Words Hard to Translate

[Van]

I note that Van brought up the word "tongues" in his post. SNIP

Yes, words with baggage lead the reader to include the baggage in the message. Thus if a translation uses "tongues" when foreign languages is the meaning, an unintended message is sent, as the bogus angelic tongue might be inferred. Compare Acts 2:4 with Acts 2:6 in your English translation of choice.

Act 2:4 (NASB95)
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

The meaning of the Greek word translated "tongues" is "the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations."

Thus "foreign languages" best translates the meaning.

Act 2:6 (NASB95)
And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.

The meaning of the Greek word translated "language" is the "a language peculiar to any people."

Thus "native language" best translates the meaning.

By using these accurate word meanings, the message is presented with enhanced clarity and the bogus baggage is jettisoned.

 

[Bassoonery]

Good!
We were missionaries to Japan for 33 years under Baptist World Mission. We lived in Saitama Pref. while I studied the language for two years (Tokyo School of the Japanese language alumnus). Then we lived in Yokohama for 16 years, after which we moved to Asahikawa, Hokkaido, for the rest of our time there. We were involved in evangelism, church planting, teaching in Bible institutes, and working on a new translation of the Japanese NT. (The Shinkaiyaku is a good translation, but we wanted something that could be printed or otherwise used without permission.)

How interesting! My parents arrived in the late 80's but didn't stay as long as you! We were with OMF, so they did their language training at JLC. I was born in Sapporo but most of their work was in Aomori. I attended Chefoo just a few years before it closed, and a good number of my friends from those days have remained or returned as “second generation” missionaries.

 

[Bassoonery]

My thought is that normally a generic word for God is best. What must be avoided is a word that already has religious baggage (thus the Allah controversy). The translator must think: What will the reader be thinking about God when he or she reads this Bible?

Here, the missionaries did appropriate the local name for the supreme God, Pathian. I agree that it can be problematic if there is too much baggage, but these days traditional views of Pathian are confined to history classes (Salty has correctly found that the population is now predominantly Christian). The Christian Pathian is immanent and personal, whereas the traditional Pathian was remote and transcendent, having little to do with human affairs.

I’ve just gone back to check one of the first hymns composed by the missionaries, which was intended to be didactic.

“Isua” was in heaven,
He came down to earth!
He became like a human,
To save me;
I can see it in the “Baibul”,
How wonderful it is!

Jesus, Bible and Jehovah (in a later verse) are given phonetically without translation. The use of Pathian soon became more prevalent, and instead of Baibul the Bible is now called “Pathian Lehkhabu Thianghlim” – God’s Holy/Sacred Book. “Lalpa/Lal” is used for LORD which also meant Chief. Its usage has been extended to other types of monarchs too.

Mizo is a Tibeto-Burmese language. I remember reading old linguistic articles (Leach et al) that identified shared words with common origins in the Sino-Tibetan languages. Pathian may be one of those words which may have some distant relationship to your Chinese examples.

 

[Bassoonery]

Thus "foreign languages" best translates the meaning.

Thus "native language" best translates the meaning.

By using these accurate word meanings, the message is presented with enhanced clarity and the bogus baggage is jettisoned.

Language = Ṭawng in Mizo. The same word is used for the verb “speak”. I have no idea whether the similarity to “tongue” is coincidental or not!

Acts 2:4 has “they spoke in different/other languages”. It is a very plain translation but doesn’t quite specify foreignness as Van suggests. Ṭawng appears twice for “spoke” and “languages”

Acts 2:6: “their speaking was heard/understood by everyone as their own language”. Own language equates well to nativeness. Again Ṭawng appears twice for “speaking” and “language”.

 

[Yeshua1]

Believe it or not, in many languages the most problematic word to translate is θεός (theos), meaning God. There is a great controversy among translators into languages spoken by Muslim people groups as to whether or not "Allah" should be used. One of our MA students has started a new translation into Farsi, but says that Persian has a good word commonly used for God that is not "Allah." However, many other languages that are quite different from either Arabic or Persian use "Allah" for God. There are a lot of sources out there on this, so I'll not pontificate.

