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Wondering Why?
- Thread starter Wes Outwest
- Start date
Wes Outwest
New Member
You are hung up on this one issue, and it is but one thread in a tapestry. Step back and look at the whole picture.
I Agree that scripture tells us that no one in their natural state can save themselves. Jesus even says so when he tells us that it is the spirit what quickens the flesh, and that the flesh has nothing to offer. It is only when one's spirit becomes changed that one's flesh becomes a support vehicle for the spirit.
Now everyone good or evil has the same make up. and those who succeed and make great things such as tall skyscrapers etc., do not do so because the flesh does it, they do so because the spirit does it. It is the spirit of man that God seeks to transform and it is only through man's belief, which comes from hearing that man is able to be transformed.
God the son said, Whosoever believeth, meaning will believe AND does believe, in Him won't die the second death, but will instead have everlasting life (Salvation from the second death).
It is clear that God established human FAITH in God as the criteria for salvation.
He established that it is human "HEARING of the Word of God" that causes the human spirit to have faith in God, thus making the human with faith acceptable to God!
Don't confuse the issue with your clouded Calvinist doctrine!
It is by man's FAITH ALONE that God Saves man.
Ray Berrian
New Member
rc,
You said, [quote[ ‘God is showing the wicked love by just letting them live past the first heart beat of their lives. [/quote]
Your concept of love is taken from the erratic concept as we see love around us. A man gets married and is in love and in two years does not love that woman any more.
You think, God has enough love to let the non-elect live out their physical lives in sin, but His love does not extend enough to secure the possibility of belief in Jesus. This is not any better quality of love than we see in human beings.
This being said, if you will study the Attribute of God’s love toward human beings, it is an infinite love that sees the sin but best of all notices the eternal value of the soul of all persons. His love is as strong or potent for one sinner as the next and that love will continue until the Great White Throne Judgment when the ‘ax will fall’ and His wrath will appear red hot.
You said, [quote[ ‘God is showing the wicked love by just letting them live past the first heart beat of their lives. [/quote]
Your concept of love is taken from the erratic concept as we see love around us. A man gets married and is in love and in two years does not love that woman any more.
You think, God has enough love to let the non-elect live out their physical lives in sin, but His love does not extend enough to secure the possibility of belief in Jesus. This is not any better quality of love than we see in human beings.
This being said, if you will study the Attribute of God’s love toward human beings, it is an infinite love that sees the sin but best of all notices the eternal value of the soul of all persons. His love is as strong or potent for one sinner as the next and that love will continue until the Great White Throne Judgment when the ‘ax will fall’ and His wrath will appear red hot.
It is by man's FAITH ALONE that God Saves man.
Wrong .... Salvation is OF THE LORD !
You contradict scripture over and over again with your commentary... Still can't find an inductive word for word VERSE not babel that says man has the ability to choose... can't find it Wes.. give up!
Wrong .... Salvation is OF THE LORD !
You contradict scripture over and over again with your commentary... Still can't find an inductive word for word VERSE not babel that says man has the ability to choose... can't find it Wes.. give up!
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi rc;
No one would believe what you say anyway
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Doesn't do any good to show you anything rc. If Christ told you Him Self personally you wouldn't believe Him. It's because your blind to the gospel, Your blind to the truth, Blind, just plain blind.
No one would believe what you say anyway
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Ray Berrian
New Member
rc,
Wes and I know salvation is of the Lord alone. He paid the debt and we cannot lift ourselves up toward Heaven by our own, bootstraps.
The Prophet Habakkuk says, ‘Yet I will rejoice in the Lord, I will joy in the God of my salvation,’ [3:18] and yet he says also in 2:4 that ‘ . . . the just shall live by faith.’
Romans 5:1 does not say, ‘Therefore, being justified by His faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.’ Drop the word, ‘His’ and you will be on the road to Biblical and Christian theology.
While salvation is totally from God, He demands our response to His plan. [Acts 17:30b] If church people are depending on Him to pick them out for everlasting life, they probably have never been ‘born again.’ Our action of faith is a light that will burn to the perfect day above.
God will judge all of us as to whether we think we have contributed to His experience of salvation. Some people who think that they have had no imput into their being saved, does not necessarily exempt them from having pride. It also may mean that they have a head knowledge of Christ, but might not ever have really and totally believed in Jesus Christ for the blessed hope. Having no initial trust in Jesus may mean the inner heart experience toward the Lord has never truly happened. The Lord will be the Judge. [John 5:22b]
Wes and I know salvation is of the Lord alone. He paid the debt and we cannot lift ourselves up toward Heaven by our own, bootstraps.
The Prophet Habakkuk says, ‘Yet I will rejoice in the Lord, I will joy in the God of my salvation,’ [3:18] and yet he says also in 2:4 that ‘ . . . the just shall live by faith.’
Romans 5:1 does not say, ‘Therefore, being justified by His faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.’ Drop the word, ‘His’ and you will be on the road to Biblical and Christian theology.
While salvation is totally from God, He demands our response to His plan. [Acts 17:30b] If church people are depending on Him to pick them out for everlasting life, they probably have never been ‘born again.’ Our action of faith is a light that will burn to the perfect day above.
God will judge all of us as to whether we think we have contributed to His experience of salvation. Some people who think that they have had no imput into their being saved, does not necessarily exempt them from having pride. It also may mean that they have a head knowledge of Christ, but might not ever have really and totally believed in Jesus Christ for the blessed hope. Having no initial trust in Jesus may mean the inner heart experience toward the Lord has never truly happened. The Lord will be the Judge. [John 5:22b]
Wes Outwest
New Member
You are absolutely Right, SALVATION is OF THE LORD! And HE saves ONLY those who have human faith IN HIM!
