Words have Meaning

[Van]

Liberals attack truth by redefining the meaning of words. Many times in scripture the statement is made that salvation is "through faith." Often the Greek preposition "dia" which means "by means of" or "by reason of" when used to indicate instrumentality, is nullified by liberal rather than literal interpretation.

If individuals were chosen for salvation unconditionally, then salvation would not be "through faith."

Thus when you see "through faith" (or by faith) the liberals claim the meaning is by reason of the gifted and instilled faith due to election before creation via irresistible grace.

However that gross addition to scripture, based purely on the speculation of people, is not how scripture actually reads.

And this repeated rewriting of scripture violates at least two Baptist distinctives, in that the view does not adhere to a literal interpretation, and that individual soul liberty to believe or not in Christ is denied.

Here are some of the verses that liberals rewrite via interpretation:
Romans 3:25
Galatians 3:14
Galatians 3:26
Ephesians 2:8
Ephesians 3:12
Colossians 2:12
2 Timothy 3:15

 

[SavedByGrace]

Liberals attack truth by redefining the meaning of words. Many times in scripture the statement is made that salvation is "through faith." Often the Greek preposition "dia" which means "by means of" or "by reason of" when used to indicate instrumentality, is nullified by liberal rather than literal interpretation.

If individuals were chosen for salvation unconditionally, then salvation would not be "through faith."

Thus when you see "through faith" (or by faith) the liberals claim the meaning is by reason of the gifted and instilled faith due to election before creation via irresistible grace.

However that gross addition to scripture, based purely on the speculation of people, is not how scripture actually reads.

And this repeated rewriting of scripture violates at least two Baptist distinctives, in that the view does not adhere to a literal interpretation, and that individual soul liberty to believe or not in Christ is denied.

Here are some of the verses that liberals rewrite via interpretation:
Romans 3:25
Galatians 3:14
Galatians 3:26
Ephesians 2:8
Ephesians 3:12
Colossians 2:12
2 Timothy 3:15

The root meaning of the Greek preposition, "dia", is "two, be-tween", as in "togetherness". This is clear from Galatians 1:1, where the prepostion is use once, for both Jesus Christ and the Father, who are seen as joint in their actions.

 

[Van]

The root meaning of the Greek preposition, "dia", is "two, be-tween", as in "togetherness". This is clear from Galatians 1:1, where the preposition is use once, for both Jesus Christ and the Father, who are seen as joint in their actions.

Yes Greek prepositions can have more than one object, such as through or by means of Jesus Christ and by means of the Father who raised Him from the dead. Paul saw the risen Christ on the road to Damascus, and that would not have happened except by means of the Father who raised Him. So Paul is an apostle sent not from people or by people, but by means of God the Son and God the Father.

 

[Reformed1689]

Liberals attack truth by redefining the meaning of words. Many times in scripture the statement is made that salvation is "through faith." Often the Greek preposition "dia" which means "by means of" or "by reason of" when used to indicate instrumentality, is nullified by liberal rather than literal interpretation.

If individuals were chosen for salvation unconditionally, then salvation would not be "through faith."

Thus when you see "through faith" (or by faith) the liberals claim the meaning is by reason of the gifted and instilled faith due to election before creation via irresistible grace.

However that gross addition to scripture, based purely on the speculation of people, is not how scripture actually reads.

And this repeated rewriting of scripture violates at least two Baptist distinctives, in that the view does not adhere to a literal interpretation, and that individual soul liberty to believe or not in Christ is denied.

Here are some of the verses that liberals rewrite via interpretation:
Romans 3:25
Galatians 3:14
Galatians 3:26
Ephesians 2:8
Ephesians 3:12
Colossians 2:12
2 Timothy 3:15

Liberals?

 

[Van]

Romans 3:25 NASB1995
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

God displayed Christ, high and lifted up on the Cross, as the means of salvation because of His life blood sacrifice, through or by reason of our faith, if credited by God as righteousness.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Romans 3:25 NASB1995
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

God displayed Christ, high and lifted up on the Cross, as the means of salvation because of His life blood sacrifice, through or by reason of our faith, if credited by God as righteousness.

Don't forget REPENTANCE

 

[Van]

Don't forget REPENTANCE

5) Faith alone refers to faithful faith, the faith from which faithfulness flows, or using James illustration, live faith not dead faith. Thus actual faith, of the kind God might choose to credit as righteousness, includes a commitment to stop going our own way and to strive to follow Christ upon the paths of righteousness.

