wooing of the Holy Spirit is it biblical?

[massdak]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
And I'm still curious to your response to my post on the first page.

Calvinists take these words to mean that Jesus knew who was elect and who was non-elect, but that is not the context. He is simply explaining that Jesus knew who the Father had given him to be his apostles and who was going to remain hardened. In the next verse Jesus even looks at the twelve and says, "Have I not chosen you the twelve."

Calvinists make the mistake of applying a passage that is meant to be understood within its context to a universal soteriology.

the context shows that the Lord draws and has an elect that will be saved. for you to say this only pertained to the jews of that time would be like saying that all scripture is only for the time it was written in.

 

[Skandelon]

the context shows that the Lord draws and has an elect that will be saved.

What part of the context of John 6 leads you to believe that Jesus is speaking of the elect versus the non-elect instead of those of the Jews being hardened versus the twelve who were chosen to be his apostles?

for you to say this only pertained to the jews of that time would be like saying that all scripture is only for the time it was written in.

Are you saying that God is actively hardening Jews today in the same manner he was then?

You assume that Jesus' audience of John 6 couldn't believe in Him because they were born totally depraved and they weren't "elect", but that is not the explaination John gives. He clearly explains that the reason the Jews couldn't believe was because they were being judicially and temporarily hardened. (John 12, Romans 9-11, Acts 28, Matt. 13 etc)

 

[Skandelon]

for you to say this only pertained to the jews of that time would be like saying that all scripture is only for the time it was written in.

Do you believe that when Jesus told the apostles that they would perform greater miracles than even He himself did that it would pertain to everyone who followed Jesus? Of course not.

A key principle of hermenutics is to understand the context, which means you must know the audience and the circumstances they are in. Otherwise, you make the mistake of applying passages such as John 6 to a doctrine for the nature of all men. All men aren't like the Jews of the first century during the time of Christ. The Jews of that time were being HARDENED, just like pharoah, as Paul clearly explains in Romans 9.

Do a word study on "hardening" and you will see what I mean.

 

[massdak]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />for you to say this only pertained to the jews of that time would be like saying that all scripture is only for the time it was written in.

Do you believe that when Jesus told the apostles that they would perform greater miracles than even He himself did that it would pertain to everyone who followed Jesus? Of course not.

A key principle of hermenutics is to understand the context, which means you must know the audience and the circumstances they are in. Otherwise, you make the mistake of applying passages such as John 6 to a doctrine for the nature of all men. All men aren't like the Jews of the first century during the time of Christ. The Jews of that time were being HARDENED, just like pharoah, as Paul clearly explains in Romans 9.

Do a word study on "hardening" and you will see what I mean. </font>[/QUOTE]first let us get back to your original contention and it seems you do not believe that God draws his elect as the example of scripture says in john 6 is that correct?

it does seem that the jews still seem to have the hardening effect even today, yes i do believe that.

and yes scripture does support that God draws people to Himself and He saves them. and i thank God that he intervenes with undeserving sinners so they can understand the gospel and believe.

in order for you to understand scripture you must believe that Christ saves wholly and a person is saved and kept by God not by mans obedience or human merit, if i am debating with you and you do not believe in eternal security then plainly i must tell you that i believe i am debating an unbeliever.

 

[massdak]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />for you to say this only pertained to the jews of that time would be like saying that all scripture is only for the time it was written in.

Do you believe that when Jesus told the apostles that they would perform greater miracles than even He himself did that it would pertain to everyone who followed Jesus? Of course not.

A key principle of hermenutics is to understand the context, which means you must know the audience and the circumstances they are in. Otherwise, you make the mistake of applying passages such as John 6 to a doctrine for the nature of all men. All men aren't like the Jews of the first century during the time of Christ. The Jews of that time were being HARDENED, just like pharoah, as Paul clearly explains in Romans 9.

Do a word study on "hardening" and you will see what I mean. </font>[/QUOTE]also it is interesting that you bring up rom 9
i reread it and you must of over looked what Gods purpose is.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 9:9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

Rom 9:10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;

Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by massdak:
if i am debating with you and you do not believe in eternal security then plainly i must tell you that i believe i am debating an unbeliever.

Oh, so one is not saved by grace through faith alone, but by grace through your doctrinal understanding alone. Interesting view.

 

[Skandelon]

also it is interesting that you bring up rom 9
i reread it and you must of over looked what Gods purpose is

I'm very fimiliar with Romans 9 thank you.

It is you are missing the purpose that God is clearly revealing through Paul in this chapter.

Calvinists make the mistake of thinking Paul is speaking about their "elect" versus the "non-elect" just as they do in John 6.

Paul is not talking about that at all in this chapter. He is speaking about Jews and Gentiles. Jews who are being hardened and the Genitles who were never seen as God's people are now believing the gospel. The Jews of that day would have cried, "THAT MAKES GOD UNJUST BECAUSE WE ARE ISRAEL, HIS CHOSEN NATION!" Paul answers this discourse by showing us that God can have mercy on whomever he wants, even dirty rotten Gentiles and he can harden whomever he wants, even the self righteous Jews.

You think the two groups Pauls is contrasting are those being saved, the elect, and those being condemned, the non-elect. That is not what it says!

It says, "18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens."

To be "hardened" does not necessarily mean they aren't going to be saved. If you read on into chapter 10 and 11 it is clear that these same Jews he is speaking of being hardened may be saved after being provoked to jealousy.

Moreover, God can show mercy to someone without them being saved. God shows mercy to all men, but not all men receive it. God showed mercy to all Gentiles by including them in the covenant of Grace but some refused it.