-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
wooing of the Holy Spirit is it biblical?
- Thread starter massdak
- Start date
I looked up these 8 places where the word "helkuo" (#1670)is used - the word used for draw in John 6:44. It sure doesn't seem like wooing to me.
James 2:6 ESV
But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?
John 6:44 ESV
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 12:32 ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
John 18:10 ESV
Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant and cut off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.)
John 21:6
He said to them, "Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some." So they cast it, and now they were not able to haul it in, because of the quantity of fish.
John 21:11
So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, 153 of them. And although there were so many, the net was not torn.
Acts 16:19
But when her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers.
Acts 21:30
Then all the city was stirred up, and the people ran together. They seized Paul and dragged him out of the temple, and at once the gates were shut.
In His Grace
KayDee
James 2:6 ESV
But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?
John 6:44 ESV
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 12:32 ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
John 18:10 ESV
Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant and cut off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.)
John 21:6
He said to them, "Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some." So they cast it, and now they were not able to haul it in, because of the quantity of fish.
John 21:11
So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, 153 of them. And although there were so many, the net was not torn.
Acts 16:19
But when her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers.
Acts 21:30
Then all the city was stirred up, and the people ran together. They seized Paul and dragged him out of the temple, and at once the gates were shut.
In His Grace
KayDee
Y
Yelsew
Guest
The gravity associated with the Earth, draws the moon whose gravity is a mere 1/6th that of the earth. Gravity draws objects by an energy that we can measure, but do not yet understand.
Centrifigal force "draws" objects in the direction of the force.
In either case, we do not "see" the energy that does the "drawing", but we feel its effect.
To be drawn in spirit to Jesus, is something that we cannot see, but we certainly can feel its affect upon us. We know by the word that we receive who the source of the draw is, but we cannot see the actual energy that does the drawing.
Centrifigal force "draws" objects in the direction of the force.
In either case, we do not "see" the energy that does the "drawing", but we feel its effect.
To be drawn in spirit to Jesus, is something that we cannot see, but we certainly can feel its affect upon us. We know by the word that we receive who the source of the draw is, but we cannot see the actual energy that does the drawing.
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi everyone;
I feel you all are misinterpreting the term draw as given in Jn 6:44. I found this you might be intrested.
Joh 6:44 -
Draw (ἑλκύση)
Two words for drawing are found in the New Testament, σύρω and ἑλκύω. The distinction is not habitually observed, and the meanings often overlap. Σύρω is originally to drag or trail along, as a garment or torn slippers. Both words are used of haling to justice. (See Act_8:3; Act_17:6; Act_16:19) In Act_14:19, συ.ρω, of dragging Paul's senseless body out of the city at Lystra. In Joh_21:6, Joh_21:8, Joh_21:11, both words of drawing the net. In Joh_18:10, ἑλκύω, of drawing Peter's sword. One distinction, however, is observed: σύρω is never used of Christ's attraction of men. See Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32. Ἑλκύω occurs only once outside of John's writings (Act_16:19). Luther says on this passage: “The drawing is not like that of the executioner, who draws the thief up the ladder to the gallows; but it is a gracious allurement, such as that of the man whom everybody loves, and to whom everybody willingly goes.”
I feel you all are misinterpreting the term draw as given in Jn 6:44. I found this you might be intrested.
Joh 6:44 -
Draw (ἑλκύση)
Two words for drawing are found in the New Testament, σύρω and ἑλκύω. The distinction is not habitually observed, and the meanings often overlap. Σύρω is originally to drag or trail along, as a garment or torn slippers. Both words are used of haling to justice. (See Act_8:3; Act_17:6; Act_16:19) In Act_14:19, συ.ρω, of dragging Paul's senseless body out of the city at Lystra. In Joh_21:6, Joh_21:8, Joh_21:11, both words of drawing the net. In Joh_18:10, ἑλκύω, of drawing Peter's sword. One distinction, however, is observed: σύρω is never used of Christ's attraction of men. See Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32. Ἑλκύω occurs only once outside of John's writings (Act_16:19). Luther says on this passage: “The drawing is not like that of the executioner, who draws the thief up the ladder to the gallows; but it is a gracious allurement, such as that of the man whom everybody loves, and to whom everybody willingly goes.”
Meaning you had a will? </font>[/QUOTE]yes i have a will a free will but my free will is condioned on the freedom allowed by my sin nature, it seems that a person is not wanting much to do with God unless he shows us our need, He draws us and gives us understanding of the gospel. drawing is not wooing do you agree?
