Women working outside the home...

Yes, I'll deny it. Some children are better cared for by their fathers. Some children are better cared for by their grandparents (ask my conservative evangelical mother about her Ph.D. research on that very topic sometime...she'll give you reams of info there). Some children are better cared for by their teachers than they are by their mothers.

In addition, many children have loving mothers and fathers who manage to nurture, train, and care for them while working. As has been pointed out several times, they probably spend just as much time with their children as mothers and fathers did at any time before the Industrial Revolution.

Joshua

There are no absolutes on this issue.

 

Yes, I'll deny it. Some children are better cared for by their fathers. Some children are better cared for by their grandparents (ask my conservative evangelical mother about her Ph.D. research on that very topic sometime...she'll give you reams of info there). Some children are better cared for by their teachers than they are by their mothers.

In addition, many children have loving mothers and fathers who manage to nurture, train, and care for them while working. As has been pointed out several times, they probably spend just as much time with their children as mothers and fathers did at any time before the Industrial Revolution.

Joshua

There are no absolutes on this issue.</font>[/QUOTE]How does your conservative evangelical mother feel about your liberal, ecumenical theology?!? I am sure it is a hot topic around the dinner table whenever you visit her(or vice-versa)

 

I did not bother to read every post on this topic, because there was 40 listed by the time I found this.
Let me say I have no problem with women working. If one they are trying to help the family financial and two it does not in any way jeopardize the care of their children.
This USA is made up of mainly two income families some families need to have the extra income for various reasons. Usually just to survive.
I also believe we should take the in account rather or not the children are taking care of appropiately. I am totally against allowing someone else raise your child. That means having them in daycare from 8-5, 5 days a week. If that is the case maybe priorites need to be reexamined.
And one should try to get out of that situation as soon as possible.
Lucky for me I have a fulltime job where I do not need to send my children to daycare. I am a fulltime RN and I work the night shift 7p-7a 3 nights a week. I also made the choice to work that shift so I could be home with my girls. I know many of you have jobs that do not give you that flexibilty. But I do encourage you to seek out those jobs that do or be home with your child. Their is nothing like a mother's love.
Cathy

 

Except a father's love.

P.S. Jimmy - I won't derail this thread with this topic. Suffice it to say we rarely discuss religion.

[ April 26, 2002, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Rev. Joshua Villines ]

 

The Proverbs 31 woman did a lot of thigs outside the home, but was still able to guard\keep her home. If a woman waits until her children are school age to work outside the home I believe she guards her home best and if she can still be available for them after they enter school she is on target. There are many things that can be done within the home like medical billing and such that might require some training and a PC, but the rewards will be great and the problems fewer than just taking up a job outside the home and putting the kids in the care of another. If a child is supposedly molded by the time they are 3-5 it would be best that it is Mom and Dad molding them and not the folks done at daycare that come and go regularly even if it is run by the church. My wife stayed home until my kids were in school and I am very glad that she did. No one could have come close to the job she did.

 

my,my, I'm sencing a little hostility here. Now play good boys and girls.

I wonder about Lydia, who was a seller of purple. Or, can't remember her name, who I think died, and people mourned, liik at the fine clothing item she made me and so on. These were women who worked. I wonder how they ever preformed God's 'mandatory responsiblity for women'? Ummm, makes me wonder.

Yes there are women who work and supply to us services we need. Are they all mothers of young children? Are they all christian women?

Now I've always been a stay home mom, as I said, but that does not mean I have never helped out finacially. I did a few years of babysitting for a mothre, who could ,make it on her husbands income, when I first started working for them he made $7.50 an hour. She was my best friend and neighbor, so I said I would sit for them, for less then average. Becasue I wanted to help her. Now these poeple are christians, but I can't get them in church. Something bad happened to him 8 or 9 years ago and won't go back. So not only id I love the children, I had stricter standards of what they watched, and so forth. I became their only bible teacher, and I also took them to church. When the boy asked what saved meant, she didn't know how to answer him , I got a childs tract and talked with him about salvation, and repenting. So as good as it is to have mom at home, they benefitted from having me a babysitter.

