Women Preachers

[BobinKy]

Some of you guys may not like me after this--but. . .


Read the gospel of John, chapter 20.

Who had the courage to first go to the tomb?

Who told Simon Peter, and another disciple whom Jesus loved, about the empty tomb?

Who stayed at the tomb, when the other disciples returned to their home?

Who did the angels speak to at the tomb?

Who first saw and spoke with Jesus at the tomb?

Who did Jesus send to tell the brethern:

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)​

And who did what Jesus told her to do?

. . .

I listen to women.

...Bob

 

[jaigner]

Who had the courage to first go to the tomb?
Who told Simon Peter, and another disciple whom Jesus loved, about the empty tomb?
Who stayed at the tomb, when the other disciples returned to their home?
Who did the angels speak to at the tomb?
Who first saw and spoke with Jesus at the tomb?
Who did Jesus send to tell the brethern: "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

Well said, Bob.

 

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by BobinKy
Who had the courage to first go to the tomb?
Who told Simon Peter, and another disciple whom Jesus loved, about the empty tomb?
Who stayed at the tomb, when the other disciples returned to their home?
Who did the angels speak to at the tomb?
Who first saw and spoke with Jesus at the tomb?
Who did Jesus send to tell the brethern: "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

Well said, Bob.

That was not the church. That was OT times. We are NT and the church. And did not the Holy Spirit say to the church?
Titus 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

 

[preacher4truth]

That was not the church. We are NT and the church...And did not the Holy Spirit say to the church?
Titus 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Amen freeatlast!


:thumbs:

 

[annsni]

Unfortunately, it's just not that easy. There are lots of contextual considerations in this, not the least of which is the time in which it was written. Women weren't allowed to do much of anything. They were property. The fact that women also weren't allowed to lead in the Church derives from their standing in society.

Paul was clearly talking to a male-dominated society when he said they must be "husbands of one wife." It wouldn't have made sense at the time to say "...or wife of one husband." It would have been meaningless.

It is a grave error when we try to read in implications that would not have made sense at the time.

Archangel posted just what I would have posted. It's hard to pinpoint it to cultural when Paul points back to creation.

 

[Jerome]

Oops, in Acts 18 we find Aquila and Priscilla expounding the way of God to Preacher Apollos. Sounds like teaching to me:thumbs:

 

[BobinKy]

That was not the church. That was OT times. We are NT and the church.

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18)

The Greek word translated church in the KJB rendering of Matt. 16:18 is ekklesia (Strong # 1577) and means literally a chosen or called-out assembly.

This occurrence (Matt. 16:18) is the first occurrence of the word in the New Testament. This occurrence took place before the crucifixion of Jesus.

...Bob

 

[preachinjesus]

I listen to women.

I don't think anyone in this thread is suggesting that we shouldn't...well maybe one or two.

Women are a valued part of any ministry. They provide insights and support just as well as men.

 

[preachinjesus]

Unfortunately, it's just not that easy. There are lots of contextual considerations in this, not the least of which is the time in which it was written. Women weren't allowed to do much of anything. They were property. The fact that women also weren't allowed to lead in the Church derives from their standing in society.

While certain cultural prohibitions notwithstanding, I fail to see how this provides a substantive reply.

There are plenty of places in Scripture where women are given places to speak, minister, and even preach (I fail to see how preaching equals pastoring.) Yet in the issue of leadership of the local the plain text reading of the New Testament teaches male headship (though not domination.)

Paul was clearly talking to a male-dominated society when he said they must be "husbands of one wife." It wouldn't have made sense at the time to say "...or wife of one husband." It would have been meaningless.

No it wouldn't, you can't read this into the text. One big issue that you have to overcome is Paul, and other ecclesiologists in the New Testament, wrote about leadership roles in multiple texts to divergent congregations that all were encouraged to honor the example of male headship in the local congregation.

It is a grave error when we try to read in implications that would not have made sense at the time.

You can say this all day long, but you have yet to provide a single Scriptural source to back it up. My challenge is to get out of the argumentation and into biblical source material. (BTW, there are verses you can use about this to promulgate your position.)

This last point really isn't a point is it? More of a accusation than anything I suppose, the reality is that you can make a case but you haven't. I'd challenge you to show us, in the text, where the New Testament teaches an egalitarian view of local church leadership.

Here's something to chew on: you can't use Galatians 3:28 to say there isn't distinction on roles. The passage context is speaking to salvation not service. It speaks to our being under Christ's grace for our salvation and not the law's guardianship. Therefore it doesn't work because the NT clearly teaches there are distinct gender roles in both the local church and the family. Now remember roles don't equal duties...there is something more to them.

 

[annsni]

Oops, in Acts 18 we find Aquila and Priscilla expounding the way of God to Preacher Apollos. Sounds like teaching to me:thumbs:

Hmmm - a husband and wife working together to teach someone outside of the church assembly. You really think that's an argument for women leading in the church?

