2:4, certifying that the other languages which the Holy Spirit enabled the Jews gathered at Pentecost to speak were other ethnic languages, not the unknown tongue of the Corinthians. The verse reads, "And all were filled with the Holy Spirit and they began speaking [laleín {G2980}, to speak] other languages [hetérais {G2083}, qualitatively different] that the Spirit was giving to them [apophthéggesthai] to sound out" (a.t.). The idea here is that the Holy Spirit gave the ability to these Jews at Pentecost to say certain things in languages other than their own with sounds that were not gibberish but were well formulated syllabic utterances which could be understood by others. The basic verb phthéggomai (G5350), to utter a sound or voice as we do when we ordinarily speak, also occurs in Act_4:18, "And they called them, and commanded them not to speak [phthéggesthai] at all nor teach in the name of Jesus." When one teaches, he pronounces words clearly in order that others may understand him. This verb occurs also in 2Pe_2:16 and indicates that the donkey which spoke to Balaam actually pronounced syllabic human words: "The dumb ass speaking [phthegxámenon, pronounced words in the language which Balaam could understand] with man's voice." When God spoke to Balaam, He did not use an unknown tongue, but spoke through a donkey in human speech, using the very language which Balaam could understand. Phthéggomai is also used in 2Pe_2:18 and the comp. apophthéggomai is used in Act_26:25. The verb phēmí (G5346), to speak but in a revealing manner making known one's thoughts, from which verb prophḗtēs (G4396), a prophet, is derived, is never used for speaking in the manner that laléō is used in connection with other languages or language or the unknown tongue of the Corinthians. The verb laléō being the only verb used in the expression "speaking in tongues" or "in a tongue," indicates that the speaking in these languages other than their own was not something that was of a permanent acquisition or learning which could be done at will. It was a temporary supernatural enablement of the Holy Spirit in actually putting utterances in the mouths of these people. What they were saying was not a product of their own intelligence, but a direct product of the Holy Spirit. The Eng. word "glossolalia" is derived from the noun glṓssa and laliá ([G2981], the subst. of laléō). In Gr. glōssolaliá as a comp. word does not occur in the NT.

(I) Particularly of persons, used in an absolute sense (Mat_9:33; Mat_12:22; Mat_15:31; Mar_5:35; Luk_7:15; Act_18:9; Jam_1:19; Sept.: 1Sa_3:9-10; Isa_1:2); followed by adv. (Mar_7:35; Joh_18:23; Act_7:6; Heb_6:9). In 2Jo_1:12, "face to face" is synonymous with mouth to mouth (see Sept.: Num_12:8). With adjuncts of manner, e.g., dat. as parrēsía (G3954), boldly, openly (Joh_7:26). Idía dialéktō (idía [G2398], own; dialéktō [G1258], dialect), in their own dialect (Act_2:6; see Act_6:10; 1Co_13:1). With a prep., e.g., eis (G1519), unto, aéra (G109), air (1Co_14:9), i.e., aimlessly; ek (G1537), out of, with gen. of manner or source (Mat_12:34; Joh_8:44, "he speaketh of his own," out of himself, externalizing what he actually is); with en (G1722), in or by means of, followed by dat. is that no man speaking in (or by means of) the "Spirit of God calls [légei {G3004}] Jesus accursed" (a.t. [1Co_12:3]). Here the part. lalṓn is used along with légei, thus the two words are being contrasted in their meaning. No one pretending to speak in the Spirit of God (lalṓn) can actually use his mental faculties (légei) to call Jesus accursed. When the Holy Spirit puts words in one's mouth, they are words that extol the Lord Jesus Christ knowingly. Followed by the part. of manner as in Luk_1:64, "and he spoke [elálei], praising God" (a.t.). What the Holy Spirit put in his mouth was praise to the Lord. The part. eulogṓn (G2127), praising, is from eú (G2095), well, and légō (G3004), to speak intelligently, speak well of. See 2Co_11:23.