A discussion I know more about is the word used for God in Chinese and Japanese. The Japanese word is 神, with the onyomi (Chinese influenced reading) being shin, and the kunyomi (strictly Japanese reading) being kami. Fortunately, there is not much of a controversy about the right word in Japanese. Chinese, however, is a different matter. The controversy there is whether or not to use the generic word 神 (same as in Japanese, only pronounced shen), or to use the word for the original monotheistic God of China, 上帝 (Shang Di). You can actually buy copies of the main Chinese version, the Union Version, with the word for God being one or the other.

My thought is that normally a generic word for God is best. What must be avoided is a word that already has religious baggage (thus the Allah controversy). The translator must think: What will the reader be thinking about God when he or she reads this Bible?

Would think that the name of God should be translated as Yahweh!

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm about out of time, but feel free to post without me. Tomorrow I plan to post about the difficulties in translating θεοῦ υἱός, "son of God."

Hard to get into translation what is meant by that, as know Muslims and Mormons tend to see that as referring to Jesus being physically born from God!

 

[Van]

SNIP
Acts 2:4 has “they spoke in different/other languages”. It is a very plain translation but doesn’t quite specify foreignness as Van suggests. Ṭawng appears twice for “spoke” and “languages”

A language different from our native language is a "foreign" language.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I'll try to post about that tomorrow, but the short answer is, if this is true--They have got to be kidding!! "Goat of God" destroys the metaphor, which is based on OT truth.

I see what you did there. But how about exploring this a bit more fully. Jest what metaphor is being destroyed in a language that has no word for sheep in a culture that has no sheep?

This sort of thing highlights the problem with relying strictly on translation. The Bible is not just about words but about concepts, and spiritual truths are not easily conveyed in any case.

 

[37818]

Would think that the name of God should be translated as Yahweh!

That is not just a translation but a transliteration. A translation might be "Who Is" third person for "I AM." Or "the self Existent one." Or for Adoni, "the LORD."

 

[John of Japan]

How interesting! My parents arrived in the late 80's but didn't stay as long as you! We were with OMF, so they did their language training at JLC. I was born in Sapporo but most of their work was in Aomori. I attended Chefoo just a few years before it closed, and a good number of my friends from those days have remained or returned as “second generation” missionaries.

I never got to know the OMF folk, though I know I've met some. We were never in the same city. I'm sure we've trod some of the same ground, though. I've been to Sapporo many times. Did you live there for awhile as a child, then? My wife and I used to take a day off down there once in awhile for shopping and to go to an awesome "Omuraisu" restaurant.

Our son was a baby when we went to Japan in 1981, so he grew up there--still says he is from Yokohama. We home-schooled him, but he learned Japanese playing with the kids at the park. He went to college in the States then, where he earned the BA, MA, MDiv, and PhD. I have the great privilege of teaching together with him at a Bible college here in the States since 2014, when we retired from the field.

My parents applied to OMF when it was the China Inland Mission back in the late 1940's. They felt called to Tibet, and attended the training school, but the board said my Mom's health was not good enough to go. Also, that was just when CIM was having to leave China because of the Communist takeover. My wife and I recently read an awesome book about that in our devotions, China: The reluctant Exodus, by Phyllis Thompson.

 

[John of Japan]

I see what you did there. But how about exploring this a bit more fully. Jest what metaphor is being destroyed in a language that has no word for sheep in a culture that has no sheep?

This sort of thing highlights the problem with relying strictly on translation. The Bible is not just about words but about concepts, and spiritual truths are not easily conveyed in any case.

Good question. We actually discussed this in my Greek 102 class this morning.

Think about it. What does the metaphor "Lamb of God" represent? The truth that Jesus is our sacrifice for sin. If you call Him the "Kid Goat of God," the metaphor changes completely. (Remember the "scapegoat"?) Again, by translating "Kid Goat of God" where a people group does not have sheep, the translator is actually dumbing down the Bible, assuming that the target people are not intelligent enough to understand that there are animals they don't know about.

