Women's role in the church

[Marcia]

I didn't say "with authority over men" you did. I simply said leadership roles. You seem to be a bit hung up on authority, who has it, who should have it - much more so then the New Testament writers I might add.

My point still holds even without your caveat. If women are to be silent and that is said without concern for a context and applies for all times then the Bible contradicts itself because we know this was not the case. Therefore there must be some context to be concern ourselves with when interpreting that passage.

The characteristics for an elder are listed in Timothy and there is much debate if that should confined to then or applied to now. I would say confined to then considering all the other "local specific" context established previously with application for today - these are the type of individuals we should be looking for.

Okay, leadership roles in the church?

 

[Jim1999]

I grew up in chauvenist England where women cooked the meal, served the meal and cleaned up after the meal. They didn't even join the family at the table.

It was this type of chauvenism that some would like to read into the Bible and read it from the Bible they do.

In a lot of cases to-day, if it wasn't for the female leaders in the church it would fall apart. The culture of New Testament times was similar to what we see in the Muslim culture and frankly I don't see that as pleasing to God, at least not the God I serve. Hence, I look for other understandings of some of these verses that seem to lean toward this chauvenism, and find release in the cultural context, which fits quite well.

You can lay the women low and into second class citizenship if you wish, but I happen to admire and respect women, and I am pleased to learn from them.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Marcia]

I grew up in chauvenist England where women cooked the meal, served the meal and cleaned up after the meal. They didn't even join the family at the table.

It was this type of chauvenism that some would like to read into the Bible and read it from the Bible they do.

In a lot of cases to-day, if it wasn't for the female leaders in the church it would fall apart. The culture of New Testament times was similar to what we see in the Muslim culture and frankly I don't see that as pleasing to God, at least not the God I serve. Hence, I look for other understandings of some of these verses that seem to lean toward this chauvenism, and find release in the cultural context, which fits quite well.

You can lay the women low and into second class citizenship if you wish, but I happen to admire and respect women, and I am pleased to learn from them.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim, no one is putting women in 2nd class citizenship!!

Women have many roles and many ways of serving God in the church. I am also against keeping women in a niche smaller than it should be, or keeping them from serving in ways that the Bible allows.

The roles laid out in the NT for women does not put women down nor does it make them 2nd class citizens. I see no need for women to be pastors to be able to be "full citizens," so to speak. I think scripture is clear on this. Having been a strong feminist before becoming a believer in Christ, I had to check this out for myself. My feminist tendencies were still very strong after believing.

 

[Jerome]

Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

"This text, whatever may be its other value, is mainly of importance, because it indicates three tests of a genuine, God-sent leader. In the first place he speaks the word of God, in the second place his faith is fixed on a personal Saviour; and, in the thrid place, his life conforms to the Word of God and to the faith in Christ, and ends in a glorious immortality. Wherever we find those three indications meeting in any man or woman, we may recognize the heaven-sent leader, and it is at our peril if we do not follow such leadership."
---A.T. Pierson preaching at the Metropolitan Tabernacle, 1892.

What would Vision Forum and the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood think?:laugh:

 

[Marcia]

Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

"This text, whatever may be its other value, is mainly of importance, because it indicates three tests of a genuine, God-sent leader. In the first place he speaks the word of God, in the second place his faith is fixed on a personal Saviour; and, in the thrid place, his life conforms to the Word of God and to the faith in Christ, and ends in a glorious immortality. Wherever we find those three indications meeting in any man or woman, we may recognize the heaven-sent leader, and it is at our peril if we do not follow such leadership."
---A.T. Pierson preaching at the Metropolitan Tabernacle, 1892.

What would Vision Forum and the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood think?:laugh:

Vision Forum and the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood are 2 very different groups.

Vision Forum is going too far in what they say about women.

 

[Jerome]

I am glad to hear that COBMAW shares Pierson's biblical understanding of leadership rather than VF's reactionary nonsense.