Wes Outwest
New Member
You see the Old Testament says Life is through faith! and Yes it is the Lord who saves...those who have faith!
As for dropping a word from scripture, I can't do that because scripture is ABSOLUTE! Don't you remember?
Ray Berrian
New Member
Wes,
I was saying that the Calvinists insert the word, 'His' in Romans 5:1. It does not say, 'Therefore, the just shall live by His faith.' The words of God are: 'Therefore, the just shall live by faith.'
They insert 'His' and we leave the Word of God as it is written through the Apostle Paul.
I was saying that the Calvinists insert the word, 'His' in Romans 5:1. It does not say, 'Therefore, the just shall live by His faith.' The words of God are: 'Therefore, the just shall live by faith.'
They insert 'His' and we leave the Word of God as it is written through the Apostle Paul.
Wes Outwest
New Member
Of course you're right Ray, I was simply pointing out to the one (not you) who claims that taking from or conversely adding to scripture is not possible because as he claims Scripture is Absolute.
Wes Outwest
New Member
rc, You simply cannot prove your point and you will not listen to reason. You mind is made up and you are teaching falsehood!
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi RC:
Aren't you repeating your self here I believe I read this same statement on a different thread.
Remember Josiah?
2Ch 34:3 For in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father: and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images.
Your excuse for these verses won't float. You claim Paul said No one seeks God. This is all inclusive.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Aren't you repeating your self here I believe I read this same statement on a different thread.
2Ch 20:4 And Judah gathered themselves together, to ask help of the LORD: even out of all the cities of Judah they came to seek the LORD .
Remember Josiah?
2Ch 34:3 For in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father: and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images.
Your excuse for these verses won't float. You claim Paul said No one seeks God. This is all inclusive.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Ray Berrian
New Member
ILUVLIGHT,
II Chronicles 34:3 does not need explanation. This is an excellent verse that shows that even the lost can consider the things of Christ or in Josiah's time, Jehovah Lord.
'For in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, HE BEGAN TO SEEK AFTER THE GOD OF DAVID, his father: and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images.'
II Chronicles 34:3 does not need explanation. This is an excellent verse that shows that even the lost can consider the things of Christ or in Josiah's time, Jehovah Lord.
'For in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, HE BEGAN TO SEEK AFTER THE GOD OF DAVID, his father: and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images.'
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Ray;
I would chanlenge any Calvinist who states that man doesn't seek God to just type the word seek in to there Bible program then read all those verses that come up. The words (seeking God) works well too;
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
I would chanlenge any Calvinist who states that man doesn't seek God to just type the word seek in to there Bible program then read all those verses that come up. The words (seeking God) works well too;
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
You guys are losing my respect quickly... Do a word search? How sophmorish is that? Wow! Why didn't I think of that? How bout getting something serious if you want to study a serious book? Get a complex string search engine and search for seek/choose etc and add with your search infinitive WITH active AND aorist (if you can search the septuagent) you'll find alot.. YOU don't seem to understand that THESE DON'T mean anything to the arguement! Geese, it's like trying to teach my daughter! Are you that stiff necked that you won't learn something? This is 5th grade grammer... will you please reply that you read this and understand this grammer lesson?
Do you think I'm making this up? Go to your elementary school and ask any teacher, they'll be glad to tell you the same thing.
Then buy a serious software program and search for seek/choose in the imperative... you'll get NOTHING, ZIPPO ... until you kids decide to answer me with an imperative, I'll be praying that you drop your childish arguing and study grammer like a man so you can answer like one.
Do you think I'm making this up? Go to your elementary school and ask any teacher, they'll be glad to tell you the same thing.
Then buy a serious software program and search for seek/choose in the imperative... you'll get NOTHING, ZIPPO ... until you kids decide to answer me with an imperative, I'll be praying that you drop your childish arguing and study grammer like a man so you can answer like one.
Wes Outwest
New Member
Well, let me tell you what a tragedy losing your respect would be! 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ! (ZEROs)
The ONUS is on you to prove your point, not on US to support your position!
The ONUS is on you to prove your point, not on US to support your position!
Ray Berrian
New Member
If a sinner is going to 'Enter at the straight gate' the Lord is not doing it for the sinner, the lost one is taking responsibility for his or her destiny. [Matthew 7:13]
In Matthew 8:10 God did not inject or implant faith in the 'centurion.' Jesus said to those in His onterage, 'Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.'
The centurion had great faith in Jesus perhaps from hearing or seeing His other miracles. Something in him prompted a believing trust in this miracle worker.
Jesus found the faith in this leader of military men.
Berrian, Th.D.
In Matthew 8:10 God did not inject or implant faith in the 'centurion.' Jesus said to those in His onterage, 'Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.'
The centurion had great faith in Jesus perhaps from hearing or seeing His other miracles. Something in him prompted a believing trust in this miracle worker.
Jesus found the faith in this leader of military men.
Berrian, Th.D.
First of all Ray this is another pathetic narrative (so now I am puking) ...
This again proves nothing but is just relaying facts...
Something in him prompted a believing trust in this miracle worker.... Yeh... it's called regeneration of the Holy Spirit so he would be ABLE to do it.
This again proves nothing but is just relaying facts...
Something in him prompted a believing trust in this miracle worker.... Yeh... it's called regeneration of the Holy Spirit so he would be ABLE to do it.
Wes Outwest
New Member
rc, you'd be wrong again!
Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God!
Coming to faith is regeneration, it is the change from not believing to believing. From being one way to being a new different way.
From being old sinner to new repenter!
This is easy, Sunday school stuff! The children I teach understand it clearly, why can't you?
Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God!
Coming to faith is regeneration, it is the change from not believing to believing. From being one way to being a new different way.
From being old sinner to new repenter!
This is easy, Sunday school stuff! The children I teach understand it clearly, why can't you?