Words of Christ vs Words of God

[BobRyan]

For all of our differences most of us would agree that God the Son is in fact Jesus Christ and that God the Father - are together with God the Holy Spirit - the "God of the Bible".

The Bible does not present them as "three God's whose words conflict with each other". The Bible does not support the notion of "following the Word of the Holy Spirit but not the Word of God the Father".

It is easy to see that all such division and distinction is opposed to the Bible.

But what about in the case of Christ?

When Christ argues (pre-cross) that "the Father and I are ONE" and that "I do not speak on my own - my Words are the Father's Words" is He claiming that the words of scripture and the Words of Christ are in fact one seamless continuous whole - or can we contrast HIS words vs God's Words so that one replaces/contradicts/voids/abolishes/superceeds the other?


John 12
47 ""If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 "" He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
49 "" For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
50 ""I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.''

What say you?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

......or can we contrast HIS words vs God's Words so that one replaces/contradicts/voids/abolishes/superceeds the other?

HIS words are God's Words. There are NO contradictions. However, there are elaborations as well as changes made as God moves creation forward to the end purposes of His will.

One example would be the ending of sacrfices for sin. Jesus was the final sacrifice. No longer are Christians to make lamb sacrifices for their sins through priest. This would be an "abolishment".

Another would be regeneration. Until the Holy Spirit was given as a permenant indwellment to those receiving Christ as Lord and Savior there was no "born again". This would be a "replacement" of the written or "letter of the law" with the law of Christ now written on the hearts of those who receive Christ as Savior.

Now we follow Christ's teachings and those teachings explain the law, the purpose of the law, that it was to bring us to Christ, which is to bring us to the reality that you are doomed by the law and need saved, need grace, need to trust in God alone through Jesus Christ and His work alone.

Jesus elaborated on many things that were already spoken of and He explained many things that were being done or observed incorrectly. He also came to implement NEW things, this does not mean that He came to "contradict" what was written but rather to define what needed to be defined and to make some new changes for those who would believe He was the true Messiah, the Son of the Living God.

The Law still remains for the lawless (the unsaved, unregenerated) , however, for the one who trust in Christ (those born of God) the law has no power over them, they are freed from that curse. Praise God!

For the believer in Christ all things done are viewed by God through Christ. Oh what a wonderful Savior!

When we really see ourselves in the mirror as to what we really are without Christ, a worm, a hopeless sinner, then we can really appreceate the Grace of God. All Jesus, Zero me!

Paul cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

there are elaborations as well as changes made as God moves creation forward to the end purposes of His will.

One example would be the ending of sacrfices for sin. Jesus was the final sacrifice. No longer are Christians to make lamb sacrifices for their sins through priest. This would be an "abolishment".

Ok - so in Lev 23 we are told about the annual Sabbaths and the sacrifices associated with them - and in Hebrews 10 we are told that all sacrifices end at the cross.

Is this a case of "God vs the Holy Spirit"?

In 2Peter 1:21 we are told that the Holy Spirit is the one speaking in the OT.

2 Peter 1 –

20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God


And as we see the fact that the Holy Spirit is the source means this is "God speaking" it matters not if we call Him God the Holy Spirit, or God the Son or God the Father - it is "one God" that speaks.

It is not a case of one of the persons of the Godhead cancelling another one.


-------------------

In the example above the change happens when Christ on the cross fulfills the shadow types of sacrifices.

Is there another point in time when changes took place according to scripture?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Another would be regeneration. Until the Holy Spirit was given as a permenant indwellment to those receiving Christ as Lord and Savior there was no "born again". This would be a "replacement" of the written or "letter of the law" with the law of Christ now written on the hearts of those who receive Christ as Savior.

Now we follow Christ's teachings and those teachings explain the law, the purpose of the law, that it was to bring us to Christ, which is to bring us to the reality that you are doomed by the law and need saved, need grace, need to trust in God alone through Jesus Christ and His work alone.

The practice of Baptism was started before the days of John the baptizer. It was started by Jews who thought that gentile converts needed to be washed - clean.

Then John came along and pointed out that Jews themselves also needed to be washed clean. At that time both John and the disciples of Christ baptized.

Are you saying that the Jews were replacing the written Word of God with Baptism? Are you saying John the baptizer was replacing the written Word of God with baptism?

Are you saying that Christ was doing this during his ministry - cancelling the Word of God with Baptism?

Or are you saying that the OT text is now written on the heart?

Are you saying that in the OT God did not state that His commands should be written on the heart? Or are you saying that if anyone did accept that in the OT they were exempt from the text of the OT?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 2 –
26 So [b]if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?[/b]
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For [b]he is not a Jew who is one [b[/B]]outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh[/B].
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter[/b]; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Deuteronomy 10:16
" So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer.

Leviticus 26:
40 'If they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their forefathers, in their unfaithfulness which they committed against Me, and also in their acting with hostility against Me--
41 I also was acting with hostility against them, to bring them into the land of their enemies--or if their uncircumcised heart becomes humbled so that they then make amends for their iniquity,

God’s Word is to be written on the heart – from the very beginning – because there is only “one Gospel”

Deuteronomy 6:6
" These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart.