Romans 3:25 NASB1995
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

God displayed Christ, high and lifted up on the Cross, as the means of salvation because of His life blood sacrifice, through or by reason of our faith, if credited by God as righteousness.​

 

[SavedByGrace]

5) Faith alone refers to faithful faith, the faith from which faithfulness flows, or using James illustration, live faith not dead faith. Thus actual faith, of the kind God might choose to credit as righteousness, includes a commitment to stop going our own way and to strive to follow Christ upon the paths of righteousness.​

And how does this answer me

 

[Van]

And how does this answer me

One of the ways truth is buried under obfuscation is to pretend personal incredulity and ask endless questions

Live faith includes a valid heart-felt commitment to repent and follow Christ.

5) Faith alone refers to faithful faith, the faith from which faithfulness flows, or using James illustration, live faith not dead faith. Thus actual faith, of the kind God might choose to credit as righteousness, includes a commitment to stop going our own way and to strive to follow Christ upon the paths of righteousness.

 

[SavedByGrace]

One of the ways truth is buried under obfuscation is to pretend personal incredulity and ask endless questions

Live faith includes a valid heart-felt commitment to repent and follow Christ.

5) Faith alone refers to faithful faith, the faith from which faithfulness flows, or using James illustration, live faith not dead faith. Thus actual faith, of the kind God might choose to credit as righteousness, includes a commitment to stop going our own way and to strive to follow Christ upon the paths of righteousness.

 

[Van]

Galatians 3:14 (NASB)
in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

First this verse says in order that we gain entry into Christ, that entry is "through or by reason of" faith. Next, entry, whether of a Jew or Gentile, results in receiving the Holy Spirit, for we are "sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, as a pledge to our future bodily redemption. And finally, this blessing was promised to Abraham and his descendants.

Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture has confined everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Therefore, for those who believe in Jesus Christ, as credited by God alone, receive the blessings of salvation including the indwelling of our "helper" the Holy Spirit. But know this, all these blessings are by reason of God crediting our faith as righteousness because words (such as dia) have meaning. And obviously, since our credited faith comes before obtaining the blessings of salvation, those doctrines that reverse the order are ignoring the very meanings of God's inspired word.

 

[Dave G]

Liberals attack truth by redefining the meaning of words.

I disagree, Van.
People ( not "liberals" ) who understand the Scriptures differently than others if they are being disobedient to the Lord, will attack those others based on how they each define and understand the words of Scripture.

But there are two groups of people that make up the visible body of Christ ( Matthew 13:36-43 ):
"Wheat" ( God's children, the saved ) and "tares" ( the devil's children masquerading as God's children ).
One of the differences between them is, God's people are not to attack anyone else for their beliefs,
they are to reprove and correct, in meekness and kindness ( 2 Timothy 2:24-26 ).

If that does not work, then they are to admonish them once and twice, and then to reject those who are divisive ( Titus 2:10-11 ).

So to me, "liberals" ( in the spiritual sense ) are religious people who walk all over other people with no regard for God's commands according to Christian conduct,
while "conservatives" ( in the spiritual sense ) are those in a heart-to-heart relationship with God and highly regard His commands according to Christian conduct found in places like Romans 12 and Colossians 3, as well as Titus 3:1-2 and several other places in His word...
Like 1 and 2 Timothy, where we find God's qualifications for the offices of elder ( bishop / pastor and deacon ).

What's more,
We as believers can actually know who these teachers are ( Matthew 7:15-20 ) by their spiritual fruits ( Galatians 5:19-23 ).

 

[Dave G]

If individuals were chosen for salvation unconditionally, then salvation would not be "through faith."

I'm sorry, but I find myself in disagreement with you.
Notice the Greek here in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, for example:

" ημεις δε οφειλομεν ευχαριστειν τω θεω παντοτε περι υμων αδελφοι ηγαπημενοι υπο κυριου οτι ειλετο υμας ο θεος απ αρχης εις σωτηριαν εν αγιασμω πνευματος και πιστει αληθειας:", Where "εν" is translated into English as "through", but literally means, "in".
Verse Analysis: 2 Thessalonians 2:13 - Textus Receptus Bibles

Here it is in my favored English translation, the AV:

" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ).

Again as in other threads, here I see that God's choice of the sinner is through, or "in" both sanctification of the Spirit and through, or "in" their belief of the truth.

That they were saved through ( " διά" ) faith in Ephesians 2:8, in no way negates God's choice of them to salvation through it, because a person's faith being the gift of God ( according to that very same verse ), means to me that His choice of them to salvation involved His gifts, it did not rely on what a person did not have ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2, Galatians 3:23 ) to begin with, and that they would not have if Jesus Christ did not author it and finish it for them ( Hebrews 12:2 ).