In various constructions designating the person or thing to or of whom one speaks:
(A) Following the dat. of person meaning to speak to or with someone (Mat_12:47; Luk_1:22; Joh_9:29; Joh_19:10; Act_7:38; Rom_7:1; Sept.: Gen_18:33). With an adjunct of manner added, e.g., the dat. parrēsía (G3954), boldly (Joh_7:13; Eph_5:19, singing psalms together). Followed by en (G1722), in, with the dat. (1Co_14:6, 1Co_14:21); perí (G4012), about, and the gen. (Luk_2:38); a part. such as légōn (G3004), speaking with understanding, thus giving definiteness to the idea of laléō (Mat_14:27; Mat_23:1; Mat_28:18; Luk_24:6; Sept.: Gen_17:3; Gen_34:8; Gen_42:22).
(B) Followed by metá (G3326) and the gen., with someone, meaning to speak with (Joh_4:27; Joh_9:37; Sept.: Gen_35:13; Num_11:17). With légō (Mar_6:50).
(C) Followed by prós (G4314), toward someone, with the acc. meaning to speak to, found only three times except in Luke's writings (1Th_2:2; Heb_5:5; Heb_11:18); speaking to the people (Act_4:1; Act_21:39; Sept.: Gen_18:27, Gen_18:29); by euaggelízomai (G2097), to evangelize (Luk_1:19; Act_11:20); with légō implied (Heb_5:5; Heb_11:18).
(D) Followed by perí (G4012), about someone, with the gen., to speak about or of someone (Joh_8:26; Joh_12:41; Sept.: Eze_33:30).
(E) With the acc. of a kindred noun or a pron., in a general or adv. sense, and thus differing from légō, with the acc. which implies a def. obj. or is followed by the express words spoken. In Mar_2:7; Act_6:13, to speak blasphemies; in Joh_8:44, to speak falsehood, a lie (see Jud_1:15-16; Sept.: Exo_4:12). With other adjuncts, e.g., acc. and dat. of thing (Mat_9:18; Joh_14:25; Joh_15:11; Sept.: Gen_28:15). With the dat. of manner (Mar_8:32; 1Co_14:2); en Christṓ, in Christ, meaning by His authority (2Co_12:19); katá (G2596), according to, followed by the acc. (2Co_11:17); perí (G4012), concerning, followed by the gen., to say something concerning someone (Luk_2:33).