 

[preachinjesus]

Isn't it interesting that when Paul is speaking about specific roles within the Church in Ephesians 4:11 he uses all words with a masculine declension?

 

[Jerome]

Ooops, Paul uses the word deacon(masculine declension) for Phoebe in Romans 16.

Good case in point is Romans 16 where Phoebe (a woman in the church at Cenchrea, neighbor to Corinth) is called by the MASCULINE TITLE "deacon" (not simply as a feminine form of the word, which would be a female servant)

Isn't that interesting.

 

[annsni]

Ooops, Paul uses the word deacon(masculine declension) for Phoebe in Romans 16.



Isn't that interesting.

Not really. Is there a feminine term for servant?

 

[jaigner]

Here's something to chew on: you can't use Galatians 3:28 to say there isn't distinction on roles. The passage context is speaking to salvation not service. It speaks to our being under Christ's grace for our salvation and not the law's guardianship. Therefore it doesn't work because the NT clearly teaches there are distinct gender roles in both the local church and the family. Now remember roles don't equal duties...there is something more to them.

I can give more thought and explanation later, but you are right about the Galatians text. It is a peculiar misuse of that passage to emphasize anything conclusive regarding roles.

 

[Jerome]

Not really. Is there a feminine term for servant?

There sure is. (read about Rhoda in Acts 12)

 

[Jerome]

From the Los Angeles Times, June 4, 1913:

NEWS BRIEFS.
The "Fundamental Bible Conference" under the auspices of the Haddon-Tucker Extension Bible Class, opened a three-days' undenominational conference at Calvary Baptist Church last night. Rev. Ernest Quick led the devotionals and Rev. W. Leon Tucker of Los Angeles gave a book study of Genesis, illustrated by chart. This afternoon Rev. R. A. Hadden gave an interesting talk upon Sunday-school study. Other subjects to be considered at the conference will be "Christian Science and the Bible." by Miss Florence Culver of Pasadena, "Spiritism and the Scriptures," Rev. Arthur W. Pink of Los Angeles, and "The Presence and Work of the Holy Spirit," Rev. Robert. A. Hadden.

 

[annsni]

There sure is. (read about Rhoda in Acts 12)

I see this as a completely different term than servant. They are not synonyms at all.

 

[Armchair Scholar]

Ooops, Paul uses the word deacon(masculine declension) for Phoebe in Romans 16.



Isn't that interesting.

Regardless of Greek gender, Paul specifically defined a "deacon" (diakonos, in Phil 1:1, 1 Tim 3:8, 3:12) as a "husband of one wife," meaning deacons in the local church body are to be men. When he mentioned the "office of deacon" (in 1 Tim 3:10, 3:13), the word diakoneo can refer to a general term of servant, attendant, server of food of either men or women. But by using the word diakoneo, Paul was not then saying that those who hold the office of deacon could be both men and women. He specified the gender of a deacon by addressing the characteristics that a deacon must have in order to hold the office in the church. The diakonos is one who executes the command of another; in the case of the church, the deacon executes the commands given to him by the pastor and/or elders. These are men, as pointed out by Paul when he was instructing Timothy on church order.

When read in context, the scripture is quite clear.

 

[Jerome]

Binghampton (N.Y) Press, April 10, 1935:

Association for Evangelism in Orient to Convene for Two Days
Johnson City, April 10—Internationally known speakers and missionary leaders of the Baptist denomination will be heard at the annual meeting of the Association of Baptists for Evangelism In the Orient, Inc., April 25 and 26 at the First Baptist church of Johnson City. The Rev. Howard C. Fulton, pastor of the Belden Avenue Baptist Church of Chicago, will speak the opening night at a mass meeting. Dr. Fulton is well known In this area, according to the Rev Harold T. Commons, pastor of the church andvice president of the association. The Rev. D. O. Fuller, pastor of the Wealthy Street Baptist Church of Grand Rapids, Mich. also will speak the opening night.
. . . .
The second night the Rev. William W. Ayer, pastor of the Phillpott Tabernacle, Hamilton. Ont. and the Rev. R. C. Thomas, missionary for about 25 years to the Philippine Islands, will be heard. Mrs. Henry W. Peabody, Beverly, Mass, president of the association, will conduct the sessions. . . .

Oh no she didn't!
A woman presiding at a fundamental Baptist meeting?
How times have changed.
[This fundamentalist Baptist missions group is now known as ABWE]

 

[annsni]

Binghampton (N.Y) Press, April 10, 1935:


Oh no she didn't!
A woman presiding at a fundamental Baptist meeting?
How times have changed.
[This fundamentalist Baptist missions group is now known as ABWE]

Again, why are you pointing as your "proof" man instead of God?