Here is an example of a 3rd world person who had never seen snow until he came to America. Years ago we had an African in our seminary. When it snowed one day, he went outside to see it, then excitedly texted his friends in Africa, "Snow really is absolutely white!" He was every bit as intelligent as any American white student--more so than most, probably! (By the way, we now have another young man in our seminary trained by this preacher. Discipleship in action!)

So, what possible strategies are there for the translator to get "Lamb of God" into the target language without dumbing it down? (1) Transliterate with an explanatory footnote. (2) Invent a new word or phrase (sheep = animal like a goat with very white wool).

What brought this up in my class this morning was that in his translation homework, one student translated peripatomen (περιπατῶμεν, present active subjunctive, 1st plu.) in 1 John 1:6-7 as "we live." I allowed that, because the metaphor there of "walk" for "live" is not as vital theologically as "Lamb of God." It might even be considered an idiom rather than a metaphor.

 

[John of Japan]

Here, the missionaries did appropriate the local name for the supreme God, Pathian. I agree that it can be problematic if there is too much baggage, but these days traditional views of Pathian are confined to history classes (Salty has correctly found that the population is now predominantly Christian). The Christian Pathian is immanent and personal, whereas the traditional Pathian was remote and transcendent, having little to do with human affairs.

I’ve just gone back to check one of the first hymns composed by the missionaries, which was intended to be didactic.

“Isua” was in heaven,
He came down to earth!
He became like a human,
To save me;
I can see it in the “Baibul”,
How wonderful it is!

Jesus, Bible and Jehovah (in a later verse) are given phonetically without translation. The use of Pathian soon became more prevalent, and instead of Baibul the Bible is now called “Pathian Lehkhabu Thianghlim” – God’s Holy/Sacred Book. “Lalpa/Lal” is used for LORD which also meant Chief. Its usage has been extended to other types of monarchs too.

Mizo is a Tibeto-Burmese language. I remember reading old linguistic articles (Leach et al) that identified shared words with common origins in the Sino-Tibetan languages. Pathian may be one of those words which may have some distant relationship to your Chinese examples.

Very helpful! If you don't mind, I'll use the information in that first paragraph in a lecture I give on translating θεός, "God."

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Good question. We actually discussed this in my Greek 102 class this morning.

Think about it. What does the metaphor "Lamb of God" represent? The truth that Jesus is our sacrifice for sin. If you call Him the "Kid Goat of God," the metaphor changes completely. (Remember the "scapegoat"?) Again, by translating "Kid Goat of God" where a people group does not have sheep, the translator is actually dumbing down the Bible, assuming that the target people are not intelligent enough to understand that there are animals they don't know about.

Here is an example of a 3rd world person who had never seen snow until he came to America. Years ago we had an African in our seminary. When it snowed one day, he went outside to see it, then excitedly texted his friends in Africa, "Snow really is absolutely white!" He was every bit as intelligent as any American white student--more so than most, probably!

So, what possible strategies are there for the translator to get "Lamb of God" into the target language without dumbing it down? (1) Transliterate with an explanatory footnote. (2) Invent a new word or phrase (sheep = animal like a goat with very white wool).

What brought this up in my class this morning was that in his translation homework, one student translated peripatomen (περιπατῶμεν, present active subjunctive, 1st plu.) in 1 John 1:6-7 as "we live." I allowed that, because the metaphor there of "walk" for "live" is not as vital theologically as "Lamb of God." It might even be considered an idiom rather than a metaphor.

Yes, my point, which you bring out, sort of, is that translation alone simply won't suffice. Transliteration is not really translation. Creating another creature is not really translation. Footnotes are not translation.

There is a whole world of understanding that mere translation simply cannot address. Exposition is very often required. Very often.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Believe it or not, in many languages the most problematic word to translate is θεός (theos), meaning God. There is a great controversy among translators into languages spoken by Muslim people groups as to whether or not "Allah" should be used. One of our MA students has started a new translation into Farsi, but says that Persian has a good word commonly used for God that is not "Allah." However, many other languages that are quite different from either Arabic or Persian use "Allah" for God. There are a lot of sources out there on this, so I'll not pontificate.