I believe staying home is a special calling, not everyone has the calling, it is a gift from God. Staying homeis vry good, and is to be desired, but for some it just won't work.

Some here may not have considered what some men make on a pay check. What is the grand total of your family income per year? Including anything you may earn babysitting, selling crafts, vegetables,yard sales, and husbands bonuses. How much do you need in a week to buy groceries for a family of how many?? Car insurance? Rent or house payment? Clothing? Homeschooling expenses? Now consider how many men make minnium wage. Minus taxes. Go ahead and figure it up. What do you think? Could you live the way you currently do on that? How would you raise a family of four on bring home of say $230. a week, knowing what it's like to live in your area, are groceries cheap ther, or expensive? How would you make that $230. feed your family, and pay bills, and other expensives?

Now ask the wife of that husband what's 'God's mandatory responsiblity for women'?

Lets see in my area, for something just livable(bedroooms will measure something like 9'x10', very small) you will pay $200. - $250. you may have to live in a trailor. water, $32.-$50.(if you have a washer), electric, $25.-$40.(lots more if you have an airconditioner), phone minnium $30. , gas, $75.(last winter it was cold, so my top bill was $125.), a minnium of $50.-$75. for food, for 4 people, no juice or fruit or freash vegatebles for your children, meats only on sale). Now add clothing, gas, car insurance, and you don't get medical insurance. Household necessities(you know soap, toothpaste and such), car repairs. The list could go on and on. Not every man is well educated, and can get a good decent job. Some incomes are below $15,00. a year, or $10,000. a year. I can remember living on less then $3,000. a year.
When my husband first went to 'public'work (anything not farm work) he made $3.15 an hour. My kids never had any new clothes till they were 9 and 10., one pair of shoes at a time. I had one paor of tennis shoes a year, so I had to take good care of them. I remember we went fishing once to get food for the kids, we ate after they were done, we didn't get much. I remember having boiled potaotes, and biscuits for supper.
I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Nor would I fault anyone for not wanting it. But I was young(16 when I married) had never worked, had no skills, and no education. And like I said, my mother in law had always stayed home(you should hear the stories of what they had, boy, I was blessed), and my husband told me before we married that he wanted me to stay home too. He wanted to take care of em and provide for me and not me provide for him. he wanted to take care of him,and our children. So I did. But I know now(what they would never tell me then) that my children suffered.

So what does that family do?

So before we go a judgeing what another woman should and should not do, we should fully consider what she may have to do. She is not to please us, but God, so if you are displeased with her, keep your mouth shut, instead of making her feel second rate. If shes doing it wrong, then let God tell her.

I'm sorry if someone doesn't like this post, it is not my aim to offend. Just saying we need t understand thinmgs we don't necessarily know about.

 

I agree with you Margie that is why I said personally finances shoukd be a cosideration. There are many jobs out there that a woman can do at night without having an eduacation. Cleaning offices, cashier, factory worker, Certified Nurses assistant are just a few. There are also jobs that women can do with minimal eduation as well such as CNA or Medical transcriptionist.
Maybe I am not seeing your point because I am financially stable. My husband and I both have decent incomes. I do not have to work, but since I do work I do not let it take position over my family. Not that any women in here do, but I have seen some that are like that.

 

Ya know, I'll take my son to the babysitters or to his class at church and he cries so hard for the first 3-5 minutes then he has an absolute blast being with other children and learning. Once I show my face again he runs up to me with a big smile on his face and tells me how much fun he had. Teachers have told me that he would ask about me and they would reassure him I would return for him very soon and he was fine with that.

Most kids will have the trouble with crying and missing the parent, quite often some children have a bit more difficult a time dealing with separation from the parent for a longer period of time. Does this mean the parent is in wrong for working outside the home? Absolutely not! What needs to take place is the caregiver along with the parent needs to work with each other in assuring the child and helping him or her to grasp who is mommy and that mommy will return but mommy needed to go to work and in the meantime mommy loves the child a great deal.

My mother had to watch my child in his earlier years quite a bit, he began to say daddy but he didn't say mommy so my mother worked with him by showing him my picture and saying mommy and telling him that was his mommy and before ya knew it he was calling me mommy.