(II) As modified by the context where the meaning lies not so much in the verb itself, laléō, as in the adjuncts.
(A) Of one teaching, meaning to teach, preach, used in an absolute sense (Luk_5:4; 1Co_14:34-35; 1Pe_4:11). Followed by an adv. (Joh_12:50; Act_14:1; Eph_6:20); apó (G575), from, versus ek (G1537), out of, with the gen. of source or occasion (Joh_7:17-18); ek with the gen. of manner (Joh_3:31); the dat. of manner (Mar_16:17, "they shall speak with new tongues"; Act_2:4). With adjunct of person, to whom, e.g., dat. (Joh_15:22; 1Co_3:1); en (G1722), in, with the dat. of manner (Mat_13:10, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" [a.t.]; Mat_13:34, "without a parable"); with epí (G1909), upon, tṓ onómati (G3686), name, followed by the gen., to speak the name with the def. art., to speak in or upon or about this name to someone (Act_5:40); perí (G4012), about, to speak about something (Luk_9:11); with the acc. of the thing taught, in an absolute sense (Joh_3:11; Joh_8:30, Joh_8:40; Joh_18:20; Act_20:30; Tit_2:1). Also in reference to the doctrines of Jesus (Joh_8:28, Joh_8:38; Joh_12:50; Act_5:20; Act_17:19; 1Co_2:6-7) with didáskō (G1321), to teach (Act_18:25); with person to whom, e.g., dat. (Mar_2:2, "he was speaking to them the word" (a.t.); Mar_4:33; Joh_6:63; Act_8:25). Followed by en (G1722), in, with dat. of manner (Joh_16:25); with légōn, saying (Mat_13:3). To speak something to someone (Act_3:22; 1Th_2:2, "to speak unto you the gospel" [a.t.]).
(B) Of those who tell, relate, declare, announce something (Joh_1:37); with prós (G4314), to, followed by the acc. and preceded by an adv. (Luk_2:20, "as it was spoken [or announced] to them" [a.t.]). Following the acc. of thing (Mat_26:13; Act_4:20, "which we saw and heard, not to speak [mḗ laleín]" [a.t.]); the acc. and dat. of person (Mat_13:33); kath’ hón trópon (G5158), manner, in which manner (Act_27:25); pará (G3844), by, with the gen. (Luk_1:45, "the things spoken to her by the Lord" [a.t.]).
(C) Of prophecy or predictions meaning to foretell, declare (Act_3:24; Act_26:22; Jam_5:10; 2Pe_1:21). With prós (G4314), to, with the acc. meaning to speak, foretell, declare to someone (Act_28:25, "the Holy Spirit spoke [or prophesied] . . . to our fathers" [a.t.]); followed by the acc. of thing (see I, A, 5 above). In Luk_24:25, the dat. hoís is used by attraction for the antecedent noun, hoís elálēsan, instead of há elálēsan. See Act_3:21, where the gen. hṓn is used instead of the acc. há. Followed by the dat. of person (Joh_16:1, Joh_16:4); by the acc. (Luk_1:55, Luk_1:70).
(D) Of what is said with authority, meaning to direct, charge, prescribe, followed by the dat. (Mar_16:19). With the acc. and dat., taúta ([acc.] these things) lelálēka (I have spoken) humín ([dat.] unto you; Joh_15:11). The acc. and eis (G1519), unto, and perí (G4012), about (Heb_7:14). With the meaning to publish or promulgate authoritatively (Heb_3:5; Heb_9:19).
(E) Figuratively to speak by writing or letter (2Co_11:17; Heb_2:5; 2Pe_3:16); of one dead who speaks or exhorts by his example (Heb_11:4).

(III) Metonymically of things, e.g.:
(A) Of a law, meaning to prescribe (Rom_3:19).
(B) Of the expiatory blood of Jesus (Heb_12:24) meaning speaking better than (the blood of) Abel, since the latter cried only for vengeance (Gen_4:10).
(C) In the vision of the Revelation, spoken of a voice (Rev_1:12; Rev_4:1; Rev_10:4); thunders which are said to utter their own voices (Rev_10:3-4); a beast (Rev_13:5, Rev_13:11, Rev_13:15).
Deriv.: alálētos (G215), unspeakable; álalos (G216), unable to speak; dialaléō (G1255), to converse; eklaléō (G1583), to speak out; katalaléō (G2635), to speak against, backbite; laliá (G2981), saying, speech; mogilálos (G3424), speaking with difficulty, a stutterer; proslaléō (G4354), to speak to or with; sullaléō (G4814), to speak with.
Syn.: apaggéllō (G518), to announce, declare, report; anaggéllō (G312), to announce, declare; apophthéggomai (G669), to speak forth; diēgéomai (G1334), to declare, report, narrate; eréō (G2046), to speak; hēsucházō (G2270), to be still, silent légō (G3004), to speak thoughtfully; homiléō (G3656), to talk, converse; phēmí (G5346), to declare; phthéggomai (G5350), to utter a sound or voice, to proclaim.
Ant.: phimóō (G5392), to muzzle; sigáō (G4601), to be silent; siōpáō (G4623), to hush, be speechless.

 

kinda quiet here. has it all been said?

 

Axioms:
1. It is unbiblical for a woman to pastor or preach.
2. God does things and says things for good reasons and purposes.

Question:
What is the reason? </font>[/QUOTE]God does not necessarily supply reasons with His directives. Does God need to justify His commandments for man? Furthermore, one cannot logically draw inferences from an imperative (i.e. command or directive), only statements. The OT is replenish with commands that have no reason attached even though God may choose to state a reason.

My best answer to your questions is probably found in I Timothy 2:11-14. Why don't you read this passage with references from your study Bible and let me know what you think. Okay?