 

[go2church]

Phoebe was a deacon, Priscilla as a teacher and Lydia

 

[annsni]

I grew up in chauvenist England where women cooked the meal, served the meal and cleaned up after the meal. They didn't even join the family at the table.

It was this type of chauvenism that some would like to read into the Bible and read it from the Bible they do.

In a lot of cases to-day, if it wasn't for the female leaders in the church it would fall apart. The culture of New Testament times was similar to what we see in the Muslim culture and frankly I don't see that as pleasing to God, at least not the God I serve. Hence, I look for other understandings of some of these verses that seem to lean toward this chauvenism, and find release in the cultural context, which fits quite well.

You can lay the women low and into second class citizenship if you wish, but I happen to admire and respect women, and I am pleased to learn from them.

Cheers,

Jim

My church has over 40 people on staff and more than half of those are women. They do counseling, administrative work, accounting, media, teaching, organizing and such. They certainly are not second class citizens in the least and you're correct in saying that the church would fold if it wasn't for them. But none of the women are working outside the guidelines of Scripture in being in authority or teaching men. If you came to our church any given workday or Sunday, you'd not notice that women are laid low or subject to chauvenism. You'd just see a smoothly working machine (most of the time) with men and women working well together. It's a wonderful thing!

 

[Marcia]

Phoebe was a deacon, Priscilla as a teacher and Lydia

Being a deacon is not a leadership role; this was a role in which one served.

There is not enough evidence to call Priscilla a teacher. Nor did she have a leadership role. And she only worked with her husband. The only times she is mentioned is with her husband, and there is only one verse (Acts 18.26) which mentions her doing any "teaching." This was probably not teaching so much as correcting and it was just with one person.

One verse does not a theological principle make. So I don't see how anyone can use either of these examples to say the NT is okay with women in leadership roles in the church over men.

Why do you bring up Lydia? She invited Paul and the others to stay in her home. This is hardly being a leader.

 

[TCGreek]

Beth Moore is practically the face of SBC.

 

[Marcia]

Beth Moore is practically the face of SBC.

And she should not be teaching men, nor for that matter, women. I think she's a very emotinally based teacher. She has endorsed some things I do not think are biblical.

 

[mcdirector]

And she should not be teaching men, nor for that matter, women. I think she's a very emotinally based teacher. She has endorsed some things I do not think are biblical.

She should not be teaching men. I think that her ministry headed down that path as I remember seeing men in sessions on some videos AND then all the sudden there were no more men in them. Some one saw the error in the video taping but I imagine it's still going on.

I do not read or listen to all of her products, but as Media Center Director, I have to deal with some. Some of her material is good. I have found some to be a stretch in biblical soundness to perhaps fill 10 or 13 weeks worth of material. I have found some individual lessons within otherwise good material to be a stretch, so I'm not ready to dismiss her overall value.

I do find TC's comment disturbing because I think it's true! How has one woman (or any person) been raised to this level?

 

[Marcia]

Beth Moore has endorsed some word-faith ideas and some terrible spiritual warfare teachings. She is also on the "Be Still" DVD which promotes that contemplative meditation we were talking about on another thread. I've written on that DVD, btw:
http://www.christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_BeStillDVD.html

Concerns about Beth Moore were raised by a pastor I know several years ago. His wife had been using Moore's materials in a bible study and had come across some things that bothered here, so she showed him to her husband. He found some things he thought were problematic.