A discussion I know more about is the word used for God in Chinese and Japanese. The Japanese word is 神, with the onyomi (Chinese influenced reading) being shin, and the kunyomi (strictly Japanese reading) being kami. Fortunately, there is not much of a controversy about the right word in Japanese. Chinese, however, is a different matter. The controversy there is whether or not to use the generic word 神 (same as in Japanese, only pronounced shen), or to use the word for the original monotheistic God of China, 上帝 (Shang Di). You can actually buy copies of the main Chinese version, the Union Version, with the word for God being one or the other.

My thought is that normally a generic word for God is best. What must be avoided is a word that already has religious baggage (thus the Allah controversy). The translator must think: What will the reader be thinking about God when he or she reads this Bible?

The Muslim Allah-God controversy is unique. Islam arose hundreds of years after Christ, thousands after Abraham, but is related to both. The real controversy is over the reliability of the OT and NT, which Islam contests yet has no basis without.

The Bible reveals the true nature of God and man, reality as it really is. What a person thinks as he reads is always a problem and it is not the fault of the translator nor within his ability to manage.

God is not like the gods man imagines or creates and surrounds himself with, but it is a chore getting the message, or getting the message across. Without the Holy Spirit it is impossible.

 

[John of Japan]

There are a number of cultures in which the translation of θεοῦ υἱός, "Son of God," is problematic. As Yeshua1 pointed out, the term "Son of God" is said to be offensive to Muslims. However, it is a theological truth that I believe should not be compromised or fudged by a non-literal translation. Recently I was in a meeting where we discussed a possible translation by one of our grads into the language of a Muslim people group. One of our profs made the point that the concept of Jesus as "Son of God" is exactly what Muslims need to learn about Christ! They may be offended at first, but as the Holy Spirit works on their hearts, the truth will penetrate.

In the Japanese Bibles, the term used for Christ as the Son of God is Kami no Miko (神の御子). This might be translated as "Honorable Child of God," with the mi being honorific. This is problematic for several reasons (1) It demasculates Christ. (2) the word Miko is a homonym with both a girl's name and the Shinto term "Shrine Maiden" (巫女). (3) It is normally used for the children of the Japanese emperor.

In our Japanese New Testament we have used Goshisoku (ご子息), an honorific term which is politely used for someone else's son, say on their birthday. We chose this word because (1) it is undeniably masculine, and (2) is not normally used to refer to the Emperor's children.

The Chinese Union Bible word is better: 神的兒子, in which the first character is "God" (Shen), the second character is a possessive particle, and the last two are "son."

 

[John of Japan]

Yes, my point, which you bring out, sort of, is that translation alone simply won't suffice. Transliteration is not really translation. Creating another creature is not really translation. Footnotes are not translation.

True, transliteration is not really translation, but sometimes it is unavoidable.

There is a whole world of understanding that mere translation simply cannot address. Exposition is very often required. Very often.

Very true. Have you heard of relevance theory? This is a comparatively recent development in linguistics that says pretty much what you did here. It is important to know the relevance of a term or concept to the culture/society that is the target of the translation. For anyone not familiar with this theory, Ernst-August has a basic book out on it: Relevance Theory: A Guide to Successful Communication in Translation. It's published by SIL and UBS.

 

[John of Japan]

The Muslim Allah-God controversy is unique. Islam arose hundreds of years after Christ, thousands after Abraham, but is related to both. The real controversy is over the reliability of the OT and NT, which Islam contests yet has no basis without.

Unique? Perhaps. But there is a similar controversy in Chinese about Shen and Shang Di, two words for God. I wrote about this in Post #9. I'm sure there are other cultures with similar problems somewhere.

The Bible reveals the true nature of God and man, reality as it really is. What a person thinks as he reads is always a problem and it is not the fault of the translator nor within his ability to manage.

God is not like the gods man imagines or creates and surrounds himself with, but it is a chore getting the message, or getting the message across. Without the Holy Spirit it is impossible.

Very true.

 

[Yeshua1]

Good question. We actually discussed this in my Greek 102 class this morning.