 

So now, how did Mr. Young know that prophetess is a female preacher? Also, is there any indication that this prophesying, preaching if you please, is not the teaching function of women among women (e.g. Titus 2:3-4)? Can you support where this is an instance of a woman teaching or preaching doctrine to men? Furthermore, is prophesying necessarily doctrinal preaching or can it be praise and worship? (Compare to I Samuel 10:10-13) Here נבא refers to a praising under divine influence of the Holy Spirit rather than preaching or foretelling. Therefore, is it not reasonable, in light of other Scriptures prohibiting doctrinal preaching or teaching by women, that προφητευω is better translated praising or worshipping than "prophesieth"? This is a legitimate understanding and use of προφητευω. Personally, I lean toward this view. I know of no Scripture that prohibits women from publicly praying and praising God. Do you?

 

I respectfully disagree. I don't know where you find your information and I repudiate the validity of your inferences. For example, you are simply wrong about λαλεω being translated preached. Although it can be translated preached (e.g. Mark 2:2), I am not aware of Luke using λαλεω as specifically preaching. To the best of my knowledge, Luke always used λαλεω as conversational speaking or talking (e.g. Luke 6:45, 7:15).

 

Overall, you are correct. λαλεω should only be translated as preach when the context infers that the activity was preaching. However, I don't think you will find Luke using λαλεω in the context of preaching. The Lukan usage is in reference to talk or speaking. The argument is specious.

 

Overall, you are correct. λαλεω should only be translated as preach when the context infers that the activity was preaching. However, I don't think you will find Luke using λαλεω in the context of preaching. The Lukan usage is in reference to talk or speaking. The argument is specious. </font>[/QUOTE]Personally, I think you're splitting hairs. Look at the verse which describes what Anna did after meeting Jesus.

Luk 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Is there any question that she was evangelizing? Since there were no Christian churches at that time (before Jesus' ministry) the question is: Was she spreading the good news to individuals or groups? I personally would call evalgelizing in front of groups preaching now matter how you decide the Greek word for "spake" should be translated. We don't know the answer to this but there's certainly a possibility that she did speak to groups of people. If not and she spoke to a man then I would argue that she was teaching a man about the most important topic, that Jesus the Messiah had come.

 

She was in the Jewish Temple not the assembly of believers. There is no indication that any kind of formal teaching or preaching session was going on. Your post contains numerous assumptions and uncertainties -- "We don't know... possibility... I would argue..."

I would argue that she was not formally teaching or preaching to men in the assembly. That is what is forbidden. Splitting hairs? I would word it slightly differently by using the words "rightly dividing". And since women preachers is the topic of the post, I have addressed the issue directly from a clear text, you have sidestepped it.

 

I believe
Anna was speaking to both men and women. The verse states that she 'spake of Him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.'

To all them who looked for redemption. If you study out the Old Testament, both men and women alike sought and hungered for redemption. They knew of the prophecy of the Messiah to be born of a virgin, they knew the Messiah would one day come into Jerusalem riding on the foal of an ass.

They did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah who would come at that time. But there were some who knew that He had come. Herod knew the Christ child was born, else he would not have ordered the slaughter of innocent children throughout the land. The wise men knew. Shepherds heard the proclamation by angels.

Simeon proclaimed that he had seen the Lord's Salvation.

And here was Anna, the prophetess telling everyone who was seeking that Christ indeed was born!

Yes, Anna was evangelizing. Women can preach, women can teach.

 

Even if I granted that Anna was preaching and teaching, which I DO NOT, it has no bearing on the fact that Paul has forbidden it in the assembly!

God told Noah -- Ge 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you...

Does that invalidate the later command that Jews were not to eat pork? By your line of reasoning it does. Different rules for different times and different situations.

In fact, for the record, let me just concede right now that as far as I am concerned, ANY WOMAN who wants to go stand and testify in the Temple at Jerusalem that the Messiah has arrived, GO AHEAD AND HAVE AT IT!!!