Here's more info (this is not written by the pastor I know but someone else):
About three years ago I reviewed a 10-session DVD series by Moore titled,

“Believing God.” What I saw in that series was enough for me to alert my pastor to pull if from our library shelf. In that DVD series I found Moore to lack understanding of basic hermeneutical principles as she either had no clue what a passage said or else twisted the Scripture to suit her needs. Moore very often claimed direct revelation from God and discussed much about her personal conversations with Him. (I found that to be very disconcerting.) Some of her teachings were very similar to the heresy promoted by the Word of Faith crowd, which is downright scary! Beth employed a lot of pop-psychology ideas, including the whole “self esteem” model. Additionally, Moore promoted the very unbiblical model of spiritual warfare promoted by the likes of Neil Anderson and “deliverance“ ministries. She also teaches the unbiblical nonsense of generational bondage promoted so much by the spiritual warfare guys and the ever-popular, but aberrational, Bill Gothard

Source: http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2007/12/beth-moores-bad-teachings.html

Several women I know in various ministries all agree that there is little discernment when it comes to teaching for women or women teachers. Just look at Joyce Meyer as a good example of that! I've run into so many women who like her despite her unbiblical teachings. They think she understands them and they connect to her emotionally. That seems to be all that counts for them.

 

[mcdirector]

Oh good heavens Marcia! Thank goodness I don't have that one one the shelf!

I'll have to watch that Believing God series now and make a decision on it.

Her materials FLY off the shelf. If Beth Moore says it, in the mind of many it is gospel and that alone is enough to raise a red flag. NNE person should have that much authority. Everyone should be a student of the word and question and research and read and research some more.

Thanks for the info.

edited to add: I was also surprised to see Calvin Miller's name in your article - another big name in SBC author circles and a frequent contributor to SBC Life.

 

[Marcia]

Oh good heavens Marcia! Thank goodness I don't have that one one the shelf!

I'll have to watch that Believing God series now and make a decision on it.

Her materials FLY off the shelf. If Beth Moore says it, in the mind of many it is gospel and that alone is enough to raise a red flag. NNE person should have that much authority. Everyone should be a student of the word and question and research and read and research some more.

Thanks for the info.

Good, watch out for it! I've heard others have strong reservations about that particular study. I was strongly challenged once for merely mentioning that Beth Moore is on that Be Still DVD when I gave a talk 2 years ago in St. Louis. You would have thought I was against the Bible or something.

It's sad that people are so loyal to a person that they won't consider that the person could be wrong.

edited to add: I was also surprised to see Calvin Miller's name in your article - another big name in SBC author circles and a frequent contributor to SBC Life

Yes, he's on that DVD. I have the transcript to the DVD as well as the DVD, so I used the transcript when writing. He says that Francis de Sales is his favorite "saint." This is in a portion where several people on the DVD discuss their favorite "saint" (they are all Catholic saints). Francis de Sales was a counter-reformation Jesuit who was sent to Switzerland to try to get the Calvinists to go back to the Catholic Church. He also likes and talks about Teresa of Avila. This is one of the influences of this movement - an adoration of Catholic saints, mysticism, and all things Catholic. Ironic coming from a Baptist, I would say.

It just goes to show that intelligence has nothing to do with deception.

This is another issue I am seeing: it's as though the Reformation never happened the way this adoration of Catholic saints and mystics is seeping into the church. People are forgetting there are huge differences in Catholic theology and non-Catholic theology.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I ask this question out of curiosity ... has anyone on this thread read:

The Preaching Life
Barbara Brown Taylor
Cowley Publications, 1993

 

[gb93433]

The historical critical method has pretty much influenced us to consider only the original context and culture. But can one prove that the text was only meant to apply to the original receptors?

So you would not believe that Revelation was meant for the immediate readers and its future readers.

So Isaiah meant nothing in regards to the coming of Christ and messianic prohecy?

 

[Marcia]

I ask this question out of curiosity ... has anyone on this thread read:

The Preaching Life
Barbara Brown Taylor
Cowley Publications, 1993

No, I haven't. I'm curious as to why you are asking about it thought.

 

[gb93433]

And she should not be teaching men, nor for that matter, women. I think she's a very emotinally based teacher. She has endorsed some things I do not think are biblical.

Her books sell and the SBC leaders like that.

 

[Marcia]

Her books sell and the SBC leaders like that.

Yes, sadly, I'm afraid you are right. We do have "untouchable" people in the church.