Deuteronomy 11:18
" You shall therefore impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

Deuteronomy 32:46
he said to them, " Take to your heart all the words with which I am warning you today, which you shall command your sons to observe carefully, even all the words of this law.


Obedience is to be from the heart –
Deuteronomy 30:2
and you return to the LORD your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons,

Deuteronomy 30:6
"Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Deuteronomy 30:10
if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.

Deuteronomy 30:14
"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

Deuteronomy 30:17
"But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,


Deuteronomy 30:17
15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
17 "But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.



http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=32&verse=46&version=49&context=verse

 

[DQuixote]

Thanks, Steaver. Good, heartfelt, blessed response. :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

If you stop and think about it - this goes along with the "ONE Gospel" teaching of Paul in Gal 1:6-11

Romans 2 –
26 So [b]if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?[/b]
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For [b]he is not a Jew who is one [b[/b]]outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh[/b].
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter[/b]; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Deuteronomy 10:16
" So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer.

Leviticus 26:
40 'If they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their forefathers, in their unfaithfulness which they committed against Me, and also in their acting with hostility against Me--
41 I also was acting with hostility against them, to bring them into the land of their enemies--or if their uncircumcised heart becomes humbled so that they then make amends for their iniquity,

God’s Word is to be written on the heart – from the very beginning – because there is only “one Gospel”

Deuteronomy 6:6
" These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart.

Deuteronomy 11:18
" You shall therefore impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

Deuteronomy 32:46
he said to them, " Take to your heart all the words with which I am warning you today, which you shall command your sons to observe carefully, even all the words of this law.


Obedience is to be from the heart –
Deuteronomy 30:2
and you return to the LORD your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons,

Deuteronomy 30:6
"Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

 

[steaver]

Bob, you posted.....

Ok - so in Lev 23 we are told about the annual Sabbaths and the sacrifices associated with them - and in Hebrews 10 we are told that all sacrifices end at the cross.

Is this a case of "God vs the Holy Spirit"?

No. There is never a case where "God vs the Holy Spirit". Nor does recognizing that God does and has made changes mean that one is putting God against Himself. God tells us the future just enough to understand events as they unfold, but only hindsight is 20/20.

The practice of Baptism was started before the days of John the baptizer. It was started by Jews who thought that gentile converts needed to be washed - clean.

Then John came along and pointed out that Jews themselves also needed to be washed clean. At that time both John and the disciples of Christ baptized.

Are you saying that the Jews were replacing the written Word of God with Baptism? Are you saying John the baptizer was replacing the written Word of God with baptism?

Are you saying that Christ was doing this during his ministry - cancelling the Word of God with Baptism?

Or are you saying that the OT text is now written on the heart?

Are you saying that in the OT God did not state that His commands should be written on the heart? Or are you saying that if anyone did accept that in the OT they were exempt from the text of the OT?

In Christ,

Bob

As you point out, God's law was always to be observed from the heart. However, all have sinned and fall short. The law that was intended to bring life brought death because no one could obey the law from the heart. Furthermore the priest failed to teach the law correctly to the people.

So, God said,

Hbr 8:10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hbr 8:11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hbr 8:12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hbr 8:13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


In a nutshell, the letter of the law did not bring life to anyone who tried, however desperately, to follow the law. The only way it could bring life was to place it directly into the hearts and minds through rebirth or regeneration and only then could the spirit of the law be followed perfectly through the relationship with Jesus Christ consistently purifying our imperfectness.

"Born again" is post cross only. It is a "new thing". The old covenant has past and the new covenant is in force, that is the receiving of Jesus Christ through rebirth and having the spirit of the law written on the heart.

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

The NT stand on God's Commandments is not "they didn't actually work so forget about them".

I Jn 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14
14[b] Blessed are they that do his commandments,[/b] that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I Jn 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

 

[BobRyan]

Question - Why do the NT writers take that stand as seen in the texts above instead of saying "forget the commandments of God - they are so Old Covenant and that is all past. "

The answer is that EVEN in the NT and in the New Covenant - it is the SAME Law of God the same COMMANDMENTS of God that are "written on the tablets of the human heart"!!

That is right - you STILL have to serve one true God and you STILL have to tell the truth and you STILL have to Honor parents and there STILL "Remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the People of God" JUST like the one that existed during the time of King David in the writing of the Psalms.

God's commandments - remain.

And just as they were not a "means of salvation" in the OT - so they CONTINUE to NOT BE a means of salvation in the NT!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

And just as they were not a "means of salvation" in the OT - so they CONTINUE to NOT BE a means of salvation in the NT!

in Christ,

Bob

Amen.

So tell us what happens to the Christian who fails to keep the Sabbath or fails to honor their mother and father or such?

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Are you talking about coming in on the short side of these texts?

I Jn 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14
14[b] Blessed are they that do his commandments,[/b] that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I Jn 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.