Seems to me the grandmother of the situation needs to also work with the child a bit more to help understand and the kid will be fine.

karen

 

Problem is when you don't live around family to give the support yo are talking about. My gilrs see their grandparents onec every few months. There is no family near me.

 

Lorelei- I don't think it is the nurses or doctors that keep us alive. It is God and His will. A nurse can help with the medical stuff but your child needed you to hold her hand and make her feel loved.

There is working at home and working outside of the home. Sure go pick apples and bring your children with you. Do your family budget as your kids color. But don't leave your children with someone else so you can do more. There is a difference! A BIG difference!

Saved4Life- I sent you a private message. I am so glad you are saved and so sad by your situation. I only wish you had more security in your marriage.

Who is the stay at home dad? That just makes my stomache turn. Sorry but your children have no idea about the roles God have layed out in His word! Will your daughters look for someone who cooks and your sons for a provider?

Well, the kids need me (and I am here.) ~JD

 

This is the same doctrine to which the Christain Scientist hold. About a dozen years back I heard about a child whose parents were CS. The child died of a bowel obstruction because the parents were so convinced that God and God alone would heal their child. A simple enema would have saved that boy's life. The parents are still in jail.

Then please enlighten us WITH SCRIPTURE AND NOT JUST OPINION. Just because you say it is so, does not make it so. This is the same additions to scripture by which cults are made. If you can not back it with God's Word,then it is not necessarily the Word of God.

[ April 27, 2002, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

That's right I forgot the main role is for the husband to go to work and be the mighty provider and come home prop his feet up and kick back while mamma does the raising and the house work...ugh please!!! I don't agree with this way of how a supposed household is to work...I believe all parties in a home should be responsible for making the home function properly and this also means the husband's ability to cook and clean and raise children as well as the wife's ability to go out and work too...which ever way it works out best for your house is fine.

My husband works for himself, he's not making nearly enough to even pay our rent this means I MUST I have no other choice but to go for a full time job with benifits because he has no benifits at all and if we get sick we have some serious bills to pay. This is not a thing done out of wanting material things, this is being done out of a need for bills being paid and food being on the table.

Ya know, you don't have to have family around to be able to watch your children, there are good day care centers out there which really take excellent care of children and who put forth amazing efforts to love and care for them for the hours you are gone.

karen

 

That would be me, and what exactly is it that makes your stomach turn?

What problems would it cause if I were to have a daughter and she sought someone who cooked? Why should it be a concern that my son might want a wife with a a career that she cared about?

Joshua

 

Joshua...thank you very much, I personally love the idea of a man who is able to cook and a be a sensitive loving husband in this fashion. I've been the wife to come home from work and have a hot dinner on the table from my husband's hands. There is not a thing wrong with it....

btw. Joshua, how good a cook are you anyway

karen

 

I agree. I have not read through all 4 pages here, so I may be repeating, but here are some pertinent Scriptures:

1 Cor. 2:15 (ESV)
The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.

1 Cor. 6:12 (ESV)
"All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything.

Prov 31:10-31

This is really only a question in the west (we are so ethnocentric!) This question was raised in a seminary class I had. After some debate over the issue, a Kenyan student in the front row raised his hand and said "This is not an issue in my country. In Kenya, the women work from sun up to sundown along side or apart from the men in the field. Then when the sun goes down, they begin to work in the home!" A full day for a Christian woman indeed!

 

It is hard to make a case out of Lydia for we do not know if she was a widow or what, but we do know that she had a household, which may have consisted of her parents. Tough to equate her to a modern situation where no parents are available. A single Mom with no parents has to do what she has to do. Yes, a couple that just cannot make it has to do what they have to do though if you look at the cost of childcare, a second car and all the things that go with the mother working you may find that al you are doing is giving more flexibility to the cash flow but not really increasing the wealth factor of the family. Often if better thought had been taken before marriage the issues would not be there, but we marry by emotion and hormones more than anything else and there comes our problems. Hubby should have gotten more education before the wedding to get a better job or better consideration given as to where they would live if job prospects in the area are few. Maybe we should go back to the parents contracting the marriage. Parents have different concerns than hunkiness or babeness and would probably pick a better mate then we select.