 

SFIC is 100% scripturally correct. Yes, women can preach, and can teach. The issue of contention is that of pastoring. There are aa select set of verses that can be implied as an adminoshment against a women pastoring. But preaching and teaching? No such admonition. In fact, the Great Commission exprtessly tells all people, men and women alke, to preach the Gospel. I can't think of anyone who would be idiotic enough to claim that the GC is for men only.

 

Teach?

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Are we using the same book?

Women cannot be elders, that is clear from the gender of the requirement than an elder be the husband of one wife. That they are not permitted to teach (didaskw is the word the Bible uses) men is also abundantly clear.

The GC? Sure it is for all. All should witness for the Lord Jesus. Women are forbidden to teach the Word of God authoritatively to men.

I feel like the Energizer Bunny, this thing keeps going and going and going...

Friends, God is not unclear on this matter! Some just refuse to accept what He has clearly said. I cannot think of anything to say, that has not already been said.

God's creation order sets the pattern and Paul confirms and affirms it for the Church. Women are not to be in authority over men in the church. What part of "suffer not" is unclear?

 

Paul said, 'But I suffer not a woman to teach...'. That does not mean that God did not allow it. We see in past scripture referrences given, that women were indeed allowed to preach and to teach.

Again, that is Paul's preferrece as to women preaching, He did not say God does not want it.

 

Yes we are, and you're disregarding the overall context, not to mention the cultural and societal context, of the chapter. As already noted, Paul is here saying what he would not do in this specific situation. He's not delivering a doctrinal absolute for all time here. He's giving guidelines for a specific situation that needed to be dealt with, which, if one looks at the chapter as a whole, was the issue of certain false teachings entering the church (though we are never told what those false teachings were).

Note also that the verb here is 'authentein'. This is the only place in the NT where the word appears. It means "to domineer", or "to control in a domineering manner". It does not refer to authority in general.

Paul's words appear to support the idea that it is permissible for a church to only have a man or woman in certain roles if there is a practical reason for them to do so. However, it is not a doctrinal absolute that this be done.

 

No, there is nothing in the historic-grammatical context that warrants such an interpretation. It is only when you bring your presuppositions from a modern context into play that such an understanding is possible.

 

Yes we are, and you're disregarding the overall context, not to mention the cultural and societal context, of the chapter. As already noted, Paul is here saying what he would not do in this specific situation. He's not delivering a doctrinal absolute for all time here. He's giving guidelines for a specific situation that needed to be dealt with, which, if one looks at the chapter as a whole, was the issue of certain false teachings entering the church (though we are never told what those false teachings were).

Note also that the verb here is 'authentein'. This is the only place in the NT where the word appears. It means "to domineer", or "to control in a domineering manner". It does not refer to authority in general.

Paul's words appear to support the idea that it is permissible for a church to only have a man or woman in certain roles if there is a practical reason for them to do so. However, it is not a doctrinal absolute that this be done. </font>[/QUOTE]Baloney! It really doesn't matter how you slice it--it's still baloney! αυψεντεω carries the connotation of usurping authority or assuming authority of one's own self that is not rightly his. This fits the context of a woman unlawfully exercising authority in doctrinal matters over a man. This ties in nicely with the idea that a woman, who is to be subject (i.e. under the authority) to her own husband, is to consult her husband at home on doctrinal teachings of the church (I Corinthians 13:34-35). Any woman who purports to teach or preach doctrinal things over men in the church is outside of her Biblical role. Preaching and teaching in the church implies Biblical authority that no woman has over a man. On the other hand, a woman may teach children or other women even though the passage that is typically used to justify this refers more to teaching by example than lecturing (Titus 2:4).

BTW, what is the “cultural and societal context” to which you refer? Please state specifically.

 

No, you have not shown in past Scriptural references that a woman is allowed to preach and teach doctrine in the church. This is begging the question. The point has not been proven--you have only made the assertion but not proven it. Therefore, your faulty premise (i.e. woman are allowed to preach and teach in the church in other instances) leads to an equally fallacious conclusion. If you want to debate, you must follow the rules of logic.