The verses I quoted in my first post of this thread are where draw - # 1670 helkuo and helko (sorry I don't have the ability to write them in Greek) are used. As you can see, the word is used outside of John more than once and the context of the verses shows more than a wooing. The other word you mentioned # 4951, suro, implies the use of violence. The Ref books I am using are Zodhiates, Word Study of the NT and Dictionary of the NT. Even he says helkuo does no necessarily have the notion of force as suro does. But no other place #1670 was used could be interpreted as wooing. So, I don't think we've been misinterpreting.
The question Massdak asked was what is the biblical support for wooing being the meaning of draw (#1670). Any ideas?
In His Grace
KayDee
another thought for this is, does God use spiritual persuasion in a very stealth manner to try to convince someone of the truth, if they are smart enough with some virtue to understand their need of Christ then they win the prize if the stubbornness of a persons sin leaves them still blind to the truth then it didn't work. this is the arminian view dont you think?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
What Calvinists fail to see is that you can interpret "draws" (helkuo) as to mean draw with a force and still be Arminian in doctrine. The "wooing" interpretation is a more "modern" means to try and explain this verse within the Arminian system, but its not the right one.
You must remember the context of this verse. Jesus is speaking to a group of hardened Jews who God has temporarily hardened in order to accomplish a purpose through them (John 12, Acts 28, Matt 13, Rom 9-11 etc). God selected 12 Jewish men to come to Jesus while he was on earth to learn from him as apostles. Not all Jews were given this ability, only those who were "drawn."
Look on down at these following verses:
Calvinists make the mistake of applying a passage that is meant to be understood within its context to a universal soteriology.
You must remember the context of this verse. Jesus is speaking to a group of hardened Jews who God has temporarily hardened in order to accomplish a purpose through them (John 12, Acts 28, Matt 13, Rom 9-11 etc). God selected 12 Jewish men to come to Jesus while he was on earth to learn from him as apostles. Not all Jews were given this ability, only those who were "drawn."
Look on down at these following verses:
Calvinists take these words to mean that Jesus knew who was elect and who was non-elect, but that is not the context. He is simply explaining that Jesus knew who the Father had given him to be his apostles and who was going to remain hardened. In the next verse Jesus even looks at the twelve and says, "Have I not chosen you the twelve."
Calvinists make the mistake of applying a passage that is meant to be understood within its context to a universal soteriology.
AllOfGrace
New Member
Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, KayDee has provided some very important evidence.
The word for "draw" used by Christ in John 6:44 is the same as is used for dragging in fishing nets in John 21:6. Also, from the other contexts, it is easy to see that the meaning is to pull in by (irresistible) force.
As a side note, I cannot imagine that any of those fish were willing to come to the boat!
Another interesting study would be to look up the word for man's inability in John 6:44 - it is the Greek word from which we get our word dynamite
- truly it expresses that no man has the power to come to God, but God has the power to draw whom He chooses!
The word for "draw" used by Christ in John 6:44 is the same as is used for dragging in fishing nets in John 21:6. Also, from the other contexts, it is easy to see that the meaning is to pull in by (irresistible) force.
As a side note, I cannot imagine that any of those fish were willing to come to the boat!
Another interesting study would be to look up the word for man's inability in John 6:44 - it is the Greek word from which we get our word dynamite
- truly it expresses that no man has the power to come to God, but God has the power to draw whom He chooses!
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Jhn 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
i am pretty sure the arminians believe when verse 65 is used that they believe that this given gift is by some rejected. i would like to see scripture that shows when God has drawn man to understand that he can or will refuse Gods drawing of them to believe.
Jhn 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
i am pretty sure the arminians believe when verse 65 is used that they believe that this given gift is by some rejected. i would like to see scripture that shows when God has drawn man to understand that he can or will refuse Gods drawing of them to believe.
the drawing of the father is due to our returning love for him.
we desire to please him by becoming "good".
that is due to the law that is written on our hearts convicting us of sin.
it in turn convicts us of failing to follow Gods holy law...and need of a propitiator.
which draws us towards the solution.
Christ who has been "lifted up".
massdak, your point is brought up at the cross. some cant die to their self will and be baptised into the death of Jesus. simply stated those who cant submit to Gods sovereignty.
their desire is to be equal with God. they refuse to submit to the death of their carnal spirit.
we desire to please him by becoming "good".
that is due to the law that is written on our hearts convicting us of sin.
it in turn convicts us of failing to follow Gods holy law...and need of a propitiator.
which draws us towards the solution.
Christ who has been "lifted up".
massdak, your point is brought up at the cross. some cant die to their self will and be baptised into the death of Jesus. simply stated those who cant submit to Gods sovereignty.
their desire is to be equal with God. they refuse to submit to the death of their carnal spirit.
i am still curious where the biblical support of this wooing and if a person is given the choice between truth and not then how is the rejection if a persons heart is still in darkness whereas another persons heart is able to believe. if a person has been shown some light and then has a choice is this done equally with each person?