Staying at home is a calling or gift? I would like to see that in Scripture. A woman is to be a fitting help to her mate. Scripture gives her primary proctection of the home. IF that can be done properly by the woman working outside the home, well and good. If not, she needs to do what will best protect that home and her children.

If we did a study, most women are not working outside the home because of financial need if we they were willing to be content with food and rainment as the Scripture encourages. Yes, we have become accustomed to many modern goodies and they have basically enslaved us as we cannot do with out plumbing and electricity and they are leased but never owned. That puts our income needs up a bit more than just food and clothes, but the principle is basic needs. Did you ever wonder why housing was not included in that formula of contentment?

Basic shelter could be a trailer, but most of us are wanting a far more costly house than that. My Amish friends still survive without many of the things we could not live without and they have plenty of money though the wife stays home with the seven or more children. Maybe they are smarter than we have thought.

Basic transportation can be a S-10 pickup not a Ram or a Cavalier not a Cadillac. It can be two years old when we buy it and keep it for 5 or more years versus buying one every two.

Basic food could be Asian like fish and rice or Southron pinto beans and corn bread. No fast food, which is high in cost in funds as well as health risks and no fancy resturants.

Our lifestyle choices create most of our financial needs. IF a person can be content with basics and see their children and mates as their greatest treasure they will sacrifice the stuff that rusts so that they can put most of their time in God's gift and inheritance. It can be done even in this society, but it may mean some tough choices, career and geography changes, tightening the belt or whatever.

The main question as a woman to ask is why do I need to work outside the home? Do I really need the money or am I not satisfied with the role God gave me? Can I use my ingenuity to create an income without going corporate and dealing with all the hoo ha the corporate world consists of as well as avoiding the various temptations that come in the workplace?

As to husbands doing dishes or cooking, I have no problem with that nor do I see it as being effeminate. Depending on the husband's job, he may just be crawling home and crashing on the floor or chair and thus not be physically wiling to do to those things. Some of us still do hard manual labor. If it is a macho thing on hispart then he needs to get over that nonsense. I have no problems with a nuturing father since God is one of those.

Our modern lifestyle and role choices have not produced the quality of family life that most of us remember or our parents remembered. There is something wrong. Maybe it is time to resurrect Ozzie and Harriet. Maybe we have bought into a pack of lies and should dump them. I cannot count the times I have heard women in the workplace talk about finding a good man that would take them out of the workplace. Gee, that is rather Neanderthal thinking and many of those women are not Christian. Instead of seeing the home as a last resort or a curse maybe women should start seeing it as a haven and a treasure house and focus their energies on the treasure and relish the joys of the haven. Shalom!

 

Karen, I bake from scratch more than I cook from scratch. Our son is still at the 3 food groups age (macaroni and cheese, peanut butter and jelly, and pizza); but I try to sneak in as much green stuff as I can.

I have trouble justifying the time involved in cooking from scratch when there are so many organic, preservative free, partially prepared meal options out there. Of course, I'm something of a hypocrite in this regard because there are plenty of great breads out there and I still prefer to bake mine from scratch.

Joshua

 

Joshua...see I don't even scratch so your a step ahead of me Betty Crocker and I have a really good relationship and ever so often a creative notch will pop up in my motherly/wifey instincts and I'll make a great meal without the instructions of "just add chicken or hamburger"

anyone want to join for dinner? hehe

karen

 

Would you please define what you mean by this statement. The woman's role is to be submissive to her husband as the church is submissive to Christ. Beyond that, how does this affect women in the working world?

I would add beyond that, that even if you are driving an S-10, you should probably have some money set aside somewhere for repair and maintainence bills. Otherwise, your vehicle is going to become a lawn ornament.

By the same token, if the child gets sick or badly injured, I would suggest that the family have VERY good insurance. It does not take very long for a hospital stay to run into a five or six digit bill. We are warned in Romans 14:8 to not let debts remain outstanding.

[ April 27, 2002, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

Chris noted Proverbs 31:10-31. Here's the link to that passage as it is extremely relevant to this conversation:

Proverbs 31:10 - 31

Notice that this is a woman with a husband and children.

[ April 27, 2002, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]