Think about it. What does the metaphor "Lamb of God" represent? The truth that Jesus is our sacrifice for sin. If you call Him the "Kid Goat of God," the metaphor changes completely. (Remember the "scapegoat"?) Again, by translating "Kid Goat of God" where a people group does not have sheep, the translator is actually dumbing down the Bible, assuming that the target people are not intelligent enough to understand that there are animals they don't know about.

Here is an example of a 3rd world person who had never seen snow until he came to America. Years ago we had an African in our seminary. When it snowed one day, he went outside to see it, then excitedly texted his friends in Africa, "Snow really is absolutely white!" He was every bit as intelligent as any American white student--more so than most, probably! (By the way, we now have another young man in our seminary trained by this preacher. Discipleship in action!)

So, what possible strategies are there for the translator to get "Lamb of God" into the target language without dumbing it down? (1) Transliterate with an explanatory footnote. (2) Invent a new word or phrase (sheep = animal like a goat with very white wool).

What brought this up in my class this morning was that in his translation homework, one student translated peripatomen (περιπατῶμεν, present active subjunctive, 1st plu.) in 1 John 1:6-7 as "we live." I allowed that, because the metaphor there of "walk" for "live" is not as vital theologically as "Lamb of God." It might even be considered an idiom rather than a metaphor.

My understanding is that in that culture, goat was closest to what a lamb represented to them!

 

[Yeshua1]

There are a number of cultures in which the translation of θεοῦ υἱός, "Son of God," is problematic. As Yeshua1 pointed out, the term "Son of God" is said to be offensive to Muslims. However, it is a theological truth that I believe should not be compromised or fudged by a non-literal translation. Recently I was in a meeting where we discussed a possible translation by one of our grads into the language of a Muslim people group. One of our profs made the point that the concept of Jesus as "Son of God" is exactly what Muslims need to learn about Christ! They may be offended at first, but as the Holy Spirit works on their hearts, the truth will penetrate.

In the Japanese Bibles, the term used for Christ as the Son of God is Kami no Miko (神の御子). This might be translated as "Honorable Child of God," with the mi being honorific. This is problematic for several reasons (1) It demasculates Christ. (2) the word Miko is a homonym with both a girl's name and the Shinto term "Shrine Maiden" (巫女). (3) It is normally used for the children of the Japanese emperor.

In our Japanese New Testament we have used Goshisoku (ご子息), an honorific term which is politely used for someone else's son, say on their birthday. We chose this word because (1) it is undeniably masculine, and (2) is not normally used to refer to the Emperor's children.

The Chinese Union Bible word is better: 神的兒子, in which the first character is "God" (Shen), the second character is a possessive particle, and the last two are "son."

Think the big problem Muslims have with that term Son of God is that in their mind means God literally had sex with mary and produced jesus!

 

[Yeshua1]

There are a number of cultures in which the translation of θεοῦ υἱός, "Son of God," is problematic. As Yeshua1 pointed out, the term "Son of God" is said to be offensive to Muslims. However, it is a theological truth that I believe should not be compromised or fudged by a non-literal translation. Recently I was in a meeting where we discussed a possible translation by one of our grads into the language of a Muslim people group. One of our profs made the point that the concept of Jesus as "Son of God" is exactly what Muslims need to learn about Christ! They may be offended at first, but as the Holy Spirit works on their hearts, the truth will penetrate.

In the Japanese Bibles, the term used for Christ as the Son of God is Kami no Miko (神の御子). This might be translated as "Honorable Child of God," with the mi being honorific. This is problematic for several reasons (1) It demasculates Christ. (2) the word Miko is a homonym with both a girl's name and the Shinto term "Shrine Maiden" (巫女). (3) It is normally used for the children of the Japanese emperor.

In our Japanese New Testament we have used Goshisoku (ご子息), an honorific term which is politely used for someone else's son, say on their birthday. We chose this word because (1) it is undeniably masculine, and (2) is not normally used to refer to the Emperor's children.

The Chinese Union Bible word is better: 神的兒子, in which the first character is "God" (Shen), the second character is a possessive particle, and the last two are "son."

There are certain terms and words that should not be messed with in my mind, such as should never call God Allah, nor Jesus not Son of God!