Or are you talking about Gal 3 - and the fact that the law was never given as a means of salvation?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

It appears that you have created a contradiction for yourself in your own mind. You say that keeping the commandments is NOT a means to salvation. But then asked the consequences of NOT keeping the commandments and you post scripture that you believe tells us that the commandments do give eternal life. Are you sure of what you do believe?
Here is one that you posted....Rev 22:14
14[b] Blessed are they that do his commandments,[/b] that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I thought you said that keeping the law is not a means to salvation? According to this reference given by you it appears that you believe otherwise. According to this scripture keeping the commandments is what gives one the right to the tree of life. But you said that keeping the commandments is NOT a means to life. Which is it?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Actually I never said "commandments do give eternal life"

I merely quoted some texts and asked if you were talking about them.

(me thinks the lady protests too much)

 

[BobRyan]

Here is one that you posted....Rev 22:14
14[b] Blessed are they that do his commandments,[/b] that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I thought you said that keeping the law is not a means to salvation? According to this reference given by you it appears that you believe otherwise.

Is it your argument that if I do not think the commandments are able to save that I should not be quoting Rev 22:14??

Are you getting into a "good bible vs bad bible" line of thinking???

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Is it your argument that if I do not think the commandments are able to save that I should not be quoting Rev 22:14??

Are you getting into a "good bible vs bad bible" line of thinking???

In Christ,

Bob

I have no argument. I only asked you questions that I know you will dodge because a straight answer would obviously make your beliefs look contradicting.

Your are a bit too easy brother :thumbs: . It's like debating an atheist ( not implying you are one) when you ask them exploritory questions that they know they cannot answer and they always dodge it by throwing questions back or diverting to other subjects.

JUST ANSWER A QUESTION WITHOUT A QUESTION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :wavey:

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

The reason you are dodging my question is that it goes straight to your need to ignore the scriptures listed. You are practically acccusing me of authoring them!!

Originally Posted by steaver
Here is one that you posted....Rev 22:14
14[b] Blessed are they that do his commandments,[/b] that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I thought you said that keeping the law is not a means to salvation? According to this reference given by you it appears that you believe otherwise.

Notice in the quote above -- you claim that the mere quote of them is arguing for "salvation by works"




It shows a glaring gap in your theology and your own need to slice up "good bible vs bad bible".

You have exposed the weakness in your own argument.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Sorry Bob for not getting back more timely. I get soo busy at times, but rest assured I will do my best to get back or to not forget if it has been too long.

The reason you are dodging my question is that it goes straight to your need to ignore the scriptures listed. You are practically acccusing me of authoring them!!

I never dodge any questions. If I missed one let me know and I will answer. However, please answer my questions before asking your own.

Notice in the quote above -- you claim that the mere quote of them is arguing for "salvation by works"

It shows a glaring gap in your theology and your own need to slice up "good bible vs bad bible".

You have exposed the weakness in your own argument.


in Christ,

Bob

Not at all. I merely asked you to elaborate so I could understand what you believed and if you believed the verse applied to salvation since you quoted it as an answer to a previous question.

Maybe we should back up. Here is what I asked from a quote of yours....

And just as they were not a "means of salvation" in the OT - so they CONTINUE to NOT BE a means of salvation in the NT!

in Christ,

Bob

(Steaver)....Amen.

So tell us what happens to the Christian who fails to keep the Sabbath or fails to honor their mother and father or such?

God Bless!

Then you posted scripture and asked two questions.....

Are you talking about coming in on the short side of these texts?

I Jn 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14
14[b] Blessed are they that do his commandments,[/b] that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I Jn 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.


Or are you talking about Gal 3 - and the fact that the law was never given as a means of salvation?

In Christ,

Bob

OK, here i will begin again since you asked me two questions to clarify my question.

Q#1....No. Q#2......No

I am asking what happens to a Christian (that is one who trust in Christ and has been born again) who fails to keep the Sabbath or any other commandment?

I'll give you some choices. Does this Christian go to purgatory, does this Christain suffer some consequences while in the flesh, does this Christian suffer some losses at the judgment seat of Christ? Do you understand what I am asking you?

We both agree, as you said, "And just as they were not a "means of salvation" in the OT - so they CONTINUE to NOT BE a means of salvation in the NT!

Therefore I ask you, in your view of scripture, if the commandments are not a means of salvation, then what are they for and what happens to those who break them?

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Fails as in "refuses to keep or "fails" as in "a heart that is FOR God but war within (Romans 7) that sometimes results in transgression"??

You need to be clear as to whether you are trying to justify open rebellion or not.

In Romans 3 Paul shows clearly that our faith "ESTABLISHES the Law of God rather than abolishing it"

In Romans 7 Paul heartily agrees with God's Law in his mind (his new birth - new creation - ) but he sees "sin in his members" at war with the law of his mind. (Not so as to justify adultery within the church but still a source of falling, sin and failure).

On the other hand open rebellion is addressed by John in 1John 2 as already posted -- repeatedly.

1John 2:1 "These things I write to you that you SIN NOT - but IF anyone does sin we HAVE an advocate with the Father"

seems like all bases are covered.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

seems like all bases are covered.

In Christ,

Bob

In Christ indeed they are :thumbs:

God Bless!