 

[Dave G]

Thus when you see "through faith" (or by faith) the liberals claim the meaning is by reason of the gifted and instilled faith due to election before creation via irresistible grace.

Yes, some do define it that way...

But your labeling of them as "liberals" seems to me to seek to denigrate them into a secondary class of human being which is somehow beneath you...
Which is not how God's people are to characterize their fellow man whom the Lord has commanded us to love as our neighbors.

Now, according to the definition of "through", I understand and define it as # 4 found here:
Definition of THROUGH,
While you appear to understand and define it as # 2.
Looking at the English word, "in", which is what "through" is a synonym of and what "εν" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 literally means, I see that you are agreeing with it in the sense of # 2 as found here:
Definition of IN,
While I am agreeing with it in the sense of # 3.

Stated another way, we appear to disagree with each other.
But, we can agree to disagree without resorting to derogatory terms like "liberals", can we not?

 

[Dave G]

However that gross addition to scripture, based purely on the speculation of people, is not how scripture actually reads.

I see that to you it is not, and I also recognize that, ultimately, this is an open forum;
and my authority to teach what I hold to be the truth stops right at the door of the other person's authority to understand the Scriptures for themselves, my friend.

Me telling you "how the Scripture actually reads" is my own privately-held opinion, for the most part, and in no way acts as any person's final authority for how they are to understand it.

In other words,
You are under no obligation to believe as I do, and I am under no obligation to believe as you do.
We are all individuals subject to the judgment of God, and have the prerogative to preach and teach what we believe the Lord lays upon our hearts and minds to teach and preach.

In addition,
Regardless of who is right or wrong, how we make our point and how we treat those who disagree with us should be in accordance with the Lord's commands regarding our conduct within the body of Christ.

 

[Dave G]

One of the ways truth is buried under obfuscation is to pretend personal incredulity and ask endless questions

In my personal observations of this world and its politics, for example,
I see that one of the ways that a person or group's genuinely-held objections or opinions are buried ( or attempt to be buried ),
is for those who hold an opposing position to then bury their opponents in false accusations and continually dismiss their points as obfuscation.

Essentially, they refuse to address their opponents' concerns fairly and with care,
and instead of patiently dealing with the opposition, they "stonewall" them and / or relegate them to the position of being inferior.
The Bible calls that "emulations" in Galatians 5:19-21 and it is a work of the flesh, and not a fruit of the Spirit.

On this forum, I see this behavior across the board with at least several individuals,
and it doesn't seem to matter whether they are "Calvinistic", "Traditionalist", "Arminian" or a combination of them.

My question to you is this:

Are you genuinely willing to be transparent, gentle, kind and patient with those that may oppose you ( as 2 Timothy 2:24-26 tells God's servants to do ),
Or are you going to view them as your mortal enemies who deserve nothing but contempt and seek to marginalize or otherwise silence them by any means necessary?

The reason that I say this is because I know from my studies of the Scriptures ( and from personal experience learned the hard way ) that people are watching those of us who teach and preach doctrine, my friend...
and if they are discerning, they will see ( and weigh ) each of us who "step up to the plate" based not only on how we handle the Scriptures, but on how we treat those that oppose us.


I wish you well, and may God bless you.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Liberals attack truth by redefining the meaning of words.

I agree with the above statement. Theological liberals abound on the BB. Of course some who think others are liberals are themselves the errant ones.

 

[Van]

I disagree, Van. SNIP

I kid you not, liberals try to redefine the meaning of liberal...

 

[Van]

I'm sorry, but I find myself in disagreement with you.

Here the liberal says "en" (the Greek preposition) is not literally used to show instrumentality, with the meaning of "by means of" or by reason of. However, anyone who can read a lexicon knows that claim is false. The literal (positional) meaning is "in" but the literal instrumentality usage meaning is through or by means of or by reason of.

"of the instrument or means by or with which anything is accomplished, owing to the influence of the Hebrew preposition בְּ much more common in the sacred writers than in secular authors. (cf. Winers Grammar, § 48, a. 3 d.; Buttmann, 181 (157) and 329 (283f), where we say with, by means of, by (through);with the dative, where the simple dative of the instrument might have been used, especially in the Revelation..."of things relating to the soul, as ἐν ἁγιασμῷ, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (Winer's Grammar, 417 (388));"​

 

[Van]

Yes, some do define it that way...

But your labeling of them as "liberals" seems to me to seek to denigrate them into a secondary class of human being which is somehow beneath you... SNIP

Now the truth, liberals redefine the meaning of words to conform text to their view, cannot be applied to those who redefine the inspired words of God. If it walks like a duck...